#LightWave Madness
61 messages in this thread
Hmmm, 3.0 huh? I'm curious what changes are made in LightWave of 2.0.
Curiouser also – I heard some outrageous price somewhere around here that
to upgrade from 2.0 to 3.0 was a whopping $2000.00! I find that hard to
believe as that's more like the asking price of a New Toaster.
The thought of upgrading to 3.0 within a year of purchasing the 2.0 is
mind numbing not to mention that now I'm finally getting a grasp on
texturing, mapping and surfacing – they go and change the rules on me!!
How REVOLTING!!! :>
I'll definitely check out the JVC BR's
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
I personally Feel the next Toaster Upgrade will be $500 or so, but the
PRICE to BUY a new Toaster will go up considerably MORE than $500.
This is only an OPINION, no facts are here. I'd say the next Toaster
System will be $3000 on the Street compared to the $1999 that most places
have itt for now.
That 2000.00 upgrade price from LW 2.0 to New.0 is strictly a RUMOR. I
repeat a RUMOR! No prices as of yet have been announced.
JG
I just wish I could get the Toaster to animate right now without having to
also buy a Single Frame Controller, Single Frame Recorder, and then later
when I'd like to wipe and fade to another sequence have to buy two more
VCR's plus an Editor VCR. It'd be sharp if you were already a production
company that already had the budget or these items in hand. For the
standard Production Hobbyist that has House, Car, Bike, Credit Card,
Utility, as well as a Toaster/GVP 030 Combo Payments it presents a bit of
a problem in getting anything started with the Toaster, like perhaps being
able to market any anims to be able to buy that SFR etc…
I hate to appear as the penny pincher but there has to be a way to animate
the frames without also having to buy a SFR and Controller plus the
Toaster.
Amazing how effortless and Revolutionary the Toaster Demo Tape made it out
to be and didn't point out in the Demo that you also had to have that SFC,
SFC Controller, Frame Editor and all the countless other considerations
and costs to get the same result as the REVOLUTION demo.
Granted, when you've got the right equipment, the toaster can do some
spectacular things.
I guess my andpoint is that maybe I didn't really know what I was
getting into. But I had visions of sugar plumbs dancing in my head when I
saw the Rev demo and what I cou do with the Toaster.
So here I am a year later, without those fantastic animations and
fades/wipes because of the additional expenses in picking up the highly
specialized equipment that's needed to accomplish the end goal. ..But I
have a Toaster…that's about to be outdated by a rumored 3.0 and $3500
less, I'm still paying on
The add said something to the effect of 'The Video Toaster can replace a
$120,000 studio at only the price of $2500'.
If ever there is a 3.0 update to the Video Toaster I would certainly hope
an inclusive program would be available to at least convert the 24bit
IFF's to 16 and allow you to use a standard IFF anim program to view your
creations. I've tried Rend24 and from what I've seen I could have done
the same with VideoScape 3d.
The add mentioned a VCR and a Video Camera you'd need, and that's it.
So, knocking on the door of NewTek – if your targeting the Amiga User in
DeskTop Video, you've got to provide him with the tools to animate – not
simply to render a frame and hand him the ball to animate it somehow.
The add didn't say I'd need an upteen dozenth thousand dollars to MAKE
that production studio as well as the Toaster.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Quick mention here Dude, I dunno WHERE Beantown is but Jeff Hanna in
Illinois will GLADLY output your Anim Frames to SVHS a Frame at a Time
for a MEASLY 10 cents a frame. Let me know if ye'd like the # to Contact
this Gent. He accepted Frames on Syquest 44 meg and 88 meg Carts last time
I Typed to him on here or possibly Genie and may also accept them on
Backup tapes now as well.
Good Luck in yer Business Ventures.
Good Grief, I thought everyone knew where BeanTown was — Lima, Ohio!
Silly 🙂
Had about 4 people ask me where BeanTown is heheh
Guess I'll change my sign off.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Beantown is Boston
too ;-}
Yea, but Lima beans have better taste…
;>
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Has your bubble burst?
Dreams been shattered? Are you peeking into a world of hopeless expenses.
Do you think you've been deceived?
Well…..
Goodnews Rodney. There are many of us that have been tromping the halls of
CI$ and watching the birth of a true revolution for years. The Toaster is
a part of that and many of us have been where you are now.
Go back and watch the demo tape again. Then watch the video "A minds Eye".
Think about what you REALLY want to do and then come back and talk to us.
We are very good at what we do. We can help put your dreams on a video
tape, polished, done, and perfect.
For starters- You can rent the equipment you need and stay way ahead for
a very long time. This will give you the chance to find the equipment that
works best for your projects. You can also have someone record your
rendered pics onto tape for a nominal cost, even via snail mail.
You can do whatever you dream. It may take some time, waiting, testing and
compromise, but it can be done, and not cost you too much money.
You really are in for a treat, just hang on and ask for as much help as
you need.
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
Oh, I don't think this is my first day on the job Laddy, I'm just not so
big I can't ask for some help or advice from those with which we have
something in common.
I've been in the computer arena since the Vic-20 and before.
I'm not going to say I'm a Videographer, I'm a hobbiest who enjoys
computer animation, and a collector of them. I own the Mind's Eye along
with every Amiga Animation tape that's been made by AmigaWorld – I might
mention also, that I found no mention of the Amiga in The Minds Eye.
I decided long before I bought the Toaster what I wanted to do when I was
working with VideoScape 3d.
I think this base is a tremendous asset to all of us – being that were not
in a Videographers only club and I don't feel the slightest bit alienated
by your past message.
Thanks for the advice.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Rodney, none of the footage on the Minds Eye or it's sequel were generated
on Personal Computers. If I'm not mistaken it's all Appollo's, Sun's and
SGI's. Don't feel bad that the Amiga didn't make it onto these Video's.
Perhaps the next release if their is one will have some FX from the
Amiga from Quantum Leap or Babylon 5
The beauty of 3d animation is that it is possible and quite attainable to
do what the author did using certain equipment. It's like: 'Hey, I can do
that!" and you probably could if you watched it a few times. Then you
think, how did this guy think of this?! It's about as far along as
artistry can come. The originality, the storyline.
It's really fun watching someones creativity come to fruitation. The
artists creativity, then is discovered, and not the equipment that's the
beauty.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Get the new AW Amigamations tape, I think you'll enjoy it tho I would have
picked a Different Winner than Fred the Floaty
Is that tape out already? Guess I'll have to go back through my issue of
AW and find out how to order it!
Steve
I picked up the Amigamations Tape at WOCA last weekend and saw it
advertised in the new issue of Amigaworld that I got 2-3 days ago in the
mail. It's pretty good Eric Fleischer has 2 anims on there including the
Winner Fred the Floaty and another called "Commuter Chip"
The Toaster isn't quite the place to Start, when it comes to video
production. But it is a GREAT place to start in 3D rendering/animation.
VTR's, TBC's, and video cameras are all necissary before you even think
of using the toaster, or doing any video production.
DCTV is the way to go for getting your anims to tape. Thats the least
expensive (DCTV $299) solution and also almost necissary for doing ;test anims
before going to tape with SFR
The future of video is definately digital, and DCTV is one of the first
devices capable of displaying full screen hi-res, hi-color images at
near realtime speeds on your present system NOW.
….John
Sounds like DCTV is what I'm going to have to get! So, it's still a
valuable tool even after you purchase the SFR? I was concerned about
throwing money away to DCTV when it could go towards the SFR – which more
and more is looking like the Sony EVO-9650 Hi8. There's only one problem
with it though, it can't dub over to VHS for a beta copy! There was a
review on it in Video Toaster User Oct/Nov '92. The reviewer liked it so
well he bought one himself! :>
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
WHAT????? I see no reason that you cant dub from the 9650 to VHS. Maybe
I'm bonkers. Well thanx to the MAGIC of Autopilot's offline reader I
just went and looked up the article in VTU about 9650. NOWHERE in the
article does it say you CAN'T Dub to VHS. What it DOES say is there is no
3/4" DUB OUT. You simply use the Composite out to dub to VHS or get a
S-Video to BNC Cable and you can dub to VHS. Hope this Allay's yer fears
dude.
I'll read it again later but you know the article I'm speaking of. I
thought I read that's what he said – I haven't got it here in front of me
and I'm near on going to bed. Man, I liked the look of that SFR – It'd
look just right on my desk here. I'll have to get a spot ready for it.
The things I could do with that baby!
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
If you can afford a $6000 VCR, $2000 for an upgrade is is a piece of
cake.
It takes big bucks to play with the big boys.
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
Yea, I agree strongly!!
Now, it's the $6000 for the VCR that's giving me the headache, I've
already spent $6000 for the Computer.
I already consider myself a Big Boy, just in Little Boys shoes (Budgetwise
that is) 🙂
I have no doubt in my mind that I can rival the likes of Local Television
stations that use their Toaster for wipes and fades on their news (which
by the way they currently use) or in their commercials.
I need to get started, and I need to do it now, but $3000 – $6000 may as
well be a cool million right now. At least until I can get all this paid
off to go back into debt with a SFR and controller.
What I really want to do here is get by with a software solution to
animating my LW IFF Animation saves until I can afford to take that bank
loan for the REAL equipment I need so very badly!!!
So far I've gotten 2 recommendations:
1) JVC BRS622 SFR
2) SONY 9650 Hi8 SFR which doesn't even require a SFC
I also got a recommendation for a JVC BRS605 – but it's a bit risky for
the money as being VERY low end. If I've got to spend GOOD money I need
to spend it wisely, on something that will go the distance. A wise
investment to build my DeskTop Video Empire (Feel a bit Imperialistice!)
Right now, today though, I need a software solution, like, where the heck
is IFFtoDCTV and I've got to dl View 3.6…until I raise or can borrow the
$3000 – $6000. I work in the Auto Industry so, to say the least, I've got
to be careful how I spend my hard earned dollars!!!
Better to be getting out of debt than to be up to your neck and get laid
off.
So it's best to start with something that can eventually build towards
that JVC or Sony and jump into that Big Boys boat and exchange videos and
accept commercial bids.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
IFF2DCTV is probably in the LIBS here bro, check area 14 of Amigaarts
I think it is part of the ADAM archive. But as I mentioned DCTV anims
REQUIRES DCTV otherwise all you will see is mish mosh. The DCTV Hardware
converts the Mish mosh into a High Color image. For now Try using HAM 4096
Colors for yer anims at least you can put a demo reel together. If $300
isn't too hard a pill to swallow get a DCTV and do a bit better job.
As with Everything you must Spend $$$ to make $$$
Yea, I think your right. And I did check out the Libs for IFF2DCTV – No
go. I'll grab ADAM and see what damage I can do with that until DCTV
comes this way. From the sound of it I can use it even after I buy the
SFR.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Go for it tho till ya get DCTV hardware ADAM is USELESS
Yea, just gathered that when I was given the low down on what exactly DCTV
consisted of.
Oh well, at least it's nice to know I'm plodding along on the right course
as to using Rend24 and ViewTek – that's about all the ammo I got
until I can pick up DCTV.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
The 622 wont doit – need the JVC BR-S822 for SF.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Ok, well what if we put the JVC BRS822 next to the Sony EVO-9650?
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
I have a JVC BR-S822 with the timecode card and I am VERY happy with it. At
first, I didn't wait for the single frame editor card to arrive, I just started
trimming my edits by hand to record my first animations.
Take the advice on others in this forum, rent the recording time as
needed.
Rend24 is MORE THAN ADEQUATE for roughing out your animations. Once you've
got it perfect, and the client is ready to pay, then have it dubbed to
tape.
It seems that you are unaware of exactly how much cheaper and easier it is
to do 3-D animations than it was just a few years ago. If you want to play
with the big boys, you gots to pay the price . . . (Just be thankful that
price is a tenth of what it used to be when this technology first came
online).
If you are going out to VHS in the near future, then Rend24 will be almost
adequate, and I bet that DCTV Anim7s would more than fill the bill. If you
are interested in doing the best QUALITY animations possible, then spend
the money for a single framing deck of high-quality (don't waste your time
with something that's going to 'maybe work, 99% of the time'). If you are
interested in getting your stuff on tape, then use a real-time playback
solution like DCTV and/or Anim7 and just dump it to tape.
It's the quality of the idea, not the quality of the dub that will sell
people…
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Yea, tried Rend24 with ViewTek and converted the Anims over to Anim7
format. Wow, that Rend24 really does a number on those 24bitters. Takes
it straight from Star Wars to The Jetsons.
Thankfully, the price has come down on the video equipment otherwise half
of us wouldn't be here talking about it and the companies selling it
wouldn't be either.
Your right I think, about DCTV it's basically the consensus (I think I
spelled that right) that that's the way to go from here. I'm still going
to putter with Rend24 and ViewTek till I pick that up.
There's no doubt in my mind I'm going to end up with a SFR – probably next
year. My chief concern is that my equipment I have now, may be becoming
obsolete with the advent of the AGA issue, so after the SFR, then a new
computer — Shheeesh! No dought, a new SFR after that…..
🙂
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
In a year we may see AFFORDABLE Recordable Optical Disks which IMHO is a
better avenue than a Single Frame VTR. They are currently priced out of
most peoples league tho.
Whad'ya mean not affordable!
They're down to $18,000 now, piece of cake.
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
hehehehehehehehehe for a mere $6000 LESS I can get a Saturn Automobile
hehehehehehe. I'll be VERY Happy when Recordable Optical Disks are under
$2000
Oh well, you can't get blood from a turnip, and Amiga HAM graphics are
pretty rough for the current video market. But, it does make a great way
to preview animations (I usually set one up every night before I go to
bed.)
I have as yet to even SEE a DCTV unit in operation, so I can't say for
sure that it works, but everyone else thinks so. they're probably right.
You should SERIOUSLY consider just buying the Personal SFC, and wait for a
year or so to get the recorder ('til the dust settles.) You should be able
to find a local facility that would rent the recorder on an hourly basis,
and you just bill that to your client. I've found that a mixture of 24bit
animations and HAM preivew ainms are more than adequate for selling
clients on an idea.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Thats the problem – see in Lima, were in the Northwest Corner of Ohio, and
absolutely nothing is near except Toledo or Columbus – and Lima is a small
town. Anything that high priced is not going to be able to be rented-let
alone carried in stock.
Some VCR's don't require the SFC as it's already built into the unit, at
least that's true for the one I've got my eye on.
But, yes I think I'm stuck with the Jerky Jetson's until I pick up DCTV.
I'd like something psuedo-realistic that has fluid motion.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Rodney,
I'm in Oak Harbor, about 20 miles east of Toledo. There are a few places
in Toledo that you can go to to use frame accurate decks; you may also use
your HAM anims as a demo if you're selling to video houses, and be able to
use THEIR equipment to record the 24-bit stuff. You'll need to have an
SFC for most places, because they won't have that.
For the cost, the Nucleus unit would be hard to beat; I've probably
recorded 10K frames with it, and haven't had a problem yet. It'll work
with most decks used that are frame accurate (they also need an internal
timecode board and a serial (9-pin) connection, but don't worry about that
if you're going to a pro, as they typically buy 'the good stuff').
If you don't mind driving about 70 miles some day, let's get together for
a few hours at my place, and I'll show you my setup. Bring some frames,
and we'll stick 'em on tape so you can see the process.
I'll give you a call when I get back from vacation (about a week), and see
whats up.
BTW, the anim I did for the local PBS station is being played about 8
times a day now for their auction promos. Oops, make that about 20, just
saw it again, what a thrill! HANG IN THERE AND KEEP PLUGGING, IT'LL
HAPPEN!!!
(Hey, anybody else out there live around here? I feel a party coming!)
… Nate, E.V. Navigating on AP *** 3D TV! ***
Well, a tempting offer to say the least! Yea, lets get together sometime.
My first acquisition will be DCTV to start with until I can afford a
SFR.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Are there any local TV stations? If so, then they must do some local
production. Better yet, try hooking up with a local PBS station, if one
exists. (You could probably work out a deal trading animation for access
to their recorders.)
My qualms with the new PC-VCRs (to mention ONE type that has already been
discontinued) is that they are too new to the market. The integrated units
are still being sold at inflated prices which should drop in the next
year. The quality of the recordings is not going to be near what you'd get
from a professional deck, and by buying a specific recorder, you are
locked into supplying your product in that format.
Personally, I've never used Hi8, but I've heard enough complaints about
the high dropout count to know that I wouldn't trust Hi8 for the rigors of
protracted single frame recording. (In most cases, the deck has to
pre-roll the tape for EVERY frame recorded to tape – this puts alot of
wear on the tape & mechanism.)
Just my $.02,
Erik Flom
My main concerns would be on the Head of the SFR, as long as it doesn't
wear easily because that would be the first thing that would go out on a
VCR.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Head wear is a good thing to consider too.
Considering that Hi8 achieves its superior results by using a more
abrasive metal tape, there's another strike against any Hi8 SFR system I
could think of.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
I use a hat for head wear.
JG
So your saying that Hi8 decks wear faster than say, S-VHS?
Now, I got this EVO-9650 memorized as the one to get and it's the only one
that's really made with your computer in mind.
How long would you say it would take before you'd have to have some
serious work done on it?
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Here's a combination that's worked for me. I use a Panasonic AG-7750 with Fuji
H471S S-VHS tape. I have not seen a dropout in the 10 months I have used this
tape. No other formulation has come close to the consistancy of this product.
I have a friend who's worked at several post houses, and he swears by
Fuji.
Personally, I have few reservations about using S-VHS for SFR, but I just
don't think Hi8 could give me a low enough dropout count.
I'M waiting for the non-linear solution myself . . .:^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
I wonder what kind of a deck they used to record that space station in the
Revolution tape? Noticed a slight jog in one frame of it too.
Oh, by the by, I looked over the tape last night while I was downloading a
file, and sure enouph – when the guy was playing around with the chess
pieces in LightWave – the 1st voice says 'And I can do all this?' The
video goes to Allan Hastings' Bee buzzing and the telephone render turning
and opening. The 2nd voice says 'Yes, and for only $2500!'
Aaaarrrggghhh!!
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Erik,
What I'm finding around here is that S-VHS isn't really that popular yet;
the local houses I've checked with either do real timecode/SFR/Broadcast
($$$) OR they have S-VHS, but not both. The old standards 3/4 (mostly)
and Beta SP are usually what's asked for.
The local PBS station has them, 1" (ancient), and a couple of MII decks
that they're not too thrilled about. The local commercial stations use
all that and D2. They don't seem to mind you bringing in your own
equipment to use if the quality is up to snuff (toaster or your editor).
They may not be as amenable to letting one use Hi8.
The moral of the story is that S-VHS is good for at home and in some other
cases, but there's always another way to get what you need done if the
price is right.
BTW, after using a 3/4 deck, the 7750 seems sorta clunky.
… Nate, Emerald Video. Flyin' IFR on AP
Well once ye get my Tape you'll see some Second Generation DCTV thruput.
Since I use DCTV almost exclusively
Yeah, I saw the results. Much better than just straight HAM.
(Makes me jealous.)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Yea, tho it will NEVER replace a GOOD SFR but for many folks it is a DREAM
come true to have High Color Anims run FAST without mortgaging the house.
I don't think I would say Non-linear (Digital) will NEVER replace
high end SFR's or VTR's. Give the h/w s/w people a couple years and we'll
be seeing some Incredible stuff I bet (cheap).
Its impossible for Anyone to predict the incredible leaps in computer
h/w. Too bad the programmers can't even come close to keeping up with
the advances in h/w technology.
I WANT MY DMI Editmaster, Wish they'ed perfect the s/w after it's hit the
streets like Newtek did with the Toaster.
….John
I heard somewhere that the Editmaster required the Vivid24 board to operate. It
sounds goofy to me but does anyone know for sure?
John, either my msg was ambiguous or you read more into my msgs than I
meant. I was talking about DCTV NOT NON LINEAR Editing when I said it
would never replace a SFR. At Least I think thats what I was talking about
to Erik.
Rodnet-
I got some more goodnews/advice. You might want to hold off on the SFR.
DCTV is the tool of choice now for lightwave, but just around the corner
is the "BOX". These are devices about to be released that spew your 24 bit
IFF's out of this "BOX" in real time. All this for around $2000. This is
probably the next step in Lightwave magic. Keep an eye on DMI and Impulse.
Oh- and a BIG harddrive.
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
Thanks, yea I'm working on picking up DCTV.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Rodney,
I mentioned the 2K number as a rumor. Previous rumors haave had it at the
900-1300 range.
As for the features, I doubt you'll haave to unlearn what you already
know. More likely there will just be a whole lot more to learn!
I cant wait to see it. SOunds like Lee demoed a problem I posed as a
upgrade wish way back when – the animated ribbon streamer. Lots of other
folkes must have asked for some non-rigid body support too. I think that
is the MOST important thing that could be added. And it would not be easy
or done in a small amount of code.
As for the time, well they are working maily, I believe, in Assembly. For
a product of that size the development time doubles when assembly is used
over a high end language. However, since it is a realtime I/O device the
Toaster probably MUST have assembly drivers.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne, quick note here, Lee Stranahan really didn't DEMO a Ribbon Streamer
per se but created one with the new Deformation mapping function. Maybe
I'm picking Nits here. Anyway he created the Streaming Ribbon in like 30
seconds.
Peter,
Hopefully they will demo it at NAB. The deformation map is probably and
easy thing to implement as opposed to like a true kinematic model. But
hey – if it looks right and the customer is happy, your there, right?
wmc – via Autopilot!
I think it's safe to assume NewTek will show the new version of LW3D at
the "Toaster Pavilion" at NAB in Vegas. And yes as long as an Effect
"WORKS" and is easy to create who CARES what its called.
The Toaster is all Assembly while LightWave is still done in C at this
point.
JG
Oh! Guess that explains why Lightwave is potentially going to have its
upgrade avialble first (if you believe the rumors).
Personally, I think they would be better off keeping non-realtime stuff
in high level language just for the ease of update and lower depndence on
specific programmers for specific code. Actually, it doesn't matter –
just that I think assembly is great except when there is LOTS of code and
short deadlines.
wmc – via Autopilot!
I know, it's just the possibility, and more and more the likelihood (I
need a dictionary!) of it happening. Lessee now, SFR, then Computer, then
New Toaster…..Ugh.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *