#A2000 Upgrade ??
26 messages in this thread
I have an aging A2000 (circa 1988) that I am considering upgrading into the
real world. I would like to get any advice people are willing to give
regarding 68040 33MHz, hard disk and RAM expansion. What might be some good
hardware combinations that could provide the most "bang for the buck?"
Thanks in advance!
Jeff
If your budget allows, consider getting a 4000 instead of upgrading your 2000.
The 4000's '040 only runs at 25 MHz rather than the 33 you want, but the wider
system bus means that your apps will probably run at about the same speed as on
a 2000 accelerator at 33 MHz. New 4000s only cost about $2700.
The A4000 is a piece of garbage………
Elite MicroComputers – via Whap!
But how do you REALLY feel about it, Dave?
I mean what I said …the A4000, from an engineers, and an expansion point of
view is a piece of crap.
Elite MicroComputers – via Whap!
"The a4000, from and engineers, and an expansion point of view… is
crap"
Where did you get that engineer's opinion? Who was it?
From *this* engineers point of view, the 4000 is a nice box, both ways.
Perfect no, but nice. I'd *very* much like to hear why an engineer,
someone who is technically literate if nothing else, would decry the
machine as "crap". I can't see it, myself.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
First….I design components for computers, therefore I am an Engineer.
I NEVER stated I was an EE
"…the A4000 is a nice box…"
As compared to an A3000??
No it is crap…just look at the display "enhancer", unless you get a C=
monitor you only fill about 70% of the screen.
I may as well have a 16" monitor instead of my 20"….thats only how much
I can view.
Expansion wise it fails to….no SCSI ….so you really only have 3
expasion slots…and the 5 1/4" bay won't fit a CD-ROM…besides a syquest
what else would you consider putting in the 5 1/4" bay?
Dave
Aren't you the same 'engineer' that recommended to customers that they
desolder their BNC connector on the toaster so that it would fit in the
excellently designed A3000 and then re-solder the BNC so NewTek would
warranty the device? You *were* that engineer right?
The IDE discussion is age old and one that I have made my feelings clear
on. I do think it was a mistake to make IDE a standard on the A4000, but
on the positive side it does allow the A4000 to be sold at $2693. As an
engineer you can appreciate the fact that people do not always want to pay
for options they don't need or want. In those cases, the IDE decision is
not that bad. It was a wrong move, but certainly it is not the move that
makes the machine junk.
I am confused by your statement about the display enhancer. What display
enhancer? Are you talking about the AGA chipset or the mode promotion
capability of the AGA custom chip set? Frankly I find mode promotion to
be quite acceptable 99.5% of the time and the fact that I don't have a
system now that goes nuts when I feed it a genlocked signal makes me quite
happy, or haven't you ever connected a genlock to the A3000 while having a
1950 monitor connected to the VGA port? If you haven't experienced the
pleasure of a screen that can't be seen I encourage you to 'check it out'
with your keen eye for engineering. I suspect you'll find it quite
disquieting. Mode Promotion, though it has its trade offs, once again
allows people to purchase a system at $599 (the A1200) and the the $2693
A4000 without paying for an expensive hardware based de-interlacer. For
the first time in Amiga history people can buy a $599 computer that can
produce a high-quality de-interlace picture.
You do recall that the hardware based de-interlacer in the engineering
mircale A3000 did not work in all resolution modes and when Commodore was
asked why? The answer was cost.
I strongly suspect you will see hardware based de-interlacers coming from
third parties as well as Commodore itself. Once again customers do not
have to pay for features that they do not need.
There are CD-ROMs that do fit, in fact one of our forum members posted
that Commodore told him which CD-ROM would fit, I will try to find that
posting. I grant that the majority of the CD-ROM expansion drives will
not fit, but with things constantly downsizing in physical space
requirements I see this as a minor point. Frankly I would not buy a 3rd
party CD-ROM drive for my A4000. They only way CD-ROM will be an
effective component of the Amiga is when Commodore releases a CDTV
compatible unit. I suspect if and when they decide to release such a
unit, it will fit in the A4000, though I admit that is just a guess at
this time. 🙂
On the other hand, if I were to purchase a CD-ROM drive in a generic sense
I would purchase an external unit so that I might be able to move it from
machine to machine. A small drive bay does not make junk. I'll wager
that you can't put a CD-ROM drive in a A3000 either.
I find your position fascinating and impossible to comprehend. However,
that is not unsual.
-mark=
Drivin' on Otto Pilot
No I am not….
I think it would have cost C= about $15 more to put a SCSI controller on
the A4000
The promotions only work half decent when you are using them with a 1960
The screen is compressed with a "normal" monitor.
The A3000 works fine with my IV-24
You forgot to address the fact that they surface mounted almost every
chip on the mother board….this is not to cut cost's, it's called
"holding on to our precious technology" They want straight MB instead of
chip replacements. It is stupid, it is cheap….
The A4000 is crap
Dave
Mark, Mark, Mark . . .
You're just dying to have old Davey come out and bully you with threats of
libel & slander, aren't you?
I've learned to just filter out the 'sage' comments of that fine
'engineer'. (Of course, he also threatened to sue me for about 4 weeks
about something I said, but never got around to it.)
All your points were valid though . . .
Keep Up The Good Work,
Erik Flom
Erik Flem,
I'm sure I could still dig that letter up if I had to.
You shouldn't comment on technical skill..
I mean when I blow somthing up it's for the sake of R&D
You seem to do it just for the sake of your own stupidity
I see we have completely different definitions of "engineer" – Designing
components can be done by an electronics hobbyist, smart nine-year old,
technician or – yes, by an engineer. It's *very* clear that you an I have
different definitions of what makes an engineer and what doesn't so I'll
just let it slide… there's little point in going into it, methinks.
Monitor performance: If you drag the VGA icon from the storage/monitors
drawer into the devs/monitors drawer and then restart, you'll find a lot
more of your VGA type monitor is filled up with an image – there are
drawbacks to this (poor sprite performance) but it works very well for the
majority of users. I would not call this "crap", I would call it
flexible.
SCSI is a disk controller option. It's a very GOOD one for the Amiga. But
the machine does have a disk controller, and it works well for what it is.
If you require SCSI, then you get to use a slot, or wait for a different
model Amiga (which is certainly coming, according to the elves). As for
the 5.25 bay, I've not personally tried to fit anything at all in it, but
if I did I'd probably put a hard drive in there. :^) From what you're
saying, it sounds like CDROM drives don't fit normal drive bays, since
HD's DO fit in there. While I like lots of room like anyone else, I also
like the small footprint – somewhere there will ne3ed to be compromises. I
could have lived with another inch of depth just fine, tho.
Now, on the upside, what does the 4000 offer? Plenty, it turns out. So
much in fact that a 3000, or a 3000t/040 seem worth $0.00… in my
opinion. The graphics are superb, both speedwise and capability wise. The
chip deinterlacer is a boon expense wise – read "good deal" -, but would
be better replaced by real deinterlacing to buy bandwidth for my purposes.
The high density floppy stuff is nice. The replacable CPU board is nice
(and not unique to the 4000… but still nice). There are a LOT of drive
bays in there – did you notice that? You can put quite a few expansion
devices in the case. I like that a lot. The Zorro III bus is also cool,
*especially* for things like progressive's 64mb ram board.
There's even an upside to the forthcoming SCSI on a card – you'll be able
to whack multiple controllers in there, make a three-controller + one
network card server. I *really* like that. :^)
I plan to get a 4000t, if such a beast appears and has the rumored goodies
on it. I want more – it's an occupational hazard, I admit it. But I fail
to see why a 4000 is in any way an example of poor engineering – and feel
that your attempt to characterize it as such is both superficial and
inaccurate.
You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion – as whatever you want to
call yourself. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
That is what I am using, the VGA icon…and still have 2" borders on the
sides.
I would call it crap….if it worked OK, it would be flexible
If it worked great it would be genious.
The case it still a crap design…pick up a $50 mini PC tower…you can
fit more in there then in an A2000
I think you all misunderstand my using the word crap…it is not a bad
computer, it's not $h!^…..I save that word for descirbing PC's
It's just after 2+ years, pleas from dealers and user, and practical
exprience, C= could have done A LOT better….I think it is a crappy job
in general because, in alot of cases they had something good and then
dismissed it.
Dave
PS…call me what you want….at least you can't call me a tree hugger
tree hugger!!
Ah HA!!
I knew Special Ed. would be letting out soon……
Elite MicroComputers – Flying high on AutoPilot
DC: That is what I am using, the VGA icon…and still have 2" borders on
the sides.
It was my understanding that "blackborders" were due to limits of the
MONITOR display circuitry (or settings), and not the Amiga's output.
A guy on Internet was talking about an IDEK MF-5017 that he purchased.
He didn't like the borders and opened the monitor up. There were four
sets of POTS(?) that were for adjusting the scan area. (One set of POTS
for each of the four sync areas, which allowed the overscan to be set
differently for each area.
Ron.
– ap'ing with AP. (Eagles may fly, but weasles aren't sucked
into jet engines.)
With VGA output from an IBM I can go past the edges of my screen with my
external controls.
My A3000 leaves 1" around…..I can set the V size to fit flush, I can go
into the monitor and set the H Size to also fit…..but the picture is
VERY grainy….with an A4000/A1200 I don't think I could even make the
whole picture fit.
It's not just the size thats a problem but the picture….compair it to an
A3000….the A12/4000 display is not very clear, and not very bright.
Dave the Engineer
Elite MicroComputers – Flying high on AutoPilot
Dave, I wouldn't call you a tree hugger. No, not at all.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Well having owned both computers (3000 & now 4000) and using the same
NEC-3D monitor, the black border's are a lot more prevalent with the 4000
than with the 3000. On the 3000 the border's were only 1/4" at the most,
but with the 4000 they are about 1" in size. I admit it does get annoying
but I've learned to live with it. And yes, SCSI should have been on the
motherboard and make IDE an option, no question about that. And they
should have done a little better job on finding out if various 5.25"
drives would fit properly. But crap? No, I don't think so. I still have a
FAST 040 computer that has great graphic's, the real nice OS 3.0 and does
everything I've wished the Amiga had in the last couple of year's. I'm
enjoying the AGA technology, and one of the problem's that we have
mentioned will be corrected with the SCSI-II card. So I have no regrets
for purchasing the 4000. I knew at the time I bought it that I was buying
new technology so there were bound to be problems with getting the first
model. I guess we have to live with that if we want to be the first to get
the new toys 8^)
//
\X/ John – K7KB (Flying via AutoPilot)
Dave,
A most excellent reply. You mind telling me why the A4000 is a piece of
garbage?
Considering your a dealer, makes me wonder how your A4000 sales are
doing.
-mark=
Love my A4000….
-mark=
Drivin' on Otto Pilot
Don't sell systems…so I can't tell you how it's selling in my area…
To be brief…I have seen the motherboard…it is cheap..from the non socketed
CIA chips (the MOST problematic IC) to the IDE controller.
Next is the case….not meeting up to standards…I don't mean the standards
in a book…what's the real world standard.
Like all these people having problems fitting CD-ROM drive into the case.
The A1200 seems to be a pretty solid machine…it could have used some more
(trapdoor) expansion room however.
Dave
Elite MicroComputers – via Whap!
Dave,
I am not an electronics expert, but with the exception of the IDE
interface on the A4000 I find it to be well constructed and highly
reliable. Our DOA figures show a very low percentage of A4000s and a
higher frequency of failure of the A1200. Most A4000 failures have been
to poor quality control on the actual construction of the unit and not on
an inherent design problem.
Excatly what part of the moterboard construction is "cheap" and why? Many
people advocate the use of surface mounted hardware for improved hardware
reliability and reduction of system cost. All it takes is one purchase of
an A3000 motherboard by an owner of a machine that is out of warranty to
make this fact clear.
Obvisouly my findings are not scientific, just as your thoughts are not
scientific as to what is "junk" and what is not.
My A4000 is not junk, and I do not sell junk in my store. I find your
comments offensive. You don't have to like the A4000, but the charge of
'junk' is extreme and unfounded.
-mark=
Drivin' on Otto Pilot
On one point related to surface mount Dave – or someone – has hit the nail
on the head; chips that connect to the outside world such as the CIA's,
wherever the mouse data goes these days, the keyboard inputs… those
chips have no business being surface mounted. That doesn't increase
reliability; it DEcreases servicability and does -0- for reliability. Poor
design is exactly what I'd call it. Typical, though – PC's are done the
same way, now.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Be still my heart, I Ben agrees with me….
The only thing you forgot is, a PC' MB is About $200, much more availible,
and MUCH simpler then an Amiga mb.
Dave the Engineer
Sort of reminds me of front-wheel drive in a car… The manufacturers have gone
to great lengths to convince the consumer that 'pulling' your car instead of
'pushing' it is the next best thing to sliced bread! In reality, of course,
it's mostly a marketing ploy. Much like surface mount technology, it's
easier/cheaper for the manufacturer but harder/ more expensive to work on if
something screws up. At least the computer manufacturers pass along the savings
to its customers…
— a disgruntled consumer —
An A3000
Elite MicroComputers – via Whap!