Pacific Rim Amiga Forum
29 messages in this thread
Hi Rob,
As official rep. for Activision, I would be happy to attend your event and
possibly show off some shtuff to your users.
-rad
>Commodore has every reason to hand over the reigns of US marketing to
>NewTek. NewTek sells machines. NewTek knows how to market the product,
>and does it well.
I don't think anyone will argue tha Commodore stinks in the marketing
department, but one thing really amazes me is that most if not all
toaster owners firmly believe the the future of Cpmmodore is in
NewTeks hands. While the toaster is a fine, revolutionary product, I
can't see where it accounts for more than 6-7% of US sales and far
less than that internationally. Topeka could blow up tommorow and it
would not significantly affect amiga sales. There is Amiga life
without the toaster.
Are you privy to any sales figures? How many Amigas (of each model) does CBM
sell in the USA alone? I do think the Toaster is keeping the Amiga market
alive. If Topeka blew up tomorrow, chances are, most of NewTek's staff would
be on the road, and they'd be saved from "The Day After." 🙂 The Toaster is
a flagship product for the semi/pro video market for the Amiga. If it
disappeared, how many users and how many developers would be forced to jump
ship to other markets? How long would the low-end Amiga market exist if CBM
suddenly lost half of its dealership base?
NewTek is a non-factor in worldwide Amiga sales. If NewTek goes away
tomorrow Amiga will survive (US sales may die, but Amiga will
survive). If CBM goes away tomorrow, so does NewTek. The dog (CBM)
is wagging the tail (NewTek), not the other way around.
1: Is that opinion or fact? :, he asked with a smile. I know exactly
2: how many Toasters have been sold, and because Syndesis gets a royalty
3: for the TIO import / export system we developed for them.
4: Of course, I can't disclose this number. So if someone
5: has real sales figures, we can at least discuss that number.
6:
7: I realize the Toaster -heads may be a very smamll part of
8: total sales. In Europnon-NTSC countries, they may be zero part
9: of total sales. But wouldn't you agree twith my central premise,
10: that it';s ths the desktop video developers in general, and the
11:
12: Toaster developers in specific, that whoops in general that are providing a lot of the "oomph"
13: in this market?
14:
15: We migh t want to hear from some Amiga dealers, too.
16: Which categories of software account for most of your account for most of your
17: software sales, and which software categories are
18: drviiiving hardware sales?
19: /post
Message # 30167 posted
Is that opinion or fact, he asked with a smile. I know exactly how many
Toasters have been sold because Syndesis gets a royalty for the TIO import /
export system we developed for them. Of course, I can't disclose this number.
So if someone has real sales figures, we can at least discuss that number.
I realize the Toaster-heads may be a very small part of total sales. In
non-NTSC countries, they may be zero part of total sales. But wouldn't you
agree with my central premise, that it's the desktop video developers in
general, and the
whoops in general that are providing a lot of the "oomph" in this market?
We might want to hear from some Amiga dealers, too. Which categories of
software account for most of your software sales, and which software categories
are driving hardware sales?
Check and see if Newtek is honest with you. 68,220 Toasters were sold and
delivered to distributors as of March 30, 199?, whatever that means.
I'll try and find out the who got where stuff.
I heard "three" sales figures, how does this work? Either it's sold or
not.
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
If the Toaster has been selling for three years, that 68K figure is an average
of almost 1900 a month. Where did you hear this?
I overheard a fellow with a close shaven beard talking to a Commodore
person. He said "WE sold" but I didn't get it all in context. This was at
Pasadena, it was mixed in with a DCTV discussion during the Toaster show
after hours at the hotel.
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
Paul:
There are at least two sales figures, "sold to distributors", and
"actual sales". Actual sales are "sold to distributors minus returns".
Distributors usually can return unsold merchandise for credit or refund.
Clint <Chaocity>
It is interesting to note that the Amiga is really selling better in
Europe than in the US, and that the Toaster is not available for PAL
systems used in Europe.
—Betty
Betty,
Are you implying that the Toaster is actually a detriment to US Amiga sales?
<grin>
Actually, that may not be too far fetched since as of 3 months ago (or so)
NewTek was going around to various Amiga dealers telling them they should drop
the Amiga (as a computer) and become NewTek workstation dealers.
John,
I am not privy to any sales figures other than my own common sense <g>.
I know most of the amiga owners in my area. I am active on the nets and
bbs's, of everyone I have been in contact with I would say one in 20-30
amiga owners own a Toaster, I know I will get plenty of raggin of this
scientific survey! And Europe where most of the amigas are at can't even
use a toaster. I do acknowledge that the toaster is a high profile
perpheral and gets a lot of good press (for the amiga too), hell I would
love to have one! But it is not the do all/be all of amigas. I guess
what really gets my goat is that in talking to most non amiga computer
owners, when I state I have an amiga all most with out exception the
response is Oh you have a toaster setup! if the even recognize what an
amiga is. The attitude of most toaster owners (not all but most) are `If
it were'nt for the toaster the amiga would had died long ago. Well I'm
sorry I don't believe that, The amiga is a very fine advanced computer in
its own right and does not need to ride on the coat tails of New Tek.
It does seem that the amiga is going to be tied to the video market for
software though, I see the trend coming. While I guess this is good I
would like to see a broadening of the entire software base.
>>>The Amiga does not live by Toast alone.<<< (you can quote me on
that if ya want to) <g>
<slipping off the soapbox>
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
I was a bit overzealous in my statement, but only to a degree. As I said
before, I have been with the Amiga since long before there was even talk of a
VideoToaster, so I know that the machine stands on it's own. I simply meant
that NewTek has (despite their attempts to do otherwise) made the Amiga a
thousand times more visible than Commodore has simply due to all of the press
coverage. David Hopkins
Steve,
I think that if you look at sales in terms of revenue, instead of units
shipped, you might want to revise those figures. A500's don't put bread
on the table, loaded 2000's do (and now, 4000's).
//Jonathan,
\\//via AutoPilot
Jonathan,
If you were a dealer would you rather sell 25 Amiga 1200 a month or 3
4000's?
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
Steve,
First: Do you know that your sales ratio (of about 8:1) is correct?
Besides, if you do the math, you'll find that there is nearly as much
profit in three 4000's as there are in 25 A1200's…with a lot less
support headaches, I'll wager.
//Jonathan,
\\//via AutoPilot
Jonathan,
I haven't the foggiest as to wht the actual ratio is of 1200 to 4000
sales are <g> But if anything I think I was conservative. Maybe some of
the dealers here will speak up and let give us a little info. The point
is C= and the dealers make their money on volume of 1200/500 sales.
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
Steve,
Just for kicks, I read your message and called my dealer. He's got 2 stores
and is 95% Amiga. He sells a LOT of Amigas (he's been in business for 10+
years now with the last 5 being almost exclusively Amiga). At any rate, he
said that for him, the 1200 rush is over and is currently selling the 4000
about 3 to 1 over the 1200.
Well if NewTek did take over the US marketing of the Amiga, and I
doubt it would happen, I would only approve of it IF they actually
marketed it as a computer. Not a video machine, video workstation,
DTV platform, or whatever. Sure, they can mention it as being an
advantage of using the Amiga to have these capabilities, but I want
to see it marketed as a technically advanced home computer with great
graphics, sound, and multimedia capability. If they want to market it
as a Toaster workstation or DTV platform, then the marketing should
be entirely seperate, one direction for the Amiga, and the other for
the 'Toaster'. And what about the OS and hardware development? Surely
CBM wouldn't be too worried about it when their marketing would shift
to the European's and the game crowd. And NewTek hasn't exactly been
great with developer support. So I see a lot of problems if something
like this did happen and could be the final stake through the Amiga's
heart. I would much rather see CBM doing a decent job of marketing
the Amiga instead of keeping it a secret from the computing world,
but maybe it's too late for that also.
John, I want to say thank you to you for seeing my post exactly as I meant
it…just a thought. I'm not in any way sure there IS a connection in the
information I provided, but I thought it might make interesting discussion
rather than a battle. Points well made, my friend. David Hopkins
RE: Droping the prices on the 2000.
It seems not to occur to many people, but producing machines using
old technology is often actually more expensive than producing
machines which take advantage of state-of-the-art production
technology, even when the new machines include more expensive
componenets…
That's true, but doesn't it seem that re-engineering the old machine by using
the cheaper, newer technology would pay off? Look at Apple and the Mac
Classic. They reduced the number of chips and cards in the Classic over those
in it's original incarnation, leaving the user with effectively the same
machine, cheaper, while also expanding their higher end systems.
I always have been, and still am, convinced that the Amiga 2000 is (was) the
Volkswagen of the Amiga family. You bought a cheap base model and you could
add ANYTHING you wanted to modify it for your needs. I'm sorry to see such a
truly versatile machine go. David Hopkins
David,
>I always have been, and still am, convinced that the Amiga 2000 is (was)
>the Volkswagen of the Amiga family. You bought a cheap base model and
>you could add ANYTHING you wanted to modify it for your needs. I'm sorry
>to see such a truly versatile machine go.
Now I do agree with tha 110%. If C= would keep the 2000 around and drop
the price to >$500.00 they would sell a bazillion of them!
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
The reason NewTek told their dealer that they did not have a new
Toaster was they did not want to participate in the Osborne
Syndrome. NewTek must continue to move product, announcing such a
product to their dealers would all but kill A2000+Toaster sales.
Distributors would be outraged, and Toaster dealers would be as well
since the Toaster 4000 is not available yet.
I really hope you don't think NewTek built the Toaster 4000 in three
months. That is completely unrealistic.
NewTek marketing? You know I hear this all of the time, could you
kindly point me out some NewTek marketing? The Toaster is often
times, self-selling, it solves a unique problem at a very low cost.
Customers seek it out, not the other way around.
There are plenty of reasons to kill off the A2000 and the A500. They
are old, and besides Toaster sales, the systems were not selling at
all. Remember once again, that Commodore makes its money overseas
where there is no Toaster product.
David, I am a direct Commodore dealer. I work with them on a daily
basis, they are not handing marketing over to Newtek. I really pray
that never happens personally, I can't think of anything worse that
could happen.
Interesting points. And no, I don't really believe that NewTek developed the
4000 Toaster in three months, that was said sarcasticly.
Your argument still has a hole, however, regarding NewTek not telling dealers
there would be a 4000 Toaster. These people are their dealers, supposedly part
of a sales "team". Why didn't NewTek tell their own "teammates" that it was
happening so that a plan for transition could be developed? In a strict
marketing sense, it just doesn't make sense to me. David Hopkins
David,
I *am* a NewTek "authorized dealer".
The answer is really simple. Toaster 4000 was not done, not ready to be
shown, and they did not want the remaining inventory of Toaster 2.0
systems to sit in distributors warehouses.
NewTek caught a lot of grief with the original toaster missing ship dates.
This way, they announced it when it was ready.
Makes perfect marketing sense to me.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..