#3D CD-ROM users
57 messages in this thread
We're working on an upcoming CD-ROM-based product that should appeal to users
of Amiga 3D programs such as Imagine, LightWave, Sculpt, etc. Can I get a show
of hands? If you own a CD-ROM drive, please raise your hand and post a reply
to this message. If you're a 3D user who's just thinking about buying a drive,
please post, too. If you're in the first group, what sorts of discs do you have
now? If you're in the second, what are you waiting for?
John,
I own a CD-ROM, and would be interested in a collection of 3-D
objects…will there be Aladdin support?
Jonathan, via AutoPilot // Entombed in ice
\\// and snow in Albany, NY
John, I have a CDROM drive, but I'm not much into 3D.
—Betty
John,
One note on the design of the CD-ROM disc… It would be great if you cold
design it with two factors in mind: (1) Some of us have CDTVs rather than
dedicated Amiga CD-ROM drives, so we'd be pulling the objects off the disc
and onto floppies (or over PARNET) to use them on our real Amigas; so it
would be great if some sort of easy copy facility was provided.
Also, if possible, please make the files accessible from PC units. Due to
the low prices of PC drives, many folks with both platforms seem to be
putting less-expensive drives in their PC units. (I just ordered a
multisession Photo-CD-capable drive, with access software and 350MS/150K
transfers, for $249 for Jerry, My Icky Intel Machine.) Is there any way to
get data off Amiga CDs using a PC CD-ROM drive? (I don't know if the
filename length restrictions would cause problems.)
Anyway, it sounds really interesting!
Many CDROM disks can be used by either PC or MACs. That is, as I
understand it, because they have the search software for both machines on
the disks, and each machine picks up the software it needs. These disks
have the data only once, but two search software packages. I wonder if a
disk could have three software packages and one data set? It has to be
harder to make things compatible with MAC and PC, because of the format
the MAC is expecting. I think they call it HFC? With the right software,
the MAC can use the data in ISO9660 format, but PC and Amiga both expect
ISO 9660. Seems to me that it would be really easy to make a disk
readable by both machines, or even all three. But maybe I just don't
understand the problems involved.
—Betty
Betty, would you believe that actually people put TWO sets of data on the
CD??? I've talked with some and that's the _easier_ way to do it (so I'm
told). I'm baffled by that response, but that's what they say.
Vic,
I read a file in CDROM forum about that. It said that many of the
manufacturers are putting the MAC version on with both software and data
using the Macintosh HFC (hope I remembered that right) format, and then
putting the IBM software and also the data in ISO9660 format. But,
according to that file, others are putting on the data only once, with
software for the MAC and also with software for the MSDOS machine. In
this case, both computers use ISO9660 data. I gathered that the early
discs for both computers mostly had dual sets of data, but that the newer
ones are mostly going with one set of data and two pieces of software. I
think this was in their file named something like FAQ.ZIP.
—Betty
Betty,
Nope, it is indeed easy to make a disc that's readable on all three
platforms. I've grabbed data off PC and Mac discs using CDTV.
What I DON'T know is this… Suppose John did a disc of 3-D objects, with
full Amiga filenames. Even though the disc is in the ISO9660 format the PC
expects, what's it going to do when it hits the Amiga's directory/filename
structure?
I _think_ MSCDEX (Microsloth's CD-ROM extension) supports longer
filenames.
I think you are right about MSCDEX. In fact, I believe I read that it
supports 32 characters – two more than the Amiga.
—Betty
I'd be surprised if MSCDEX actually supported the 20-char filenames possible in
ISO-9660. DOS certainly doesn't understand anything but 8.3,and it gets very
confused when you insert a CD with longer filenames. So access to longer
filenames might be possible at some lower level, from within programs that
understood – but that would be tough to do, and a lot of re-inventing the
wheel.
ISO-9660 can supposedly implement the Mac's data/resource fork dichotomy using
some special bits that mark that a file has an auxilliary file. This would let
you make a true ISO-9660 disc that brought up proper icons and executables and
data/resource files on a Mac. I've seen discs like this. They weren't mixed
mode (a disc with both ISO and Mac HFS images).
There's a lot of tricks like this. I'm still over my head, and over most
people's head, when I ask about whether a given mastering program can handle
certain features. For example, I want to make a differently-mixed ISO disc –
long filenames for Amigoids in some sub-directories with mixed upper-
lower-case filenames, which are actually in violation of the ISO spec, where
filenames must be upper-case. The Mac handles upper/lower filenames on ISO
discs just fine, though. I need longer names and mixed-case names to properly
represent Sculpt .scene files. Sculpt's requester only shows *.scene files. No
foo.SCENE allowed, either. Duh.
I'm worried that a PC-base pre-mastering system won't be able to
un-archive a 'tar' tape of my disk image made on my Amiga. If the
filenames come off the tar tape with longer names, how does the
premastering software fold the filenames behind DOS's back?
Now, I've seen P.D. hacks for DOS that lengthen the filenames, but
that seems so risky to me… 🙂
Oooo ooo teacher, Here I is. I'm in group 1 a 3D Junkie as well as a CDTV
owner which I use as a CDROM via Parnet. The few CDROMS I have are mostly
of images like the Texture City Pro 100 disk, Walnut Creeks GIF's Galore
and another named Storm II(also full of GIF's). I hope you have added the
BD-Girl object here onto yer CDROM as it is one of the best objects I've
seen. Will this disk be ready by WOC???? I want it I want it.
Here I am again, behind the times. I haven't seen this BD-Girl object. Who
made it, where is it?
The BD-Girl object is here in the Amigaarts area 10. as to who made it I
really don't know as the Docs are in GERMAN. It was Uploaded only
recently. It is quite a nice set of objects and includes a Imagine Project
already setup and ready to render(you have to do an assign tho). It's
approx 400K file.
I have a CD-Rom (as you know). I use Imagine some. I have Nasa PDS discs,
GIF discs, some PeeCee discs(a couple of games for the 486 pig), FF disc,
AB20, Walnut Creek Desktop Library. Looking for Clipart, 24bit images at
reasonable cost and the 3d objects ARE interesting to me.
Goin' AP
…..Mark Sterling
John,
I'm seriously debating buying a CD-ROM drive for my system. I use
Lightwave & Imagine extensivly, and would love to have all of my most used
stuff on CD. Plus, since a local dealer can create custom CD-ROMs for a
small fee, it would be great. BUT, the only thing holding me back from
blowing $400 or so on one is the fact that theres squat in the 3rd party
support department in software, unless you want to play a mean game of Sim
City or something. The one true thing that would send me to the Amiga
dealer for a CD-ROM drive is having Toaster 3.0 & LW Pro (along with a few
hundred megs of objects/tools/goodies) released soon on CD.
So… give us the dirt on what your thinking of releasing. Anything
Lightwave compatable will work for me!
Terry
On Demo Autopilot (I'm cheap… so sue me.)
You sound like a perfect customer for this disc! I'm hoping that there's a lot
more people like you…
John,
Would there be any type of copyright problems with sharing the objects
on this proposed CD? I have a friend with the CD570? for his 500 (I'm
CDless), he is not that interested in 3D but loves maniputating pictures.
Would it be proper if he/I/we bought this CD from you and shared the
objects? Most of the stuff there will be pd/shareware is it not?
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
It's not so much that Syndesis wants to be in the object publishing business,
as that this disc will be a great demonstration of our translation technology.
It's tough to make a working demo of a translator: weither it works or it
doesn't. So we've been very careful to only collect truly public domain
objects, or freely distributable demo objects, and we do not intend to limit
your use of them in any way. I believe we've rejected any "shareware" objects
out of hand, along with any that have any upload restrictions. So yes, please
feel free to copy the entire disc to floppies – except there's going to be
megabytes and megabytes of them. 🙂
Are you Mastering the CDROM inhouse or sending it out to a Vendor like
Topix? I For one am DYING to get my hands on this CDROM
We wanted to pre-master (convert files to one big ISO-image file) in-house, but
then CBM changed the royalty agreement on the use of their pre-mastering
software. This would have given us a bit more control. For this first run,
we'll work closely with a mastering house. For the second run, we'll use the
profits from the first run to buy our own mastering equipment. That means we'll
have more discs in the future!
GREAT, Also if you HAVEN'T contacted Topix you should. They ahve a
Complete System starting at $8500 for Mastering CDROM's for most systems I
got their Brochure a while back and immediately started to Drool and
WISH.
And Pinnacle Micro has a system for about $3000, including software and CD-R
writer, except you still need a big hard disk and a Macintosh to run it.
$3000 !!!!!! Thats not Bad at all. MAC's aren't priced in the Ether
anymore from what I understand. In Fact I've been told I could get a
IIVx for $1600 here in NY add another $2000 for a 1.2 gig HD and yer still
ahead of the Topix Hardware/Software which still would require me to get
the MAC and HD anyway.
Is Pinnacle Micro the Same Folks who make those Video DVE
machines???
Thanx for the info John.
THERE ARE !! I've been using the CDTV-PARNET-A 2000 setup for textures
and backgrounds in my production business. That many Lightwave 3-D
objects on a CD-Rom would just make my day. Let me know when/if the CD's
available.
Neil R. Thompson – Owner
YOUR OLD MAN PRODUCTIONS
John, I don't have a CD-ROM yet but I have been interested in getting one,
the only thing that has kept me from buying one is the limited amout of
stuuf available for Amiga users (I am not talking about games). If you
were to come out with this product I would most likely buy it even if I
didn't have a CD-ROM, as this would make me buy one. :^)
<<< Tony D. Tracer >>>
John,
I don't have a CD-ROM yet, but will be getting one soon. I've really been
waiting for CD-ROM drives to be compatible with multi-session (i.e.
PhotoCD) recordings. I have Imagine and Aladdin 3D (and hopefully
Lightwave soon) and would love to have some stuff on CD-ROM.
Rick
Since you asked — I have a CD-ROM drive. Discs I have include: Fred Fish
On-line, AB20, Desktop library, GIFs Galore, Our Solar System, and Clipart
Goliath. A discs of 3D objects for Imagine, Caligari, LightWave, etc.
would be of interest to me if it is priced for the casual home hobbiest
(vice the commercial production studio!)….
The only thing holding me back from getting a CD-ROM drive is the availability
of useful software and your proposed CD is a major step in the right direction.
I have three buddies who own CD-ROM drives and I'm sure they would get the 3D
CD in a second.
John
Hand is up, sign me up. I was one of those that caught a deal on the NEC
CDR-80 when it got dumped. Kinda slow but works well. Didn't you help me out
of my termination woes on that project? :{)
I also saw BD-Girl mentioned…does anyone know if a more detail, hierachally
(sp? word?) version of this object exists? I got the doc suedo translated but
no help in there.
// \X/ -BiL-
I'm currently in the process of dismemebering the
BDGIRL object to allow use of it in the Cycle Editor to allow here to run
and preform other Movements.
We looked at doing that too but decided it was too time consuming to persue
right now. I hoped that Imagine 3.0 bones feature would let us insert bones
and tack the outside faces to the bone segments to achive this. We did notice
that the object appears to have been formed out of solid parts, probably in
forms editor. Note the seamless knees and such.
Will you be ul'ing your results after all that work? Knowing you, probably!
// \X/ -BiL-
Thats the Beauty of being a Hobbyist, Too Time Consuming means Nothing. I
don't have to show a profit hehehehehe. BTW before I finish Dismembering
BD-Girl I think I'm going to look more closely at Tim Wilsons new Humanoid
objects for Imagine and Lightwave, the 4 Object set has a Man, a Muscular
Man, a Woman and a Child. The price shown was $195 plus $5 shipping and
handling. I've got Tim's Cycleman object and it's quite nice, the Ad said
these new objects have a bunch of setups to make it look like it's talking
and different facial expressions as well as Hand Gesturing.
Looks interesting to say the least.
Perhaps I did help out with SCSI woes… I became sort of an expert on
troubles with GVP products.
Maybe someone who knows German (Steve Pietrowicz, step right up) would
translate the docs for us.
I missed whatever question drove these responses, John, but I would LOVE
to have a big CD full of objects! I just bought a CDTV real cheap and am
looking for neat things to feed it. (I just hope your disk won't turn out
like the "ab20" disk, to be unreadable by CDTV.)
Godod luck,
Karl
Karl, do you have an External Floppy Drive hooked up to yer CDTV? If Not
GET ONE and Boot off the Floppy and then you should be able to use the
files on AB20. I don't have AB20 but do have the GIF's Galore Disk from
Walnut Creek which works GREAT but since it doesn't have a CDTV Boot Block
on it I MUST boot from Floppy to do anything with it. I Strongly Suggest
making an Autoboot Copy of the Parnet software, get the Cable and Network
to whatever your MAIN Amiga is.
Make CDTV the Client and yer main Amiga the Host. Then all ya need to do
is on yer main amiga using CLI or whatever prg do "CD Net:Cd0" and it will
give ya directory for the CDROM in the CDTV, best of all you can CHANGE
CD's WITHOUT REBOOTING this way. Hope this helps you and is not something
you already knew.
Peter,
No, I didn't already know those details. I was halfway through building
a Parnet cable a month ago and have yet to finish it and then read through
the Parnet docs to get at the details you gave. Thank you.
Yes, I hooked up a spare external floppy to the CDTV yesterday and it
booted up fine in 1.3. I then dorked around with an audio CD-Player
program from Germany. That's about as far as I've gotten so far. I must
finish the Parnet stuff for that and other reasons: the 2000 still has
many pics/anims I don't want to transfer to the 4000 manually.
I'm surprised at what you say about the ab20 disk. Are you sure I can
use it this way? The Walnet Creek catalog says it won't work with CDTV.
Are you saying that they mean a normal use of CDTV, not going behind its
back with the floppy? I had pretty much assumed that I would have to boot
from floppy most of the time, as few of the titles that I want to collect
will have the CDTV boot block.
So what is the quality of the Texture City 100 disk like? I've gotten
burned in the past by very poor digitizations of things like marble
textures. Are they 24-bit, QUALITY scans? Or are they scans at all?
Thanks,
Karl
First, I think Walnutr Creek means that AB20 won't BOOT CDTV, it should be
readable if you boot from floppy. As to the Quality of te images on the
Texture City Disk, I think they are GORGEOUS. I don't know WHAT they used
to capture the images but whatever it was resulted in GORGEOUS images.
I recently used a few as backgrounds for some of my Imagine renderings and
got GREAT Results that I then shot onto Slides to submit to a few MAGS
like DTV World and AV/Video(seeing Eriks Work got me Jealous
hehehehehehe).
Here's a Quick test for yer AB20 disk, Boot with the Floppy, open
a CLI or Run a prg like Diskmaster and simply get a dir of CD0:
If you get a directory then you have no problems with AB20 if not then it
mustn't be a ISO-9660 CD
Hope this Helps. BTW I thin Redmond Cable make Parnet cables for around
$14
Hey, I never thought of that. I'll ask Walnut Creek if they just meant
that CDTV wouldn't BOOT CDTV. I'll have a Parnet hookup, so it'll be
treated as a data disk anyway. The Parnet cable is half done. (I bought a
cable to hack up, and wouldn't you know it, it's so well made [potted]
I'll have to chop an end off and replace it anyway. <chuckle>)
I don't have the ab20 disk yet, or I would indeed try it.
Thanks for the confirmation of Texture City disk quality. That's
definitely one I'll want. Maybe it'll finally spur me on to great renders!
Actually, I need time more than I need inspiration.
Karl
In THATR Case I also suggest getting Vistapro 3.03, the Rendering Times
are GODAWFUL but the images are GORGEOUS. This is at Ultimate settings.
Viatapro renderings make GREAT Backgrounds for 3D renderings
I don't know exactly what's wrong with "ab20" on a CDTV. Are you able to read
other ISO discs, but not that one? We will NOT be paying CBM's CDTV license
fees to make the disc CDTV bootable.
John,
Walnut Creek's catalog has within their listing for ab20 "(does not
work with CDTV)", or something like that. I've been told these folks are
pretty knowledgeable about all the CD-ROM formats and can be trusted to
say whether or not will work with CDTV. Someone told me that there's
something near the beginning of the ROM that hoses CDTV some way, but I
don't remember what it was; something that made it not just a data disk as
one would hope.
I'd certainly not expect you to support CDTV directly; I'd just hoped
that it would be a "generic" disk, like the Texture City disks and GIFs
Galore are (I'm told). Maybe something to look into is all.
Karl
"hierarchical" seems to be the preferred form, though "hierarchal" is also
correct (and easier to say). Noted that you were having trouble with
the word at the meeting, too, so I wanted to help out. <grin>
Karl
Thanks Karl, I need my Higher-Arky adjusted. That's what happens when you grow
up in Kentuck!
Hey, I have an AB20 disc, and as far as I can tell it is just as 9660 as any
other I have, including gifs galore, fish on cd, etc. It must be the fact that
is has no CDTV boot that makes Walnut Creek say no workie. What do they say
about their other disks with no cdtv boot? If you'd like to try it, I'd loan
it to ya, but I won't make the May meeting as I'll be Derby Partying in warm
sunny FLA! The AB20 disc wasn't that great anyway if you ask me.
I've got some back issues of the Fish CD I'll sell ya cheap!
Give me a call if your gonna be up my way. Or mail me at this address for
quicker turn around: woovis@jcnpc.cmhnet.org as I get there daily.
// \X/ -BiL-
I just ordered that AB20 disk from Creative Computers. At least one other
Amiga dealer is carrying it as a CD-ROM in their CDTV category. You don't
think they'd sell me a disc that wouldn't work, do ya? (heh, heh!)
You don't think Creative would sell you a disc that woudln't work? Have you
asked them about there stock of mothers and kitchen sinks? Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
-Bil-
I called Walnut Creek today and they said the only reason that they say
that ab20 doesn't work in CDTV is that the boot block is unrecognized by
CDTV (or maybe there isn't one at all). He said that it works fine with
Parnet, however. I saw an ab20 disk at last year's Computerfest for $15.
Arrrghh.
I'll wait to see their catalog that's coming, as well as check out
Hamvention before I buy any outdated disks from YOU!
Happy drinking,
Karl
I didn't think there could be anything wrong with the AB20 disc except the boot
block problem. I honestly don't see what that disc's attraction is as I have
only pulled a thing or two from it. I'd like to see a physik or wuarchive disc
to tell you the truth.
Success here sell most all Walnut Creek disc's for $17 and change so waiting
for hamvetion is a deal? Since you don't want to buy my old Fish cd's I guess
I'll take em out and frisbee 'em you encouragble slime-pup….NOT! :{)
All drinking is happy, but after a couple weeks o sun I won't be needin' it!
Asta la bye bye… -BiL-
I didn't know that Success sold them. Do they stock them?
You know how old Fish get. Peewww!
Karl
Success was stocking the AB20. I ahve not specifically looked for it lately
but I'm sure it's worth the look. The Graphics Volume 1 archive or whatever
disc I looked at there was pretty lame. 2 whole gifs on the disc. Dumb. Gif's
Galore is good as is Danger Hot Stuff. You will no doubt see those as well as
the VGA Spectrum at the hamfest. Sorry I'll miss this one.
I take it that VGA Spectrum is another picture disk?
Yes, the Highway Patrol has heard that you won't be coming, and has
started removing the barracades. Also, the barbed wire around the Holiday
Inn is coming down.
Have fun in FL!
Karl
John,
About the Oct'92 or so Mac-World did an article about exactly what you
are doing. It was a "how to" for mastering CD-Rom discs and from memory
covered using CD-Rom mastering beaureauxs to a panasonic mastering machine
and putting it all onto a 600 meg hard-disk for the disk maker to copy
from. It also discussed the pros and cons of the different standards
involved (ISO, Mac etc). It appeared to be a practicle how to for someone
in your position.
Hope this helps a bit.
I'm a CD Rom drive wanabe….3d,2d: oblects anims etc.
Laurie Carroll AKL NZ
Longdistance Autopilot
Laurie in the new issue of Computer Shopper they had a few CDROM
Writeables for sale for $4000-$6000