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Amiga 2000
17 messages in this thread
Fine. Don't read my messages. About AmigaDos, you may be one of a few
select group of evaders who choose to believe AmigaDos is acceptably fast;
everyone else knows that it is slow as molasses. John Foust has some
interesting remarks and benchmarks in the latest issue of Amazing Computing
which objectively bear the obvious out.
(Is this the John Freeman of Freefall Associates?) Yes, I agree that the
hard disk reviews in the latest issue of Amazing Computing bear out
slowness that few people recognize. To class people as "evaders" implies
they are aware of something, but hide it. I don't think most Amiga users
are aware of the hard disk speeds of other computers. To me, the most
interesting part of the review was research into the upcoming fast hard
disk software they (CBM) are working on. The (current) file system was
optimized for 3 1/2 floppies. It is unfortunate these constraints are now
felt on Amiga hard disks. I do think the Amiga can reach AT-class speeds
in hard disk access.
No, no connection to "Freefall Associates". (Hmmm, that sounds
interesting. Who are they? Private space development?) My classification
of an individual as an evader is certainly a considered one; I am well
aware of what the term implies. An innocent person who isn't aware of the
issue would be curious, not launch ad-hominems and obscenities, which I
think is the tip-off of someone who is certainly aware of it, has some
personal stake in the issue, and doesn't want to acknowledge it. An
evader.
It's funny that MSDOS also has hierarchical directories and works pretty
fast, at least for larger block transfers, for both floppies and hard
disks. It can get fragmented, but there are several programs that can
un-fragment, such as the new Norton U's. I was heartened to read a couple
of days ago in Amazing Computing that Commodore has hired someone to speed
up the DOS, in acknowledge ment of the very issue I was talking about.
Offhand I can see using more RAM buffering of the directory as a way to
speed up disk I/O.
A question. Since you appear to be one of the few who present facts about
the Amiga world rather than trying to present a uniformly rosy picture
about the events happening ("The Emperor has such fine clothes" syndrome),
perhaps you could say a little something about your observations on the
implication of the continuining shake up in Commodore top management; the
high price of the A2000; broken delivery dates; and other factors, on the
future health of the Amiga market.
By the way, is there any possibility that another company could hire the
true minds who developed the Amiga, who were canned by Commodore, to
continue the Amiga once Commodore has royally screwed the whole market up
with their continuing foul ups? It would be a shame to have nothing but the
8086 to work on, although I prefer a Taiwan clone that produces like hell
for 25% of the cost of an A2000, at $2000 base price.
Freefall Associates developed the Archon series of games, I was at their
home a while back, I thought perhaps we'd met!
Which shake-up in Commodore? 🙂 The overall, long-term trend of 90 to
120 day turnover in some departments? The recent manager shake-up?
Seriously, Irving Gould put it best at the press conference at COMDEX. He
said, "If you are always in a turn-around mode, you end up going in
circles." I think he's getting tired of Commodore's sloth as well. I
think broken delivery dates are a symptom of classic bureaucratic
non-communication between marketing and engineering.
I think Commodore has overpriced the 2000 to make more money, and to
inflate the price to put it in a different league of computers, such as the
new IBM and Mac machines, and out of the league of cheap clones and home
computers. They do have 80286 and 68020 boards in development, so you'll
be able to soup up your 2000 in ways impossible in a vanilla clone.
Someday, they'll drop the price. That will help the future of the Amiga
market.
The future is now. If the Amiga doesn't sell, there will be no future. If
they drop the price too late (as IBM did with the PC Jr) there will be no
market.
The future is now. If the Amiga doesn't sell, there will be no future. If
they drop the price too late (as IBM did with the PC Jr) there will be no
market.
Freefall Associates developed the Archon series of games, I was at their
home a while back, I thought perhaps we'd met!
Which shake-up in Commodore? 🙂 The overall, long-term trend of 90 to
120 day turnover in some departments? The recent manager shake-up?
Seriously, Irving Gould put it best at the press conference at COMDEX. He
said, "If you are always in a turn-around mode, you end up going in
circles." I think he's getting tired of Commodore's sloth as well. I
think broken delivery dates are a symptom of classic bureaucratic
non-communication between marketing and engineering.
I think Commodore has overpriced the 2000 to make more money, and to
inflate the price to put it in a different league of computers, such as the
new IBM and Mac machines, and out of the league of cheap clones and home
computers. They do have 80286 and 68020 boards in development, so you'll
be able to soup up your 2000 in ways impossible in a vanilla clone.
Someday, they'll drop the price. That will help the future of the Amiga
market.
I see two very important trends in the Amiga market. One is desktop video.
I think it is an underestimated market, despite the seemingly-overly-rosy
projections. The Amiga can do well there. The Amiga could do to home
video production what home movies did to film. Two is the Amiga 500, which
I think will sell very well for the next 18 months, boosting the software
market. By that time, Commodore will have a higher res machine, probably a
68020 with 256 colors in low res, and 1024 by 1000 resolution, with two or
four megs of CHIP memory, and still software compatible.
As for the original Amiga team, they have moved on to other jobs. Three or
four of them are at Apple. Some are at Mitsumi. Another is at Cubicomp.
Others are sitting around, playing Guru. I'm not hot on re-hiring the
original team. Sure, they were magic, but magic is for hire all over the
valley. There are mistakes and deficiencies in the Amiga, and it may take
new blood to make it even better.
I am still puzzled at the huge price discrepancy between the Amiga 500
and the 2000; $1300 if my information is correct. Incidentally the local
Amiga dealer had a non-functional AMiga 500 on display here. I asked why it
wasn't turned on. Evidently the power supply was utterly smashed up inside,
with cold solder joints, according to their technician. I hope that's not a
trend.
I never take talent for granted, myself. "Magic" is another word for saying
the thing in question is mysterious and unquantifiable. It doesn't say
much. I don't necessarily see keeping on the original design team on the
payroll as a liability, even if you're hiring new people. Who's going to
teach the new people?
For that matter, what progress has Commodore really made on the Amiga in
the past 2 years? Was it apathy on the part of the designers, or on the
part of Commodore management? I suppose it's history now. The major design
flaw I see was choosing Metacomco to write system software. Presuming that
Commodore is hiring new creative minds, something I seriously doubt
considering the current accountant mentality in force at the moment, they
would be well off hiring someone who is an expert in operating system
design, including efficient disk operating systems.
A hardware guru or two who can design an efficient, relatively inexpensive
68020 machine with even better graphics would be good. One can get 68020's
for $200 from Jameco, now, quantity one. A 68020 machine can't be all that
expensive to make in quantity if it's designed right.
The difference in suggested retail price is about $1300. For that $1300
you get another 512K, a clock/calendar, detached keyboard, Zorro and clone
slots, video slot, and room for an extra internal 3.5" and 5 1/4" hard or
floppy drive.
Is this sufficient additional capability for the price? It may be, and it
may not. The marketplace will decide, and will decide in a way that will
tell CBM whether they have made a mistake or not. I think that if it does
not sell, that the difference (certainly can't be called a "discrepancy")
will become less. Your vote will count, as will everyone elses. You will
either vote yes by buying or no by refraining from doing so.
As for your comments on the Amiga in general, and with respect to the
filing system in particular, I have to agree with a few of the things you
say, but also think that there are things that you are not taking into
account, such as file safety, the multitasking nature of the machine, and
probably more.
You will also find that many of us here are not always "painting rosy
pictures", and do not hesitate to call CBM on perceived mistakes. Sometimes
we have been right, and sometimes we have been educated to the reasons
behind the decisions.
The difference in suggested retail price is about $1300. For that $1300
you get another 512K, a clock/calendar, detached keyboard, Zorro and clone
slots, video slot, and room for an extra internal 3.5" and 5 1/4" hard or
floppy drive.
Is this sufficient additional capability for the price? It may be, and it
may not. The marketplace will decide, and will decide in a way that will
tell CBM whether they have made a mistake or not. I think that if it does
not sell, that the difference (certainly can't be called a "discrepancy")
will become less. Your vote will count, as will everyone elses. You will
either vote yes by buying or no by refraining from doing so.
As for your comments on the Amiga in general, and with respect to the
filing system in particular, I have to agree with a few of the things you
say, but also think that there are things that you are not taking into
account, such as file safety, the multitasking nature of the machine, and
probably more.
You will also find that many of us here are not always "painting rosy
pictures", and do not hesitate to call CBM on perceived mistakes. Sometimes
we have been right, and sometimes we have been educated to the reasons
behind the decisions.
I used the word "magic" in a general adjective sense, it meant "special". I
think there is evidence that the Amiga people weren't the best at their jobs;
in fact, your arguments about the flaws of the system are cases in point.
They've got consultants in tow on the West Coast, including some of the
original team. Enough of them are still around to relate oral history to new
hirelings, if necessary. The lab notes and programs still exist, subject to
bit-rot. As for new creations, they have made the 500 and 2000, which included
some changes to the custom Amiga chipset. They have continued work on higher
res graphics chips; they have a 68020 board in the works. They have shifted
some engineering to Germany. Part of this was political, having to due with
the rapid spread of rumors in the US Amiga community, which hurt sales and
decreased trust in dealer's word.
I used the word "magic" in a general adjective sense, it meant "special". I
think there is evidence that the Amiga people weren't the best at their jobs;
in fact, your arguments about the flaws of the system are cases in point.
They've got consultants in tow on the West Coast, including some of the
original team. Enough of them are still around to relate oral history to new
hirelings, if necessary. The lab notes and programs still exist, subject to
bit-rot. As for new creations, they have made the 500 and 2000, which included
some changes to the custom Amiga chipset. They have continued work on higher
res graphics chips; they have a 68020 board in the works. They have shifted
some engineering to Germany. Part of this was political, having to due with
the rapid spread of rumors in the US Amiga community, which hurt sales and
decreased trust in dealer's word.
I am still puzzled at the huge price discrepancy between the Amiga 500
and the 2000; $1300 if my information is correct. Incidentally the local
Amiga dealer had a non-functional AMiga 500 on display here. I asked why it
wasn't turned on. Evidently the power supply was utterly smashed up inside,
with cold solder joints, according to their technician. I hope that's not a
trend.
I never take talent for granted, myself. "Magic" is another word for saying
the thing in question is mysterious and unquantifiable. It doesn't say
much. I don't necessarily see keeping on the original design team on the
payroll as a liability, even if you're hiring new people. Who's going to
teach the new people?
For that matter, what progress has Commodore really made on the Amiga in
the past 2 years? Was it apathy on the part of the designers, or on the
part of Commodore management? I suppose it's history now. The major design
flaw I see was choosing Metacomco to write system software. Presuming that
Commodore is hiring new creative minds, something I seriously doubt
considering the current accountant mentality in force at the moment, they
would be well off hiring someone who is an expert in operating system
design, including efficient disk operating systems.
A hardware guru or two who can design an efficient, relatively inexpensive
68020 machine with even better graphics would be good. One can get 68020's
for $200 from Jameco, now, quantity one. A 68020 machine can't be all that
expensive to make in quantity if it's designed right.
I see two very important trends in the Amiga market. One is desktop video.
I think it is an underestimated market, despite the seemingly-overly-rosy
projections. The Amiga can do well there. The Amiga could do to home
video production what home movies did to film. Two is the Amiga 500, which
I think will sell very well for the next 18 months, boosting the software
market. By that time, Commodore will have a higher res machine, probably a
68020 with 256 colors in low res, and 1024 by 1000 resolution, with two or
four megs of CHIP memory, and still software compatible.
As for the original Amiga team, they have moved on to other jobs. Three or
four of them are at Apple. Some are at Mitsumi. Another is at Cubicomp.
Others are sitting around, playing Guru. I'm not hot on re-hiring the
original team. Sure, they were magic, but magic is for hire all over the
valley. There are mistakes and deficiencies in the Amiga, and it may take
new blood to make it even better.
No, no connection to "Freefall Associates". (Hmmm, that sounds
interesting. Who are they? Private space development?) My classification
of an individual as an evader is certainly a considered one; I am well
aware of what the term implies. An innocent person who isn't aware of the
issue would be curious, not launch ad-hominems and obscenities, which I
think is the tip-off of someone who is certainly aware of it, has some
personal stake in the issue, and doesn't want to acknowledge it. An
evader.
It's funny that MSDOS also has hierarchical directories and works pretty
fast, at least for larger block transfers, for both floppies and hard
disks. It can get fragmented, but there are several programs that can
un-fragment, such as the new Norton U's. I was heartened to read a couple
of days ago in Amazing Computing that Commodore has hired someone to speed
up the DOS, in acknowledge ment of the very issue I was talking about.
Offhand I can see using more RAM buffering of the directory as a way to
speed up disk I/O.
A question. Since you appear to be one of the few who present facts about
the Amiga world rather than trying to present a uniformly rosy picture
about the events happening ("The Emperor has such fine clothes" syndrome),
perhaps you could say a little something about your observations on the
implication of the continuining shake up in Commodore top management; the
high price of the A2000; broken delivery dates; and other factors, on the
future health of the Amiga market.
By the way, is there any possibility that another company could hire the
true minds who developed the Amiga, who were canned by Commodore, to
continue the Amiga once Commodore has royally screwed the whole market up
with their continuing foul ups? It would be a shame to have nothing but the
8086 to work on, although I prefer a Taiwan clone that produces like hell
for 25% of the cost of an A2000, at $2000 base price.
(Is this the John Freeman of Freefall Associates?) Yes, I agree that the
hard disk reviews in the latest issue of Amazing Computing bear out
slowness that few people recognize. To class people as "evaders" implies
they are aware of something, but hide it. I don't think most Amiga users
are aware of the hard disk speeds of other computers. To me, the most
interesting part of the review was research into the upcoming fast hard
disk software they (CBM) are working on. The (current) file system was
optimized for 3 1/2 floppies. It is unfortunate these constraints are now
felt on Amiga hard disks. I do think the Amiga can reach AT-class speeds
in hard disk access.