CompuServe Thread

#Motorola Unveils 68060

72 messages in this thread
#139657From: Steve AhlstromApr 18, 1994 3:19 PM
Motorola's High Performance Microprocessor Division, based in Austin, Texas, today introduced the 68060 microprocessor series. The first generation of the 68060 product line consists of the 68060, 68LC060 and 68EC060. The company notes that the family offers many of the same performance enhancements used by RISC microprocessors. Motorola says the line's key benefits includes hardware and software compatibility with 68040 microprocessors, cost- effective memory systems requirements and a power efficient architecture. Each of the CPUs incorporates 2.5 million transistors on a single piece of silicon. The chips are capable of simultaneously processing up to 250 million operations per second at 50MHz. The 68060 devices deliver an average performance level of 90 VAX MIPS at 50MHz. "The introduction of the 68060 affirms Motorola's commitment to the ongoing success of the 68000 family and our willingness and ability to field competitive product technology," says Cal Gooden, director of operations for the High Performance Microprocessor Division.
#139706From: Black Belt SystemsApr 19, 1994 12:23 AM
_250_ million ops a second at 50 mhz? What is this thing, MegaScalar, or are they talking each little data line switching as an op? <grin> Methinks there's a typo there, or else Motorolover has been sneaking this up on 'ol InSmell corporation… –Ben …via AutoPilot
#139718From: Steve AhlstromApr 19, 1994 1:11 AM
It appears the 250 million ops is correct … here is a much more detailed story from PRNewswire … 04/18 0736 MOTOROLA UNVEILS 32-BIT 68060 PRODUCT LINE OF … – Motorola's (NYSE: MOT) High Performance Microprocessor Division today formally introduced the 68060 product line of microprocessors. The first generation of the 68060 product line consists of the 68060, 68LC060 and 68EC060. The announcement of the 68060 marks a revolutionary high-point in the evolution of Motorola's 68000 Family. Leveraging many of the same performance enhancements used by RISC designs as well as providing innovative architecturial techniques, the 68060 harnesses new levels of performance for the 68000 Family. Key benefits such as hardware and software compatibility with 68040 designs, cost-effective memory systems requirements and an extremely power efficient architecture makes the 68060 an ideal processor choice for a broad range of networking/communication, telecommunication and control applications. With 68000 Family code compatibility, the 68060 provides a range of upgrade opportunities to virtually any existing 68040 application. Incorporating 2.5 million transistors on a single piece of silicon, the 68060 employs a deep pipeline, dual issue superscaler execution, a branch cache, a high performance floating point unit, 8 Kbytes each of on-chip instruction and data caches and on-chip demand paging memory management units (MMUs). It allows simultaneous execution of two integer instructions (or an integer and a float instruction) and one branch instruction during each clock period. All integer arithmetic or logical instructions are able to perform an embedded load/store operation making the 68060 capable of simultaneously processing up to 250 million operations per second at 50-MHz. The 68060 delivers an average performance level of 90 VAX MIPS at 50-MHz. "The introduction of the 68060 affirms Motorola's commitment to the ongoing success of the 68000 Family and our willingness and ability to field competitive product technology," said Cal Gooden, director of operations, Motorola High Performance MPU Division. "Outstanding performance for cost-constrained systems makes the 68060 microprocessor an ideal choice for embedded applications. We are pleased to have such customers as Force Computers, Heurikon, Motorola Computer Group and Wellfleet be the first supporting the 68060." Scalable Superscalar Architecture Employing high-level synthesizable modeling, coupled with strict partitioning of functionality, the 060 represents a platform for the proliferation of high-performance embedded computing. The first generation of the 060 product line are distinguished by the use of dual integer pipelines, dedicated branching unit, optional floating point processor and the rich instruction-set of the 68040 architecture. The 060 can be easily modified for higher performance implementations as well as provide substantially cost-reduced versions through the manipulation of the 060's high-level model. Pursuing a strategy of re-use and incremental improvement, Motorola expects to rapidly deploy the 060 technology to a wide range of price/performance points. The 68060 features a full internal Harvard architecture. The instruction and data caches are designed to support concurrent instruction fetch and operand read and operand write references on every clock cycle. Separate 8 Kbyte instruction and 8 Kbyte data caches can be frozen to prevent allocation over time-critical code or data. The independent nature of the caches allows instruction-stream fetches, data- stream fetches and external accesses to occur simultaneously with instruction execution. The operand data cache is four-way banked to permit simultaneous read and write access in each clock. A very high bandwidth internal memory system coupled with the compact nature of the 68000 Family code allows the 060 to achieve extremely high levels of performance even when operating from low-cost memory such as a 32-bit wide DRAM memory system. Instructions are fetched from the internal cache or external memory by a four stage instruction fetch pipeline. The 68060 variable-length instruction system is internally decoded into a fixed length representation and channeled into an instruction buffer. The instruction buffer acts as a FIFO which provides a decoupling mechanism between the instruction fetch unit and the operand execution units. Fixed Format Instructions are dispatched to dual four-stage pipelined RISC operand execution engines where they are then executed. In addition to the performance gains from this superscalar execution architecture, a brand cache plays a major role in achieving the high performance levels of the 68060. The branch cache has been implemented such that most branches are executed in zero cycles. Using a technique known as branch folding, the branch cache allows the instruction fetch pipeline to detect and change the instruction prefetch stream before the change of flow affects the instruction execution engines, minimizing the need for pipeline refill. The 68060 Product Line Features and Performance The first generation 68060 product line offers three versions. The 68060, 68LC060 and the 68EC060 differ in the feature offerings only. All three microprocessors offer a performance level of over 100 MIPS at 66-MHz. The 68060 comes fully equipped with both an FPU and MMU for high-end embedded control and desktop applications. For cost sensitive embedded control and desktop applications where designers need an MMU but don't want to pay for an FPU, the 68LC060 offers high-performance at a low cost. Specifically designed for low-cost embedded control applications the 68EC060 comes without both the FPU and MMU permitting designers to leverage 68060 performance while avoiding the cost of unnecessary features. Power Management In addition to substantial cost and performance benefits, the 060 also offers advantages in power consumption and power management. The 68060 automatically minimizes power dissipation by using a fully- static design, dynamic power management and low voltage operation. Each stage of the integer unit pipelines and the FPU pipeline draws power only when an instruction is executing and the cache arrays draw power only when an access is made. Explicitly the 68060 power consumption can be controlled from the operating system. For example, the 060 includes a low-power stop instruction (LPSTOP) that shuts down the active circuits in the processor, halting instruction execution and greatly reducing power consumption. Although the 68060 operates at a lower operating voltage, it interfaces to both 3V and 5V peripherals and logic. To assist in product design, a broad base of established development tools is available for the 68060 including: applications, assemblers, compilers, debuggers, languages, operating systems and real-time kernels. Note that the accompanying 68060 third party developer support news release explicitly outlines the tool offering. The 50-MHz 68060, 68LC060, and 68EC060 are currently sampling to alpha and beta sites. General samples will be available for both the 50- MHz and 66-MHz 68060 by 3Q94. Production for the 50-MHz 68060 is slated to start in late 3Q94. While production for the 66-MHz 68060 will begin in late 4Q94. The 50-MHz 68060 is priced at $263 in quantities of 10,000. The 68LC060 and the 68EC060 are priced at $169 and $150 in quantities of 10,000 respectively. Having 1993 worldwide sales of $5.7 billion, Motorola's Semiconductor Products Sector is the largest U.S.-based broad line supplier of semiconductors, with a balanced portfolio of more than 50,000 devices. Motorola is one of the world's leading providers of wireless communications, semiconductors, and advanced electronic systems and services. Major equipment businesses include cellular telephone, two-way radio, paging and data communications, personal communications, automotive, defense and space electronics and computers. Communication devices, computers and millions of consumer products are powered by Motorola semiconductors. Motorola's 1993 sales were $17 billion. -0- 4/18/94 /CONTACT: Kathleen Kenney or Samantha Rutherford of Cunningham Communication, 617-494-8202; or Tom Spohrer of Motorola, 512-891-2917/ (MOT) CO: Motorola, Inc. ST: Texas IN: CPR SU: PDT
#139744From: Steve TibbettApr 19, 1994 9:16 AM
Wow – that's quite a leap from the '040, no? Seems like a pretty good price as well. …Steve
#139769From: Steve AhlstromApr 19, 1994 1:52 PM
Steve, Sure is … I just hope there's an Amiga platform to put it in next fall. -sja
#139754From: Jim SakladApr 19, 1994 11:13 AM
Steve – I realize you are quoting PRNewswire, but then, you're a knowledgable sysop in addition…. I seem to recall when the 040 was at about this stage of release they were quoting $750 per chip (although I don't recall in what quantities). Have you any idea what full-capability 040 chips sell for NOW? . . . . JimDoc, on AutoPilot
#139768From: Steve AhlstromApr 19, 1994 1:42 PM
Jim, I have no idea … my interests lie in the box the cpu is housed in rather than just the cpu alone.
#139771From: Dale LarsonApr 19, 1994 2:22 PM
Though if you can buy a new 060 CPU card for your A4k, your interests might change. — Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing — INTERNET:dale@iam.com
#139774From: Steve AhlstromApr 19, 1994 3:09 PM
Dale, It might, but considering what 3rd party '040 cards for my 4000 cost, I doubt I'd be interested in an '060 card any time soon. Hey, I want to buy all sorts of things for my Amiga(s). Right now I'd like to get GVP's PhonePak, a BIG harddrive (the Barracuda would do nicely), somebody's 24 bit board, etc., but, I'm not going to do a thing until I know Amiga will survive the next few weeks.
#139778From: Dale LarsonApr 19, 1994 3:42 PM
Get the 'cuda now. If you leave the Amiga, you can still take your drive with you… — Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing — INTERNET:dale@iam.com
#139815From: Paul HigginbottomApr 19, 1994 10:23 PM
The chip sounds terrific. But… >General samples will be available for both the 50- MHz and 66-MHz 68060 by 3Q94. OK, that's samples only. >Production for the 50-MHz 68060 is slated to start in late 3Q94. With it being this far away, the ONLY vendor who might use this in a desktop computer is Commodore. PowerPC, Pentium, R4x00, Alpha etc. will have swamped the market and be in a fierce price war by then. I note that Motorola talks about embedded applications a couple of times, i.e., things like printers, cars, etc. This makes sense since many companies already have tons of money invested in 680×0 code, embedded real time kernels, etc., and this provides a terrific migration path. Even if Commodore doesn't use it I'm certain a third party will do an 060 accelerator card anyway, which will no doubt provide terrific performance. 3D folks are going to be ecstatic. Thanks for the post.
#139833From: Black Belt SystemsApr 19, 1994 11:27 PM
Us "2-d types" won't be ultimately depressed, either. :^) –Ben …via AutoPilot
#139893From: Paul IdolApr 20, 1994 1:39 PM
If I get a 4000 you can sure bet on that! Paul
#140023From: Jim Drew/UUIApr 21, 1994 6:39 AM
Samples of the first generation '060 were available last April, so there has been plenty enough to play with for building prototypes.
#140134From: Paul HigginbottomApr 22, 1994 12:13 AM
Why then, is it taking Motorola a year and a half to get a chip from first samples to production? That's crazy.
#140354From: Marlene Zenker/SYSOPApr 23, 1994 9:33 AM
Good question. Moto had problems getting the 88110 out the door too.
#140022From: Jim Drew/UUIApr 21, 1994 6:38 AM
Our multiprocessor board will retail for just under $1000 with a single CPU. Each additional CPU is ~$300. (0K of memory).
#140051From: Steve AhlstromApr 21, 1994 2:11 PM
Jim, I'll definitely keep that in mind. Thanks for the info. -sja
#140104From: Randal TaylorApr 21, 1994 9:04 PM
Jim, >Our multiprocessor board will retail for just under $1000 with a single >CPU. Each additional CPU is ~$300. (0K of memory). PMFJI. Can you provide some further information about the multiprocessor board you are developing? Do you have plans for a SCSI-II option? Thanks. Randy Traveling the $uper Information Highway
#140021From: Jim Drew/UUIApr 21, 1994 6:37 AM
Motorola quoted me the same price for the 060 in the 10,000 lot purchases. I have 10,000 units on order and is currently the only thing holding up our multiprocessor board for the Amiga, allowing up to four 68060 processors work together on each card. The card currently is being tested as a Zorro III board.
#140061From: Stephen BaileyApr 21, 1994 4:26 PM
>>The card currently is being tested as a Zorro III board<< PMFJI, but is Zorro II compatibility planned for the multipricessor board? Stephen Bailey Sawyer & Bailey Film & Video CIS # 72773,2451
#139758From: Paul IdolApr 19, 1994 11:31 AM
Wow. As always you are the god of information. $263 is a lot less than the cost of the Pentium. I mean, if the 66MHz version is $400, an equally clocked, roughly equally powerful Pentium is about double the price! The only thing is that by 4Q94 there'll be Pentiums running at AT LEAST 100MHz. 🙁 Paul
#139765From: Roy PahnkeApr 19, 1994 12:57 PM
Paul – Remember those were wholesales prices be quoted (well, that what I assumed when it mentioned quantities in 10K ranges), the retail or street price of these things will be much higher. Unless some one around can give us Pentium price in those quantities, then we are only comparing apples and organes. OnLine since 1982 Roy Pahnke – Casper WY
#139767From: Paul IdolApr 19, 1994 1:21 PM
Roy- I thought the Pentium was about $780 or something now in lots of 10k. Or is that retail or something? Paul
#139913From: Peter JonesApr 20, 1994 3:58 PM
Roy, I'm not comparing my 'organe' with an apple or anything else. <g> Pete Jones, flyin on AutoPilot from Brussels, Belgium
#139956From: Paul IdolApr 20, 1994 10:22 PM
ROFL! Paul
#139812From: Paul HigginbottomApr 19, 1994 10:17 PM
I just got a flyer in the mail from Zeos indicating they're shipping 90MHz Pentium systems NOW.
#139884From: Paul IdolApr 20, 1994 12:29 PM
Yah. I got similar news. 🙁 Those are probably comparable or clost to it anyway even to the Power 8100 Macs, and no doubt cheaper, though maybe worse designed. I tell you, the 060 looks like a nice chip, and cheap, but it's not here NOW, and even when it is it won't be clocked fast enough. There's just no reason for ANYONE to buy an Amiga right now, except for people with substantial Amiga operations who need another one posthaste. Paul
#140024From: Jim Drew/UUIApr 21, 1994 6:41 AM
Another thing discussed by Motorola is the fact that 100Mhz and 200Mhz versions of the '060 will be available with the 200Mhz version giving ~450 VAX MIPS.
#140046From: Paul IdolApr 21, 1994 12:41 PM
Yes but –when– will these incredibly uncharacteristically fast chips be shipping? THAT is the $64k question. Paul
#140168From: Harry ManolopoulosApr 22, 1994 7:54 AM
shouldn't that be the $68K question 🙂
#140065From: Steve SetzerApr 21, 1994 5:00 PM
>>Another thing discussed by Motorola is the fact that 100Mhz and 200Mhz >>versions of the '060 will be available with the 200Mhz version giving >>~450 VAX MIPS. Is there room on the chip for my frying pan? I could fry my supper while computing on an 060 running at 200 mhz! <BG> …Steve ====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
#140154From: Jim Drew/UUIApr 22, 1994 4:32 AM
The 060 develops no heat.. at least not enough to justify even a big clunky heat sink.
#140202From: Paul TylerApr 22, 1994 1:57 PM
Hi there Jim excuse me for jumping in, How does a chip like the 060 running at 100 or 200Mhz not generate stacks of heat, surely if they bolt a fan to the top of the 040, the 060 must run hotter (or?) STARFIRE cruising the stratosphere MOTOROLA 040 and AUTOPILOT ENGAGED!
#140208From: Dale LarsonApr 22, 1994 2:22 PM
3.3 — Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing — INTERNET:dale@iam.com
#140234From: Paul IdolApr 22, 1994 5:09 PM
Was the 040 5v only? And what about the Pentium – I hear that even the 3.3v version is royally cooking. Paul
#140556From: Paul TylerApr 24, 1994 5:02 PM
Sorry Dale your reply was lost in the system, all I got was "3.3" does this mean something??? STARFIRE cruising the stratosphere MOTOROLA 040 and AUTOPILOT ENGAGED!
#140115From: Andrew CarolApr 21, 1994 10:14 PM
> Another thing discussed by Motorola is the fact that 100Mhz and > 200Mhz versions of the '060 will be available with the 200Mhz > version giving ~450 VAX MIPS. 200Mhz over a 32 bit bus! That will be fun to watch! What a waste of Mhz. It will sit there and idle waiting for memory 50% of the time. 🙁 Interleaving is a poor solution when the CPU has to stall for _huge_ amounts of time. The instant you leave the small cache (8K instruction), your CPU will stall for a very long time. What will you do, 8 times interleave? Moto has talked very openly about high clocked PowerPC but EE Times questioned Motos intrest in a high clock '060. They will barely ship a 66Mhz this year. How long will it be until 100Mhz? The critical paths in the '060 are almost certainly fairly long. A glance at instruction timings could allow a guess. When Moto and IBM went from POWER to PowerPC they droped the ABS instruction because it would have required a simple multiplexer in the critical path which would have lengthened cycles by as little as a nano-second! It may not seem like much but, in the end, the CPU would have been 10% slower! The '060 did not have the luxury of redfining the instruction set and simply discarding what would slow the CPU down! I hope we see one, but considering how late the '060 was I would not hold my breath! Want to formalize my $1 bet that the fastest shipping PowerPC will always be twice as fast as the fastest shipping '060 averaging SPECint and SPECfloat from Moto's offical numbers together? <GRIN> —– Andrew
#140155From: Jim Drew/UUIApr 22, 1994 4:33 AM
Sure Andrew, I'll go the dollar… and then we'll make a side bet.. I am willing to bet $2 that our multiprocessor board will stomp on the fastest single PPC made. 🙂
#140189From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPApr 22, 1994 1:00 PM
>>Sure Andrew, I'll go the dollar… and then we'll make a side bet<< Gentlemen, Forum policy does not allow for wagering. Only flaming.
#140222From: Paul IdolApr 22, 1994 4:04 PM
Oh stop being such a stuffed shirt! <g> Paul
#140250From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPApr 22, 1994 8:27 PM
hehe
#140262From: Paul IdolApr 22, 1994 9:44 PM
The ability to laugh at yourself is an important sign of mental health. <g> Paul
#140223From: Paul IdolApr 22, 1994 4:04 PM
But how much more expensive will -your- solution be than the PPC solution?? Paul
#140372From: Stephen BaileyApr 23, 1994 12:20 PM
It sounds like the board will run about $2,000.00 fully loaded (i.e. with 4 '060s running in parallel). Add RAM to that price for the total. This is based on Jim's previous post. Stephen Bailey Sawyer & Bailey Film & Video CIS # 72773,2451
#140385From: Paul IdolApr 23, 1994 12:51 PM
Yah, I saw the one about $1k for starts. But $2k+ is a lot of money. Is it really going to cost that much to have, say a fast 620? Paul
#140288From: Andrew CarolApr 22, 1994 11:58 PM
> Sure Andrew, I'll go the dollar… and then we'll make a side bet. > I am willing to bet $2 that our multiprocessor board will stomp on > the fastest single PPC made. 🙂 Well duh! Of course FOUR '060 chips will be faster than a single PowerPC chip! But even you have to admit that the PowerPC, dollar for dollar, is a faster chip. As you would expect, IBM is also planning on multi PPC boards. In fact they are building a super-computer with hundreds of them. A 66Mhz 601 being only 20$ more expensive than the 50Mhz '060 yet 25% faster than the '060 is a pretty good deal! Moto puts 50Mhz '060 at 49 SPECint 66Mhz 601 at 63 SPECint (75 SPECint with external cache) The news from Moto today is that there will be 135Mhz or higher 604's announced this year, to ship 1Q95! That will push it to almost three times faster than the fastest 68060 expected to be shipping at that time. I really like the '060, I was overjoyed to go from Z80 to 68000. It was clean, straight forward, and simply elagant. The problem is that that Moto crippled the '060 with a measly 32 bit bus, and as usual with that family, seems to be having trouble at higher clocks (Note that 66Mhz will ship very late this year, just as 100Mhz 604's ship, opps!) Either way, I hope you do well with your board, and sell zillions of them! They are sure to bring a new level of speed to those users who, I'm sure, will finds lots of uses for them. 🙂 —— Andrew
#140952From: Jim Drew/UUIApr 26, 1994 4:56 PM
The biggest advantge with using the 060 over the PPC is code size and cost. If you look at the PPC/040 apps for the MAC, they have both the PPC native code as well as the standard 680×0 code… the result is programs being nearly 3 times the size they once were. This means that you have to buy more memory to run them in, and larger hard drives to store them. Also, you will not find every piece of software written for the MAC in PPC native code anytime soon, if ever. Yes, there will be PPC native versions of most of the big software, but the base is still much too large for developers to abandon the millions of 680×0 MACs already out there. PPC is fast in the floating point arena. It also has some great advantages for emulation of 80×86 processors. For this reason, will we be looking at PPC? Yes. We plan to compete against Insignia in the PC emulation market (MAC & PowerMAC). Our PC emulation right now is so much faster than SoftPC, it's silly. It is a given, to just move this code to the MAC and release it.
#141047From: Andrew CarolApr 26, 1994 11:49 PM
> The biggest advantge with using the 060 over the PPC is code size > and cost. If you look at the PPC/040 apps for the MAC, they have > both the PPC native code as well as the standard 680×0 code… > the result is programs being nearly 3 times the size they once > were. This means that you have to buy more memory to run them > in, and larger hard drives to store them. _NOT_ true. Many people ship their stuff that way because they don't know who will buy it. The installer software can install only 68K version or only PowerPC version or a combined version. The customer can decide what he wants installed on his hard drive! Only the correct version would ever load in RAM! Did you _really_ think a PPC machine would be stupid enough to load the 68K parts of an application into RAM when the native parts were there also? The "Code Fragment Manager" makes sure only the correct code portions get loaded into RAM! Sheesh! <grin> If the user decides to install the combined version onto disk it will be about 30% to 50% larger than a pure 68K version. There are also free utilities to strip out the part you don't want on the disk. Pure PPC code is about 30% larger than pure 68K code, but runs 3-10 times faster depending on what you are doing. Memory is cheaper than an accelerator which could run my code that fast. Since a PowerPC chip is _cheaper_ for a specific power level than a 68060 is, I can put the money into more memory and end up lots faster! This saves software houses lots of money because they need only a single distribution and the dual compiler can compile a single source into 68K and PPC at the same time! This makes it very easy on the developer. Consider a "typical" application 1) 68K code 90K 2) PPC code 120K 3) Shared data 150K (strings, constants, data, window resources, etc) The data and resources of my programs are often much bigger than the actual code! The data being shared is the key! Even though a different code set might be carried, the typical data area is very large and makes the extra code not a big deal. Either way, program size does _NOT_ triple! I have several of these combined applications and they range from 30% to 50% larger. Remember they all share the same data area and RISC code does not bloat nearly as you might think. In fact many programs stay the same size when moved to RISC because of the extra registers and more flexible triple operand instructions. This combining of code is a _great_ way to make the transition as painless as possible. I can just move my hardrive from machine to machine and know it will work correctly. I don't have to care what CPU is in it! If the Amiga ever moves to RISC, then I bet they adopt the same solution. You have to make it easy on the customer to not have to care what's under the hood while transitioning to the RISC world. > Also, you will not find every piece of software written for the MAC > in PPC native code anytime soon, if ever. Yes, there will be PPC > native versions of most of the big software, but the base is still > much too large for developers to abandon the millions of 680×0 MACs > already out there. Apple intends to stop selling 68K Macs within two years. In fact, they expect to sell more PPC machines next year than 68K machines. That means that you stick with just 68K only if you want to live in the past and not keep up with a new market eager to buy new software. Building dual core applications is painless and will probably begin to fade in three years as most people make the switch. Those aiming at the older market may stick with that format for several more years. What you advocate is _exactly_ what has made the 80×86 such a PIG! They have to worry about carring a huge amount of CISC baggage. Apple has made the transition fairly easy with the payoff of screaming fast computers here and now. > PPC is fast in the floating point arena. Wow! You finally admit it! <GRIN> Weeks ago you told me that 68060 blew PowerPC out of the water for floating point! What caused this change of heart? <GRIN> > It also has some great >advantages for emulation of 80×86 processors. > For this reason, will we be looking at PPC? Yes. We plan to compete > against Insignia in the PC emulation market (MAC & PowerMAC). Our PC > emulation right now is so much faster than SoftPC, it's silly. It is > a given, to just move this code to the MAC and release it. Yes, the bi-endian load/store and the _killer_ bit masking instructions make PowerPC a real winner for that type thing! But be very careful. You may be able to emulate an 80×86 faster than they can, but they have one ace you don't. They have full source code rights to Windows 3/4.x. They have recompiled Windows to PPC native. Since user code spends much time in Windows, it will run lots of portions native and not need to emulate. If you just emulate 80×86 and ran shrinkwraped 80×86 install of Windows you will _really_ crawl. Do you have the rights to Microsoft source code like Insignia? As Microsoft makes changes they simply have to recompile and they are caught up. —— Andrew
#139761From: Black Belt SystemsApr 19, 1994 12:14 PM
Thanks for posting the details… looks interesting. Disapointing that this is an "announcement of an announcement" – IE, you can't get these now, 3q94 is a loooong way away. Foo. –Ben …via AutoPilot
#139848From: Andrew CarolApr 20, 1994 2:00 AM
> It appears the 250 million ops is correct … here is a much more > detailed story from PRNewswire … It is _very_ important to note that this is burst speed, not sustained throughput. Also, MIPS mean _nothing_! Who cares how many instructions a second it can do? i.e. What does an instruction "do"? The SPECmark numbers would be more useful to compare with other systems. They need to release typical SPECint and SPECfloat. From the numbers I've seen, it is near or slightly ahead of the Pentium at similar clocks. It will certainly help current code run faster, but Moto has also been very quiet on what their plans are for CPUs beyond the '060. What happens in two years? Is there a future? Will Moto develop a follow on to the '060? They, of course, have spoken about variations of the '060, but not a single word about an '070 or '080. In the past they have _always_ talked about the next chip in the series. The "EE Times" ran a front page story about the '060 last week and they felt that Moto was aiming this chip at the embeded market. They noted that they introduced this chip at an embeded devices conference rather than a CPU conference. They also claim that Moto does not expect these to be in wide spread desktop use. They plan on PowerPC chips for that market Moto made the announcment yesterday of the 604 at 100Mhz which will ship in volume near the same time as the '060 and be _lots_ faster than any '060 shipping this year. (By a factor of almost two). As clocks go up the thing which will kill the '060 is the 32 bit data path to memory! This makes it pin compatible with the '040, but it will begin to starve for memory! Almost every other chip has at _least_ 64 bits to RAM. PowerPC, Pentium, Alpha, etc, all can move twice as much data per cycle as an '060 and they all have higher clocks to boot. What will '060 buiders do? Put $1000 40ns SIMMS in their machine? That'll win market share! The general feeling in "EE Times" and the "Microprocessor Report" is that '060, Pentium, and PowerPC601 are all about the same speed at the same clock. The problem is that Moto will ship a 66Mhz '060 late this year, just as P54C and 601 are getting to 100Mhz and _beyond_. The 604 being 50% faster at the same clock and _starting_ at 100Mhz won't help. (160 SPECint and 165 SPECfloat at 100Mhz!) Moto needs to clairify what they want with '060. Is it a midlevel CPU or a high end embeded controller? Either way, what will come next? It has taken _forever_ between the '040 and '060, will people have to wait that long for the next CPU? —- Andrew
#139905From: matthew straneyApr 20, 1994 1:58 PM
andrew, Again you go off about Specnumbers, you know ALL benchmarks are useless don't you! Get real the only thing that matters is how productive a machine is PERIOD My old 3000-040 @ 25mhz dusts my friends 486 dx2 66 running windoze, so what your saying is that my 3000 isn't as productive as his 486 because its spec numbers are lower. NOT. I can get a newsletter out faster than him, I can update my dbase faster than him, whatever. You see if the chip is in a machine with an OS that sucks and an interface that sucks it's still not productive. PPC is a good thing, but Mac already has yinged it, unless you think Macdos is the be all end all, then its great. We shall have to wait and see what IBM$ does but they don't have the greatest track record for useful well thought-out implementations. I'm not saying people at IBM aren't smart they are, but like C= things often change from lab to line. Matt Straney, 3 hours late, without your luggage from Grand Ledge — on AutoPilot ——–>
#139953From: Andrew CarolApr 20, 1994 9:33 PM
> Get real the only thing that matters is how productive a > machine is PERIOD. You are 100% percent correct. However you reach a point where a great OS and chipset just can't make up for a poor CPU. In the end, it will take longer to reflow that 100 page document, or recalculate your huge spreadsheet. If your machine is fast enough for you then you should be content and keep plugging! 🙂 To down side is that a very large part of the market needs the raw horse power and they will not buy a machine they feel can't crunch the numbers. No power = less speed less speed = less sales less sales = company in negative value, tottering on edge. Moral to the fairy tale? Even if _you_ don't need the raw power, someone else might. Some machine in the line should offer it to compete with the other unwashed machines out there. The '060 is a holding action. It will give a needed shot in the arm to the Amiga. But within 6-12 months the native software and new OS's will be out there for the RISC competition. Then the 604 will hit the streets. Then the 620 will hit the streets, etc, etc. Will there be an '080? The RISC curve is _just_ starting. The PowerPC will have shipped 3 generations (601, 603, and 604) between '040 and '060. I _love_ the 68K instruction set, and have done extensive low level tinkering in it. It is way cooler than the 80×86 line, but it, like the 80×86, isn't up to tomorrows tasks. It's sad, but in ten years, the history books will probably remember the '060 as a great laser printer engine. Oh well. —– Andrew
#139971From: Harry ManolopoulosApr 20, 1994 10:55 PM
Not to mention that c= never got above 25mhz in the amigas.
#139957From: Jeff SchweigerApr 20, 1994 10:27 PM
Matt – Actually, I have to agree with Andrew on this one. I do not agree that "ALL benchmarks are useless". Benchmarks have their place. If they didn't, they wouldn't be in use. In this specific case, I was surprised that the Motorola press release referenced VAX MIPS, but not the Spec suite of benchmarks, which is generally what is used these days for processor comparisons. Jeff Schweiger
#140008From: Andrew CarolApr 21, 1994 1:49 AM
> In this specific case, I was surprised > that the Motorola press release referenced VAX MIPS, but not the > Spec suite of benchmarks, which is generally what is used these > days for processor comparisons. Moto is normally very good about that kind of thing. I think they realize it's not up to the other CPU's out there. It's great against a 66Mhz Pentium but won't touch a 100Mhz P54C or an 80Mhz or 100Mhz 601. PowerPC604? They know it's not even in the same league! Did you also notice that Intel pushes MIPS in their press releases? I suspect that they both know that those numbers impress people. Intel at least is really feeling the heat from PowerPC. The 620 should come in at between 200 and 250 SPECint, Intel claims the P6 will be about 200 MIPS. At first glance the numbers seem similar (I had to do a double take!). Yet MIPS <> SPECint. "Microprocessor Report" claims P6 will be about 150 SPECint. That is why the CISC people use MIPS and VUPs! They know the RISC chips will dominate this decade, until something new comes along. MPP? Moto knows their only chance to compete with Pentium is the potential power offered by PowerPC. They see a once in a lifetime chance to change the world. I'm glad to see Intel in this position. I hope, at last, a _clean_ CPU design might be dominate. I really hated how the 68K was technicly better than an 80×86, yet did not sell well. —– Andrew
#140025From: Jim Drew/UUIApr 21, 1994 6:44 AM
Motorola has already publically stated that there will be an '070 and '080 processor made, and are working on the spec sheet for the '070 right now. I will get you some SPECints for you. Right now, another 3rd party Amiga developer just got their first 060 working and using 70ns memory, it is 822% faster than an equiv 040 setup. I think that is a bit slow.. but… 🙂
#140052From: Bob RyanApr 21, 1994 2:12 PM
50MHz 060 SPECInt92 is 49. Source: Motorola.
#140116From: Andrew CarolApr 21, 1994 10:14 PM
> 50MHz 060 SPECInt92 is 49. Source: Motorola. By that number a PowerPC chip is faster at the same clock (slightly) and the 604 is more than 50% faster at the same clock! 🙂 I belive that on any one day we will see the fastest shipping PowerPC chip at about twice the speed of the fastest shipping '060, even though the prices will be similar. A 50Mhz 601 from IBM and 50Mhz '060 from Moto are within $20 of each other. The 100Mhz 601 has a die size of only 70sq mm! How big is the '060? Want to bet which is larger? Die size is one of the largest cost factors. Moto knows which CPU has the potential to be the fastest, cheapest, and smallest. If there is any doubt, just watch the Moto annoucments over the next 12 months! Any word from Moto on SPECfloat for '060? ——- Andrew
#140156From: Jim Drew/UUIApr 22, 1994 4:35 AM
Andrew, the 060 is same package size as the 040, but a different pinout. There is a company right now building an adapter socket so that 060s can be dropped into standard 040 accelerator boards.
#140050From: Bob RyanApr 21, 1994 2:01 PM
In talking with Moto, they indicate that the 060 is intended both for the embedded market and as a desktop upgrade. The 32-bit data path was a deliberate decision that makes sense both for embedded applications and as an 040 upgrade. Embedded implementations have to be as cheap as possible, while the need to be as compatible as possible with the 040 kept Moto from going to 64 bits. By the way, the 060 is not pin compatible with the 040, though Moto may sell a simple adapter that handles the differences. –Bob
#140330From: E.R. BujtasApr 23, 1994 6:40 AM
This is Endre: My understanding is that the 68060 is the end of the line for the 68K family, and mainly targeted for embedded controllers.
#139751From: MICHAEL SMITHApr 19, 1994 10:41 AM
This sounds great! I hope some smart Amiga Developer creates a board for the 2/3/4000 Amigas that'll sell for $995- many could be sold- and if miracles DO happen, would make the new A5000 VERY attractive.
#139780From: Mark D. ManesApr 19, 1994 3:46 PM
I believe in another thread — Jim Drew of Utilities Unlimited said they were working on an 060 board. I don't think that equates to an 'annoucement' of a product though. 🙂 -mark= Otto Pilot Engaged..
#139841From: Charles HillApr 20, 1994 12:31 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong….but with the 68060 being pin, bus and program code compatable with the 68040, what's wrong with getting a Warp Engine now (with a socketed crystal and socketed 68040) and swapping them out for a 50-MHz or 66-MHz crystal & 68060 later? According to everything I read, I can't see why not. -Chas
#139925From: Mark D. ManesApr 20, 1994 6:34 PM
Chas, I learned long ago never to answer hardware questions. 😉 I still think there is just blue smoke that is somehow stuck inside the chips that if ever let out the computer stops working. So, as to your plan on chip replacement for the 060 — It sounds good to me! -mark= Otto Pilot Engaged..
#140028From: Jim Drew/UUIApr 21, 1994 6:57 AM
The '060 is not pin-for-pin or logic interface compatible with the '040…but, and adapter socket can easily be constructed.
#140037From: Mark D. ManesApr 21, 1994 10:47 AM
Jim, I checked into my vast hardware experience and I find that you are right! (hehehehe) The real question is: Is the blue smoke compatible? -mark= Otto Pilot Engaged..
#140047From: Paul IdolApr 21, 1994 12:41 PM
Michael- >The real question is: Is the blue smoke compatible?< ROFL! I think I'll let -you- suck some to find out! <BG> Paul
#140058From: Mark D. ManesApr 21, 1994 4:15 PM
Hey, I never inhaled! -mark= Otto Pilot Engaged..
#140076From: Paul IdolApr 21, 1994 6:48 PM
Yay right, that's what they all say. <g> Paul
#140203From: Paul TylerApr 22, 1994 1:57 PM
All depends on what shade of smoke with 256,000 to choose from it could be tricky telling the difference. ;:^) STARFIRE cruising the stratosphere MOTOROLA 040 and AUTOPILOT ENGAGED!