#It never ends . . .
26 messages in this thread
If you don't feel like reading generally uninformative info, skip this message.
I went to my downtown self-serve copy shop today to print up some mailers for
my company, Choreo Motion. The copy shop has several self-serve PCs and Macs
for people to use for laser printing, color printing, whatever. They have a
Mac-based DTP service that can output nice, photographic prints from a Kodak
printer.
I asked the DTP assistant about the price of the color prints and whether the
color printer was networked to the PC stations. Here is an approximation of
the conversation:
DTP: No, the Kodak printer is only networked to the Mac stations. There isn't
any software on the PCs that can produce that depth of color. [pointing at
the sample print of a picture of a barn near a pond.]
JEC: Oh, really? What special software on the Mac was used to create this
image?
DTP: It was created at 300 dpi at 16.7 million colors using Adobe Photoshop.
Of course, Photoshop is also available on the PC, but PCs just don't cut it.
JEC: That's very interesting. By the way, here is what I do . . . [handing
him a sample of the flyer which describes Choreo Motion and bulleted text of
its services, including animation and photorealistic rendering services.]
DTP: Oh? You do all this stuff on a PC? You should really consider buying a
Quadra or a Power Mac. The software is so much better. You should be using
Infini-D and Pixar's Typestry.
JEC: My software works fine. I can create images in a 48 bit color space,
which are then analytically anti-aliased down to 24 bits for the best possible
image. I'm not aware of this degree of functionality in the programs you
mentioned.
DTP: Well, the floating-point power of the new PowerMacs really blows anything
else away — even those SGI systems. I have friends who have said that their
renderings were reduced from seven hours down to just fifteen minutes!
JEC: My PCs render fast enough for my needs. If I really need render power, I
can always send my files to a service bureau with 100 networked PCs to get my
rendering done over night. Besides, I plan to stick with whatever platform my
software uses.
DTP: Well, when you buy another computer, I beg you to buy a PowerMac. Of
course, you'll have to run your software in emulation, so it will be a bit
slower, but it will run. Hey, why don't you bring by some samples of your work
some time?
JEC: Maybe I will . . . sometime.
I guess its a natural side-effect of working with PCs — heck, the guy never
even asked me _what_ software program I was using! I was hoping he would so
that I could say "just the software that has the largest market share in
animation".
— James E. Coulter — Choreo Motion —
I know what you mean, Ive had Macaddicts tell me the work I was showing them
couldnt be done on a pc. Dont get me wrong, some of my best friends own Macs.
Ed
Yeah, and they all think that Electric Image is a bargain at $7,995 without
modeling capability . . .
Bruce
And dont they think its cool that everything they use requires 80Meg of
RAM. <BG> Its so powerful it has to have it.
Bob..
> And dont they think its cool that everything they use requires 80Meg
of RAM. <
In other words, their stuff probably costs more. I think that is
great for them if they choose to afford it. I just wish they would
drop the front that PCs can't do imagery. Presently, almost any
computer can do imagery.
— James — Choreo Motion —
>> I just wish they would drop the front that PCs can't do imagery.
Presently, >> almost any computer can do imagery.
You said it.. Amiga Mac PC Sun SGI etc all have very powerful
capabilites. Some may take longer to render. But that is just guided
by cost and shear horse power.. The PC Pentium 150 when it arrives
will be very fast but will it out perform and SGI designed for only
one job and at 3 time the cost.. Probably not but it will be a cool
foot race to see.. Bob from The Design Shop..
Did they have an Apple logo tattoo on their scalp?
The MacAddicts were quite quiet until the Power Mac came out, now they're
getting noisy again (as they each save up the bucks to buy into it, maybe).
If the platform is so good, why does so much Mac advertising concentrate on
"theoretically" how BAD the competition is? i.e. their recent t.v. ads at
Christmas. And why does so much of it manage to not include the prices of the
systems? Gee, kind of expensive? Not too many third party options? Expensive
software? Their own operating system glitches?
Oh well, the price of democracy.
Dear Gary,
Having a couple of PowerMacs and 3DS in a DEC XL machine, I can tell you that
the headache that having to read all the mail those silly mac fans generate
going against the PC on the MAUG forums, is only comparable in intensity to
what those silly PC fans generate in PC-related forums like this.
This is strange. Is this a male related sickness? Maybe this comes from your
"My car is better and faster" discussion of your childhood.
Really, there are things to do better than discussing how good you computer is.
No that you are not free to do it (as you say: the price of democracy), it is
only that I don't think is a very interesting point. Indeed, I think that what
is discussed each time in these Mac-PC-Amiga heads discussion is so subjective
that reach the same level of discussions related to abortion or religion.
I can tell you only one thing:_FOR ME_, nothing do 3D as good as 3DS. And also
_FOR ME_, nothing do pre-press as good as a PowerMac. FOR ME equals personal
opinion! I have meet people that think SGI is the only thing worthy in this
world. Good for them. Let them write in CGW <g> Why you care about what other
people say about what computer do or doesn't? It really makes no sense at all!
You know what YOU CAN do with your computer, whatever this is, so why do you
have to care about the nonsense that people spreads in all areas of life.
After this year working with PowerMacs, I can only have found out one universal
truth: 99% of the things we PC people say about the MacOS and 99% of the things
the Mac people say about PCs are 99% false.
In the meantime, I keep working and squeezing the computers I work with.
Have a good time and keep spending those bytes (like I have done with this
message)
ana /krazy images
Very well said, Ana
Don ( another multiplatform user, I don't worship my computers, It's not the
computers I hate- Its their sometimes fanatical, religous, stupid owners)
Landis
Glad to count you in the "Whatever you say, Frank" club. This platform wars are
nonsense. I think everything can be reduced to a problem of lack of
self-confidence: Most of the people who say this kind of things have not
confidence in their own beliefs and/or purchases. You can find this attitude in
any book of consumer behaviour or any cheap manual of psychology.
We have to do like in Formula Renault, get exactly the same car to everybody
and see what they can do with it 🙂
ana /krazy images
I thought I might hear from you when I started this thread. 🙂
> Why you care about what other people say about what computer do or doesn't? <
Because I intend to be respected for the quality of imagery I create, not the
platform I use to get there. Yet, despite my asperations, I am continually
shown disrespect specifically for my choice of platforms, and without regard to
the quality of my work.
This forces me into an esoteric sort of secrecy regarding my primary platform.
When asked, I sometimes need to reply with childish statements like, "What
platform do I use? I use whatever platform is best for the job, in my
opinion." . . . which in most cases is the PC, since that is where my
investments in hardware, software, and knowledge are located.
— James — Choreo Motion —
>> Because I intend to be respected for the quality of imagery I create, not
the platform I use to get there. <<
I've been following this thread, and seen many like them for months. I
finally had my first big run-in today with a platform-centric client. Their
mind was set on so many things… for example, they were completely amazed that
I would make use of an 8-bit program like Animator Pro. I was not prepared for
their apparent lack of reason on certain issues. I'm learning a whole new
meaning to the words diplomacy and tact. 😉
Paul S.
> I'm learning a whole new meaning to the words diplomacy and tact. <
We have our software developers amazing us on one end, and our clients amazing
us on the other, though certainly not in the same ways!
— James — Choreo Motion —
It really amazes me that you have to hide your addiction to the 3D leading
software in the animation industry. Is this some childhood problems you got
there (maybe you didn't want to tell your friends that your parents have a
Volkswagen instead of a Ferrari? <bg>)
Seriously James, I think you have to forget about all that PC apartheid from
Mac and SGI people. It doesn't make sense. Don't even discuss about it. Just
let it go and left them with their ignorance. If you follow the same methods
they use, you are commiting exactly the same errors. I am sure that you don't
have a clue about what a Mac can do and what can't do. You said it: "PCs,
where my knowledge is located." Me neither. Until I bought a Powermac and then
another one. I was used to think that they couldn't do 3D and I was completely
wrong. They do it and they do it REALLY well. But at what price? That's the key
point. Actually you can whatever you want with any platform out there, from
prepress to video to animation to whatever. The questions are: how much? how
fast? how easy?
And BTW, I have Electric Image users, not kids playing with Macs in a Office
Depot, dying for the 3rd Party support, the features and the speed that 3DS
provides. In the other side, I also recognize how good EI is, and we are all
happy.
What a nice story!
ana /krazy images
> I think you have to forget about all that PC apartheid from Mac and SGI
people. It doesn't make sense. <
You're right that it doesn't make sence. Nor does it make _cents_ in my pocket
when a potential client snubs me for using a PC instead of whatever.
> Don't even discuss about it. Just let it go and left them with their
ignorance. <
So what do I say when a client asks me what platform I'm using? Why should I
have to avoid the topic? Because they might not hire me, that's why. And I
suppose that's why I started this thread — not to create another
my-cpu-is-better-than-your-cpu arguement, but rather to express my disdain at
the reaction I get for no logical reason.
> I am sure that you don't have a clue about what a Mac can do and what can't
do. You said it: "PCs, where my knowledge is located." <
That's an assumptive statement at best. True, my knowledge is invested in PCs,
but knowledge is relative. I understand the electronic principles behind what
makes any computer work, and from that I know that the potential of a system is
a function of the hardware and the software. The rest is money.
— James — Choreo Motion —
Dear Mac and SGI snobs,
I run Electric Image on my Mac, and I also run Alias, Prisms and now I
am studying Wavefront on SGI. 3D Studio is without a doubt much more powerful
per dollar invested than any of these "wonderous" programs. Electric image is
very limited to animation and lighting having no modeler. Sure it runs fast on
a Mac, and lots of people praise it for rendering speed, but it has very few
effects available compared to 3DS, or any of its higher end competition. In
Hollywood most people are of the opinion that Electric Image is a borderline
professional product, and I don't find it being used in very many bog CGI
houses. Alias, too has its problems. It crashes a lot. Its motion capture
software is poorly written and its nurbs modeler, while great, is a pain to
work with, and goes much slower thanb than 3D Studio does on a complex model.
In fact, Alias is the slowest renderer I have used. It requires an Onyx to
perform well, and is very slow on a Reality Engine. Softimage is better in
almost every way, and Wavefront handles imported files much better, and crashes
less. SGI's crash all the time. All the high end software packages have lots of
bugs and many of the big companies still use Renderman because Alias and all
the others can't do as good a job of rendering.
After running a lot of thise "high end" machines, I feel sorry for
somebody who has never enjoyed the pleasure of 3DS.
Sanford
>>Alias, slowest renderer…
That was a surprise to me. After hearing so much about SGI, we finally got a
little one in at work (IndigoII-Ext.) and bought Alias. When I asked the guy
from Alias to demo the rendering I couldn't believe how slow it was. And the
modeler – perhaps if I spent more time with it I'd be a lot faster, but for now
I can run circles around it doing backflips with 3DS.
JKJ
John,
Alias…Alias for "I got your money, now try to make a living with it."
Some people who own 160Mhz IndigoX2's with lots of ram can get fair
performance out of Alias, but most companies still put their CGI artists on the
old rental indigos with the p4000 processor…some only run at 33Mhz, and they
expect you to get someting done. Only the latest SGI hardware can render an
Alias full-on raytrace image quickly. The worst part of the program is the
super-slow redraw speed when you have a complex scene in the modeler. It
redraws every time you do something and wastes a major amount of time. You can
hide and ghost things, but Alias is keeping track of so many Nodes, Control
Vertices, Hulls, etc. etc that the overhead is tremendous.
I used Alias 6 for a while, and is is crash-happy. Some people swear by
it, but then some people like brussel sprouts and ketchup.
Sanford
Thank you, Sanford, for reassuring me in my choice of platforms. I have said
it before that I do not engage in CPU wars. Still your points are well taken,
especially when considering your background.
I recently spoke with a professor at Western Michigan University, here in
Kalamazoo MI, about teaching animation for them. WMU is behind the times,
considering that animation is everywhere you look and they still are not
teaching it.
I thought it would be a good way to broaden my credentials, so I gave him a
call. He said they were planning to start up a program in animation using
Alias Power Animator starting in 1996. I suggested that their money might be
better spent on PC and Mac based systems. He feels, however, that since Alias
and SGI are what the "big boys" are using that that is what they want to use.
Besides, apparently Alias is giving their software to the university for
_free_, and they are getting a couple of SGIs at educational prices, of course.
Needless to say, I would be useless at teaching Alias when the only experience
I've had with it is at the tryout stations at Siggraph. Yet, in the course of
our 40 minute phone conversation, I probably tought him more about DDRs and
video than he ever knew. I should send him a bill for the consulting.
Think about it, they're planning on using Alias Power Animator, SGIs, and — a
Panasonic SVHS deck. — A silver spoon and a paper plate!
Anyway, would you mind if I sent him a copy of that message? Coming from you
it might sink in a little, though I doubt it.
— James — Choreo Motion —
James,
Looks like the Alias sales staff exceeds the Alias software writers in
ability at this time. Now that Alias, Wavefront and SGI are all going to be
one big company, they are going to run up against the reality of the distance
between their hype and their performance.
I pitty that University….the learning curve for Alias is very steep,
and they will all think that they are getting the "best software in the world."
Ah, the power of advertising…
Sanford
Was that a 'yes'? [Re sending that prof your testimonial]
They plan on making the Alias class a six credit hour course. Modelling in one
semester, animation in a second semester. I almost laughed out loud over the
phone. They would need an entire four year course to teach modeling and
animation on any complex system.
— James — Choreo Motion —
Hi James,
Your comments about a local university sure sound familiar to me as well….
At a recent technology show, our local university was showing off
their newly aquired SGIs loaded with Alias PowerAnimator (the Alias
gurus helping, of course). And at the far end of the exhibit hall,
was my company showing off 3D Studio on a PC for 1/6 of the cost of
one of the SGI systems…..funny thing was, when we all got together
over a cup of coffee, there wasn't much they could do that we
couldn't….
Sure, they had some neat features that 3DS doesn't have, but of course
we had a number of features they didn't have….It never ends….<G>
Now that 3DS is going to NT, the Alias Research. . . or whoever that
new company is . . . will have some new worries. The gap is
narrowing, but the price is working in our favor.
On the other hand, I've never seen a PC advertisement that praises CONFIG.SYS,
640K of base memory, interrupt conflicts, or the need for a "memory manager"
for a machine with 32 megs of RAM and a supposedly 32-bit processor. 🙂 I
have a PC because its hardware and software are ubiquitous, not because it is
technically great. I had an Amiga for that purpose. 🙂
No, but there may have been an Apple daisy connection in the back of his head .
. . 🙂
— James — Choreo Motion —