#PLease Read
33 messages in this thread
Obviously this whole subject is far beyond help, but I wanted to say
a couple of things to the forum at large. In the last few years I
have never found it necessary to make any reference to my connections
to Autodesk, and I think that forum regulars would find it difficult
to find any reference to that relationship that has originated from
me.
Over the last few days, the subject of thread headers has come up
several times and the last few times it has come up, I have been very
vocal about my feelings on the subject. So far outside of a
"threadmaster", I haven't seen anyone say that they felt that the
structure of the forum threads should be changed. I have been more
than a little bit upset by the fact that an outside party has deemed
it his priviledge to try to restructure the ways that we post
messages and interact with one another. I have been so vocal on this
subject because I truly feel that the only reason this forum thrives
is because the members interact to such a large extent. At the last
SigGraph, forum members arranged a party for the whole forum, and it
was phenomenal.
Whenever someone enters a question on the forum, the forum regulars
go to every length possible to answer the questions and make the
visitor as comfortable as possible. The vast majority of questions
are answered by forum members who actually pay their hard earned
money to try to help others. It seems that If I post a review of a
product and four or five of us, then discuss the various aspects of
that review, then we should have the right to take the thread
wherever it may lead. If John T. or someone feels like posting a
funny comment or anecdote in response to my message then there should
be that freedom. In fact if John E decides to use the message to
respond about the price of tea in china then he should be able to do
that too. If I wasn't looking forward to hearing whatever evryone
else wanted to add then I wouldn't take the time to start threads.
It aggravates me for someone else to tell me that we can't keep doing
it that way because it may not be the most convenient for someone who
wants to quickly pop on and download my thoughts, and that is
actually what these threads are, our thoughts. If I carry on a
conversation with someone, and someone else wants to eaves drop or
record the conversation, then they'll just have to listen to the
whole conversation to get the little tidbit they want. I personally
refuse to editt my conversation or break it into a thousand pieces so
that someone else can easily take what they want from it.
The threadmaster refers to people being pissed off because they
download a thread with a certain heading and it isn't quite what they
wanted, or maybe they have to flip through some erroneous comments
about an unrelated topic, well hey, I'll be extremely pissed off if I
have to spend inordinate amounts of time trying to break my thoughts
into pieces for the convenience of someone who has no desire to
become part of the conversation, only to record it, and play it back
later.
I apologize to the forum members who have been exposed to my negative
responses lately, but in my defense I must say that I feel that the
presence of forum regulars accounts for 85%+ of all traffic on this
forum, and when it comes to making a decision about how an issue
should be handled, then whoever is in charge of the decision should
make darn sure that they take into account the invaluable service
that the regular members of this forum do for tech support with
Autodesk Multimedia products.
Thanks For Listening, Paul
I, too, am getting extremely furious about certain events lately.
Dave TM jumping in here is just the last straw for me, and I'm really
losing my patience and my joy in participating in this forum.
I guess certain TM's feel that people who happen to download once in a
while and are pissed off complaining are in some way more correct and
important than people who spend a lot of time and effort here and who
are also getting REALLY pissed off.
Well, I hope those TM's are willing to answer all the friggin
questions on this forum, because if this keeps up, and they really
start to fragment threads, I'm outta here!
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John,
>> Well, I hope those TM's are willing to answer all the friggin questions on
this forum, <<
No John, I hope their willing to answer to the forum when a sh*tload
of us complain to Compuserve about the fascist tactics of the
Threadmasters. Its outrageous and I've seen it once too often! What
they think the people working this forum don't know what they're
doing? How outrageously presumptious!!! One of the most active forums
on the system, with one of the largest software companies in the
world, and the best staff around. Amazing!
You bring up a good point. I really hope anyone with the power
(read: software) to change things on this forum takes a quick
reality check. I mean what's it going to take?
>> I really hope anyone with the power …. to change things on this
forum takes a quick reality check. << I think its not quite that
simple as the staff here is working under some curious guidelines
without the same amount of authority as our "visitor". But
Compuserve, is no longer the only game in town. And if they want to
keep good clients like ADESK, they're going to have to be at least
courteous! I think it very presumptious for an occasional "visitor"
to jump in directly like that. Poor manners if nothing else, but
actually its rude.
Guys…
<< all the previous stuff…>>
*I* made the suggestion. *I* see (daily) what you guys do for me
(product support). *I* don't want to cramp your style. *I* even
like it. *I* am on your(free association) side.
jonas[..still thinking of 12,000 messages/month..argh..]
Jonas, I'm in 100% agreement with you, too. I think we cleared things up
nicely. It's Dave Byrnes popping in here, etc… that pissed me off so much
=-(
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
Thanks Alot! I've gotten so bent out of shape on this subject that my
next course of Action is to write a detailed letter to Carol B., This
whole thing has gotten way outta hand, and I feel that the true
feelings of Autodesk are not necessarily in line with TM's who not
only don't spend time in this forum, but feel it's their rights to
overrule the forum regulars.
The idea that I may be expected to change my method of providing tech
support and insights on this forum simply because someone has a TM
attached to their name is beyond consideration.
There are few things in life that get me more upset than someone
trying to force their ideas on me simply because they have been
indiscriminately given a title. In a "clout" war, I may or may not
win, but daggone it I'll certainly create enough noise so that
everyone will be fully aware of my opinion.
Paul
P.S. – It would seem to me that if it was the job of the TM's to
neatly package threads for downloading, then it should be their jobs
to sort through the messages, and clean them up after the thread has
scrolled. It doesn't make since for any of the forum members to
change the way the currently comunicate.
Good Grief, you guys.
It seems to me that a simple, quite polite reminder has been
interpreted as a attempted fascist takeover of the ASOFT forum.
Do we really need to throw tea into the harbor?
Don't you think it might look a leetle bit silly to write a complaint
letter to Carol Bartz about this?
Haven't we got other — more important — things to do?
(I know I'm going to be sorry I got into this)
Alec (I'm already sorry I got into this) Jason
Considering that this is "THE" technical support solution for an
entire division of products from an extremely large corporation, I do
not in any way think it is "silly" to express extreme disatisfaction
in the way that it handled. Let's see now, close to $100,000 with of
software, a couple grand a year in CIS bills,……… nope, I don't
think it's silly.
Hey guys… this forum is supposed to be a place for people to feel
some community with other 3DS-ers. Please chill out a bit — life is
way too short for you, Paul and John to get bent out of shape over
any of this. There's no "big brother" here that's trying to tell you
what to do.
One of the things I like about all these messages is the adventure of
mulling through them, not always knowing what they will contain
(based on some of their bizarre and unusual headers). Sometimes
they're just meaningless banter, other times real gems come out out
of threads started from off the wall things like weather, social
comments, and so on. I like things the way they are, semi-structured
(3DS, take 5, etc) but without many other constraints. I don't know
where this thread started, but it certainly has seemed to trigger
some people who spend A LOT of time on this forum, much of it freely
HELPING OTHERS. I'd really hate to see that kind of spirit dampened
for whatever reason.
You're probably right, Gary, we all need a little fresh air <g>. I
thought the issue was settled, but when Dave Byrnes TM, with the
software and authority to intervene on threads, etc…, jumps in
completely out of the blue and drags the issue back up from the grave
it appears to me that a "big brother" has spoken. I'm glad to hear
that I am wrong. And have a great day off! =)
>> …Dave Byrnes TM…
Why would anyone trademark their name? Does that mean that there can
be no other Dave Byrnes in the world? Or, perhaps all the other Dave
Byrnes are vulnerable to lawsuit? Seems odd… Should the heading to
this message be changed to "Trademarked Names"?
I believe the TM stands for Threadmaster, which means he has a free
flag to this and the ACAD forum, and can shuffle things about as he
sees fit. An interesting power for someone that is rarely on this
forum.
Oh, so the TM doesn't actually mean "TradeMark." I'm glad you cleared
this up, John. Alec Jason PP (Patent Pending)
<g>
(That's the <g> I guess I should have put on my last message.)
– J
John, Paul,Etc.
PMJI – I just had to add my $.02. 'Don't go no where and keep
on doing it the way you were doin' it'…I for one am real happy the
way its been and your valuable participation…Thanks for being
there…
Thanks, Ed. I appreciate the support. It seems things are going to
continue to evolve on this forum, and I'm planning on sticking around
to see what happens, and put my $.02 in, too <g>.
Well, to start off, I do find it annoying to mark a header looking
for particular info, and finding only 25% of it relates to the
subject. When *all* the replys seem to finally be off the subject, I
just don't mark the header anymore; admittedly, this might turn out
to be my loss. That said, I *still* don't think it's particularly
appropriate for someone to arbitrarily change the header or move the
messages. Like you said, it can fragment the train of though too
much. Personally, I'd like to see new headers voluntarily started when
the thread content strays too much, but do not like to see the issue
*forced* upon us.
This forum has the character it has precisely because there is lively
dialogue between informed participants. The conversation goes where
it may, follow me? The only problem is that the thread titles get
left in the past. I think it is the collective personal experiences
that give us a sense of community here. If somebody's dog dies that
becomes part of the community.
>> I think it is the collective personal experiences that give us a
sense of community here.
I agree; I was just trying to temper the discussion by mentioning that
some of us who visit the forums several times a day can also get
frustrated by the wanderings, especially those of us who might not be
very politically reactionary. (grammar?)
I *don't* think TM's should just jump in with a hatchet without
looking at a whole thread in context. And I usually just download the
whole threads anyway; it must take all of about 5 or 10 extra
seconds.<g> 'Talk to ya later,
>>trying to temper the discussion
Try a fire hose…<g> Sometimes a fire has to be left to burn itself
out. Maybe "thread" is an inappropriate term. Perhaps "fuse" would
be more descriptive. <G>
>>Maybe "thread" is an inappropriate term. Perhaps "fuse" would be more
descriptive<<
ROFL!
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
I'm in agreement with your wish to start new threads when a new thread
is warranted. I think this is what Jonas has been asking us to do,
also.
OK Paul,
I'll go over this again because it seems to be a really important
point to you. We do move message threads and we do prune them.
Always have and it will continue. Just like a tree needs to be pruned
once in awhile so that it can live and breath, a forum message base
does too. Most trees are somewhat self pruining, but a message base
isn't. So it needs a little help now and then.
But just like a tree, a forum message base has roots, stems and
branches. So when one of the branches wanders off subject it is
pruned out by changing the subject or the location or both. This in
no way affects the main stem of the message thread. Only the specific
message and it's replies are affected.
We do not (nor will we) alter an ongoing thread unless we change the
whole thing. We will not censor a message unless it is downright
inappropriate for the forum, and even censorship is only to move the
specific message to a closed section. The only messages that are
deleted from the forum are duplicates (ask John T about that) or some
of the dangling "thank you's" when the message base is scrubbed.
(betcha didn't know about that one either……..Boy!! Is that one
gonna' open a can of worms…….<grin>)
We will continue to use a light hand on this forum, but because we do
have a diverse membership, don't be surprised or angry when an off
topic thread branch winds up in another section on under a different
subject.
Joe,
I have absolutely no qualms with anything you've said. What I do have
qualms with is when someone decides that since they have two letters
attached to their name that they are going to dictate the way I and
others post messages.
When I responded to Dave the first time, I said that if he expected
the regular forum members to start thousands of threads and
continuously change the headers solely to accomodate the needs of a
few people who neither care about nor contribute to this forum then
it "wasn't going to happen." Quite obviously that was not a
challenging response, it was simply a fact of human nature. People
become extremely accustomed to posting responses a certain way, and it
would be virtually impossible, not to mention nerve racking to spend
alot of time and energy trying to rename every response that may not
directly relate to the thread header. I also said that it seems that
editing threads after the fact would appear to be the TM's job not
mine.
After I said that changing the way we currently operate on this forum
"wasn't going to happen", Dave came back and felt it necessary to let
me know that he had a TM attached to his name and because of that
fact everyone "WOULD" change the way they posted messages to threads.
This not only infuriated me, John Ellis, John Tissavary, and a couple
of others were extremely taken back by Dave's response and attitude.
I'm sure you've seen the numerous flamed responses.
From that point, I felt compelled for the first time in the years I've
been on this forum to explain the fact that although Dave had a TM
attached to his name, that there were a number of people on this
forum including myself, who had "extremely Large" ties to not only
the forum, but virtually every facet of Autodesk multimedia. If there
wasn't a way to resolve the issue, then it probably would not be in
the best interest of the forum or Autodesk as a whole to put the
complaints of an occasional visitor above that of forum regulars who
not only contribute "large" amounts of money to the forum and
Autodesk multimedia, but also have repeatedly demonstrated how
dedicated they were to this form of technical support. I personally
feel that everyone can be accomodated and if the situation had been
handled better, I don't think any of this would have turned into such
a flame war.
All of that being said, I have never had a problem with Sysop control
of this forum, and I do notice the light handed approach to
reorienting threads. Quite obviously it has never caused any problem
in the past. The only real thing that I did have a problem with was
the way I was "instructed" by Dave that things would change or he
would exalt his power to change them.
I have had six people from this forum call me in the last twelve hours
stating how upset they were at the way Dave burst into the forum, and
started explaining the way things "would" change. Although he
directed the message at me, he obviously upset alot of forum
regulars.
Paul, while I go along with the concept of "housekeeping" on the forum I agree
with you that the pretentious explanation of TM and the purpose did give me a
sour taste too. I don't feel that the concept is bad but the way Dave
responded to you wasn't very diplomatic. On the otherhand I felt your reaction
was a little explosive. I did not get the impression from Dave that I should
feel I was in danger with the thought police if I happened to mention scuba
diving in a message titled Targa+ output. However if the message strayed for
any length of time on the discussion of scuba diving then I personally would
welcome it be moved from one section to another more appropriate one. I do
recall this being done in the past and the "sysop" who did it had the courtesy
to inform everyone and why. I don't call this censorship at all because I
still have the right to read it and the right to write it. I don't believe the
TM in question ever intended to censor you or anyone else. Frankly, I've had
my fingers smacked in the past from dealers wishing I wouldn't mention the
merits of competitive products on this forum. And I'm talking products like
HSC Morph and Adobe Photoshop. The reason? there is a forum for these
products and I should take my discussions there. Well, that's true but I
didn't even think that was censorship because it came from another forum member
and not the Sysop. Just an their opinion. I have never been truely censored by
the sysop. If it ever does happen I'll do like you and say "K-M-A" and take my
monthly CIS payment elsewhere.
>> Frankly, I've had my fingers smacked in the past from dealers wishing I
wouldn't mention the merits of competitive products on this forum. And I'm
talking products like HSC Morph and Adobe Photoshop. The reason? there is a
forum for these products and I should take my discussions there. Well, that's
true but […]
Well I, for one, WANT to see such product discussions here, in terms
of their usefulness with 3DS and related applications. It wouldn't
be helpful at all to me to see them evaluated by people who used them
for other purposes–and who may well judge them just in terms of
specs and horsepower.
If there are hundreds of people who didn't complain and/or never noticed the
wandering threads, and one or two people complain, is that any reason to get
upset about it? No. I don't expect the TMs to "name names" of complainers,
but at least we should have some grasp of the *numbers* of complaints so we can
keep this in perspective. I'd hate to see Beavis & Butthead off the air
because one kid lights his trailer on fire.
Of course, an occasional message reminding people to switch sections and change
subject lines is general good advice. Unless, of course, people start
complaining about the frequency of *these* messages in every section. 🙂
Maybe all the "support" in this forum comes from non-sysops, and maybe it
seemed strange for a real sysop to jump in.
I didn't think what he said was out of line, but maybe just out of touch: this
forum is delightfully anarchic and addicting if you're into 3D Studio. Moving
threads rates about 0.25 out of 10 on my Censoring Scale. "Mostly harmless."
I think we should thank our stars that this isn't the Internet, or we'd have
12,000 messages a month from runny-nose college kids complaining that the
student discounts aren't deep enough.
To change the subject, isn't about time to consider a separate Autodesk
Software Vendor Forum for all the third-party product developers? That would
help moderate traffic.
John,
I agree. BTW, did you get my lenghty e-mail regarding translators? I've been on
the phone all morning trying to solve this translation problem and I'm going
nuts.
Paul
John,
<< seperate developer forum..? >>
There will be a public developer section here in ASOFT
this week. FWIW
jonas[adesk]