#FIGHT BACK!
45 messages in this thread
Jon:
>> 6,000,000 Amiga owners – 2 trustees – 10 months and no action. I'm fed up.
What about you?
As one of those "6,000,000 Amiga owners," I'm *very* fed up! Unfortunately,
however, I think our voice – even collectively – would have little to no impact
on the situation. The reason is simple. Commodore was a complex company that
had its interests scattered all over creation. Liquidating such a company is a
legal nightmare that could take quite a while to resolve. In addition, the
trustees in this case have no obligation to us as former Commodore customers.
While I don't believe the lawyers, trustees, etc. have really worked to achieve
a swift conclusion to this mess, that doesn't matter. They don't have to
answer to you or I. They only have to answer to the courts and the creditors.
Please don't get me wrong. I agree with the spirit of your message very much.
I just don't know what can be done to speed things up. The powers that be in
this case don't seem to have a clue about the perishability of the Amiga
market. They've had offers on the table. As time goes on, I can only see
those offers being lowered if not completely withdrawn. In other words,
everybody involved in this may lose. It makes me sick! 🙁
Wayne
Our voice had no effect when CBM was in business…what makes this
different?
Grant Boucher
1 of 2 Supervising Animators :} – Star Trek: Voyager – Amblin Imaging
Things to think about….
1) IDG does not only publish Amiga World but other Amiga magazines outside of
the USA and they are still in business. (ex Amiga Computing)
2) CEI said that the sale is proceeding and independent of the 3 vs 12 month
issue. So any restrainment order will not delay the auction.
3) Used Amiga 4000s are selling at an all time high. (Wasn't CEI who had to
fund an Amiga production run because product demand was so high and C= could
not come up with the cash?)
4) Are alternative solutions for the Amiga being worked on? What no one can
build a better mouse trap? There is just no way around those custom chips.
NewTek will just have to let the Toaster die and loose lots of money. Yeah —
right!
Demand for an Amiga or Amiga-like product is there, C= did not fail because no
one wanted their product.
Joe Maulucci >>> "MotionCLIPS CD-ROM – 20 Royality Free Image Sequences"
Call 716 873-1856 to order (The MicroWorks)
Used Amiga 4000's are selling at an all time high because there are people
who need to have them, and there are none in production.
True there is a demand, but is it enough to support a computer company and
developers? Developers were dropping the machine, and C= starved to death
trying to sell Amigas.
Were there sufficient demand in the first place, C= would still be in
business.
The only reason the Amiga had a chance was via developers and not C=.
Applications sell computers, no one cares what it is only what it can do.
The only reason why the Amiga is where it is today is simply C=, and their lack
of concern for developers and bad planing. Users sold Amigas not C=.
* The A3000 was a dead end machine, why release it.
* The A600 was a big mistake. Who would buy it when you could get a 1200 for
about the same money!
* Lets design the A3000 and A4000 making sure there is no room for third party
boards.
* Let's release the A4000 and not make sure it will run the Video Toaster —
the major product that would have assured the Amiga as the machine for Desktop
Video. Which BTW is the only reason why there is still demand for the Amiga
today.
Which developers were leaving, well I bet they were not making games. And that
is were C= head was at — games. How can you get respect for professional
applications when they are on a games machine. You can't. And there was no
need for it. C= had their game machine — all they had to do was keep the
Commodore line as the game machine and build the Amiga as the Multi Purpose,
Multi Platform machine.
I, like so many users, promoted the Amiga as just that — not as a game
machine. I reject any statement that C= was a great company that could not
find a user base. I doubt that when companies like WordPerfect, who dropped
the Amiga line before they released 5.0 which was completed, that C= did
anything to persuade WP — yet users here on CIS wrote E-Mail to voice their
concerns.
Joe Maulucci >>> "MotionCLIPS CD-ROM – 20 Royality Free Image Sequences"
Call 716 873-1856 to order (The MicroWorks)
Joe,
I believe the Amiga's best potential markets is multimedia, desktop video,
interactive television and embedded systems (i.e. ATMs). It requires less
capital to compete in this market and the rewards are greater. The game market
may have been the Amiga's most successful foray, but no longer. Indeed, with
the game platform manufacturers coming out with new systems, the highly
competitive games market and low profitability (except in volume), its not
worth it.
Noticed how many of the UK based Amiga game developers have either been
bought-out or merged into other software companies? Something to be said about
Amiga game development experience. It improves the quality of games on other
platforms! What a Catch-22. Sigh.
Regards,
John Chang
<<* The A3000 was a dead end machine, why release it.>>
Please justify that statement. I'm a '3000 owner, and it's my amiga dream
machine. I searched for months to fins a '3000 rather than buy a '4000 instead.
Neil.
Via Autopilot
Then I take it you don't miss the AA chip set.
Joe Maulucci >>> "MotionCLIPS CD-ROM – 20 Royality Free Image Sequences"
Call 716 873-1856 to order (The MicroWorks)
<<Then I take it you don't miss the AA chip set.>>
Not at all. But then again, I don't play too many arcade games.
Neil.
Via Autopilot
<<…I don't play too many arcade game.>>
Neither do I, as for DTV the Video Toaster does make use of the AA. So for me
that was the reason for buying a 4000. My 3000 is more of my DTP machine and
my 2500 is my BBS.
Joe Maulucci >>> "MotionCLIPS CD-ROM – 20 Royality Free Image Sequences"
Call 716 873-1856 to order (The MicroWorks)
Huh?
The A3000 was the best machine Commodore ever released. The A3000+ would have
been the best if it was ever released.
dale@iam.com http://www.iam.com
Intangible Assets Manufacturing
<<Huh?
The A3000 was the best machine Commodore ever released. The A3000+ would have
been the best if it was ever released.>>
Absolutely. Producing a '4000 with an EC030 was about the biggest mistake CBM
could make. Having no MMU means that the lowest end developer machine was a
'1200 + 3rd party processor card or a '4000/040. <sigh>
*Not* the best marketing decision, IMHO.
Neil.
Via Autopilot
Developers of all kinds departed the Amiga scene. As for game developers
Sierra on Line comes to mind, as one who opted out.
True, at one time, people believed if a computer played a good game, that
it was not a "real" computer. However, if you wander through the game
section of stores, you sure do see a lot of IBM games both on disk, and CD
Rom.
Indidentally, there aren't near the number of games for the Mac, that
there are for the IBM, but it doesn't seem to help it sell any better.
Alex,
>True there is a demand, but is it enough to support a computer company and
>developers?
Very possible, if they follow a business model similar to SGI. Will they reach
sales of $1 Billion? No. $20 Million? Could be.
Regards,
John Chang
Grant:
>> Our voice had no effect when CBM was in business…what makes this
different?
That's a great – and very unfortunate – point. 🙁
Wayne
Wayne,
Think about it. If you were a trustee and you got even 1000 letters a week
describing our dilema and encouraging you to move ahead post haste, you could
not help being affected.
Congressmen make important decision based on fewer responses. Anyway , what to
we have to lose? This thing has dragged on so long to be sickening. Post the
names and addreses on the boards and let's start writing letters today. Fight
back!
Jon Byk
Jon:
>> If you were a trustee and you got even 1000 letters a week describing our
dilema and encouraging you to move ahead post haste, you could not help being
affected.
Probably true. However, I don't really think the trustees care in this case.
Getting all those letters might be nothing more than an annoyance to them.
Besides, I don't completely blame this mess on the trustees. Sure, they could
be moving a bit quicker to get the Amiga back in production. However, it was
Mr. Gould and Company that really fouled things up. Even in death, Commodore
is inept.
>> Anyway , what to we have to lose?
Nothing. I'm not saying it isn't worth the effort. I'm just not sure the
results will be positive. 🙁 However, don't that that stop you. You never
know until you try…
Wayne
I've read this whole thread as a part of the mourning process. Although a
relatively new Amiga owner (I bought a 2000 along with the Toaster), I am
amazed by the machine. It seems incredible to me that a machine which
processes video so well does not have a viable future, even within the
specialized world of video production.
But I have also had the opportunity to witness a complicated bankruptcy
up-close. The rumour, gossip, misinformation, false hopes, etc. surrounding
these proceedings are incredible. And because these situations are so
complicated, and because the truth is held in little bits and pieces by so many
different people, it is very hard to figure out what is going on anyway. Very
few people, if any have a broad enough vantage point. I'm sure it has taken
the full year just to figure out what is going on.
What I learned from bankruptcy, is that the entity is dead until it proves
itself otherwise. Especially in the world of technology, which changes so
fast, a platform which is out of r&d and production for a full year is being
quickly eclipsed by competitors (i.e. FAST, the Mac with the upcoming PCI bus,
etc.) I, for one, plan to milk every last ounce of life out of the dear Amiga,
but have resolved not to invest more money in the platform until it proves it
has a future. Assuming the Amiga is dead, which it is, at least for now, is
far less painful, and certainly financially wiser, than investing more time,
money and energy in uncertainty.
The king is dead; long live the king. And hold on to those dollars. One thing
is for sure; as this durge drags on, there are going to be some great deals out
there!!!!!
David:
>> The king is dead; long live the king.
I think that sums-up how I feel pretty well.
Wayne
"as this durge drags on, there are going to be some great deals out
there!!!!"
Tell me about it – I just picked up a 4000/40 for $1200!
Then you will be happy to know that you got that machine for well under HALF
the market price. Don't tell the seller. <G>
-Karl
Really? I thought it was just a couple of hundred bucks under market
value…
Let me guess – from a blind old lady who just inherited it?
DJ
Jon,
Listen carefully:
1. The trustees are not elected officials.
2. Their ONLY job is to sort out what was the company being liquidated
and obtain the best deal they can for the creditors.
3. They generally require approval of the liquidation plan by either
the courts, the creditors, or both.
4. As owners of product, we are not creditors, thus our wishes and
desires have no bearing on the final outcome.
5. If they don't first find out what it is they are selling (figure out
exactly what the corporate entity "Commodore" consisted of), they would be
derelict in their duty…even if it ends up getting a lower price (due to the
delays) that if they just put the entity up for bit the day of the liquidation.
They would also be liable for damages if they did this.
6. They will end up getting the best price they can, even if it means
breaking up the company in such a manner that the Amiga Computer will never be
produced again.
That's their job, it is not their job to listen to non-creditors, which
is what we, as owners, are.
Don
>> [The trustees'] ONLY job is to .. obtain the best deal they can for the
creditors ..
Undoubtedly true in this case. But what many of us, as spectators, wonder
is: what happens if they do a lousy job? Say, dragging out a liquidation
proceeding so that: (a) the recovered value is much less than it would have
been with prompt action; and (b) the liquidators' fees are greatly increased?
The liquidators appear to report only to the Bahamian Supreme Court, not to
the creditors. The creditors, in turn, could place arguments before that court
that things are not proceeding in their best interests, but to what avail?
Courts everywhere proceed at their own leisurely pace, and placing new
arguments before them rarely speeds up their activities.
So we sit here, as spectators/victims, and wonder: who's got the buck? If
it's the liquidators, they hardly seem to have been deporting themselves in a
fashion intended to "obtain the best deal they can for the creditors". And we
see no visible signs of anyone saying, "LET'S GET MOVING".
It's understandable that owners might be tempted to say, "Isn't there
anything WE can do to light a fire under those (with all due respect) DONKEYS?
–Jim
Jim,
YOur analogy to spectators is a good one. And our position as owners
is no more that the position of spectators at a sports contest. We can cheer,
boo or sit silent…but the decisions are made on the field by the coaches and
players…and all of our noise won't turn a loss into a win for the home team.
We don't have to like what's going on on the playing field or in the
courts…and we can cheer or boo…but we can't influence the outcome.
Don
"If it's the liquidators, they hardly seem to have been deporting themselves in
a fashion intended to "obtain the best deal they can for the creditors". And
we see no visible signs of anyone saying, "LET'S GET MOVING"."
A more basic reality is that we actually see nothing of the liquidation
process. We hear rumors occasionally, but really have no insight into the
process.
The biggest part of the process for the trustees is not the sale of the
assets, but proving that they exist in the first place and then determining the
validity and priority of the various creditors claims, settling out taxes. With
the maze of international corporations that made up CompuServe, that is not a
simple task.
I'm certainly not defending the slow pace of the sale of the assets, but I do
understand how that pace can be controlled by a thousand other factors.
Jerry
"With the maze of international corporations that made up CompuServe" –now
there's a Freudian slip!
Marion Deland
CROSSINGS – Newsletter for Amiga/PC/Mac compatibility
Hehehehe – yep. There may be something to that analysis. <G>
Jerry
Jim,
I agree, the liquidators may not be pristine, god-like creatures, making
enlightened decisions and acting unfailingly in the best interests of the
creditors. Maybe, they, like a lot of laywers I know, just keeping the pot
boiling so that they can keep receiving fees. (Please forgive me, all of you
lawyers out there)
There is something we can do. We can write them letters. We can let them know
that we are here and that we are not happy. If you want to light a fire under
the donkeys, strike a match by writing a letter. It will even make you feel
good!
FIGHTBACK!
Jon Byk
From a T-shirt I saw in Bali:
"Only artists and lawyers can turn black into white"
DJ
Has anyone wondered why the creditors are not trying to speed things up?
We run around talking about what a lousy job the trustees are doing for
the creditors, yet there hasn't been much word of the creditors moving to
get the trustees to the table.
Trust me, the creditors are not ignoring the actions of the trustees.
That they haven't pitched a fit, says volumes to me.
Alex:
>> Trust me, the creditors are not ignoring the actions of the trustees. That
they haven't pitched a fit, says volumes to me.
You know, I never really considered that point. Now that you bring it up, it
says volumes to me as well. 🙁
Wayne
"Trust me, the creditors are not ignoring the actions of the trustees.
That they haven't pitched a fit, says volumes to me."
I don't think we have any idea of what the creditors are doing, saying or
thinking. In any event, for the secured lenders, its small potatoes and they're
pretty accustomed to bankruptcies. I would suspect most them just don't really
care a whole lot. For the smaller creditors, the ones who had no security –
well, they come after the big secured guys and in most cases they're just plain
out of luck.
Overall, I doubt that the creditors are even paying any attention to it,
having written off their losses some months back.
Jerry
Don,
You're right and you're wrong. Sure, the Trustees have a job to do and their
responsibility is to the creditors and to the courts (or whatever they have in
the Bahamas). But you're wrong about their getting a lower price and/or
percipitating the murder of Amiga. That, my friend, is definately not OK. It
is too bad and it is just plain dumb. If these guys are "doing their duty",
they are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Media pressure affects people. Politicans sway your thinking with tele- vision
commercials, radio spots and direct mail advertising. Think of a letter
writing campaign to the Trustees as direct mail advertising.
Surely, they can toss your letter into the trash, but if they get your letter
and tens of thousands more, believe be, we – are – going – to – get – their –
attention.
Instead of telling me that it can't be done and that we have no status, you
should be making use of your prestiege in the Amiga community by posting the
names and addresses on All of the bulleting boards and suggesting that we all
write letters – more than one – to the Trustees.
FIGHTBACK!
Jon Byk
I agree…Just getting those letters will let them know that there is someone
else out here that has an interest in the farce…er,um, I mean the procedings
going on down there. Even though they won't read those letters, they'll know
that we are here…Can't hurt.
—Stephen—
===On AutoPilot 1.77–With Intel "All over my desk"===
Stephen,
Thank you! Will you write a letter? And, will someone have the courage to
post the names and the address of the trustees?
Jon,
Yes…I have already written three. I just need to know where to send them.
—Stephen—
===On AutoPilot 1.77–With Intel "All over my desk"===
Jon,
Sorry…I totally disagree with you.
Don
Congressmen (and women) read their constituents' mail because their job is to
be responsive to them, and they would be out of a job if they didn't. I'd like
to think the trustees would read our letters, but the truth is, they probably
wouldn't. After all, if they cared, they could read our opinions on-line.
Marion Deland
CROSSINGS – Newsletter for Amiga/PC/Mac compatibility
Marion,
How do you know that the Trustees won't read our letters? Certainly, if we
don't write them, they won't read them.
As far as the Trustees getting on line on Compuserve and popping up to the
AmigaUser zone, I think that that is a bit of a reach.
All of us have computers! And word processing programs (I love my Final
Writer) – and printers, and most of us can afford the postage. It's quick!
It's easy! Write a letter Marion.
Somebody please post the names and address every day.
FIGHTBACK!
Jon Byk
The flaw in your thinking regarding a letter campaign, is that unlike
congressmen, the trustees are not up for election.
Oh, I don't know that EVERYONE loses. There are a couple of ex-Commodore
executives that seem to have done rather well for themselves.
Mark:
>> There are a couple of ex-Commodore executives that seem to have done rather
well for themselves.
PLEASE don't remind me! 🙁
Wayne