#Conjunction Injuction?
69 messages in this thread
What is your function? (my world for longer subject headers)
I have been sitting on a rumor for a while now, but now I have seen it in
print from Creative Equipment so I guess I should share it.
It seems that Commodore Business Machines (US Division) has an injunction
against them. This injunction prevents Commodore from shipping Amiga
computers (any model) to any distributor in the United States.
The only thing that I have heard about the subject of the injunction is
that someone or company claims to have rights to part of the GUI the Amiga
is using.
I have no details as to who, or what company, or the real reason as to why
this took place and why it takes place now in this critical time.
This injunction does not prohibit sales of existing inventories of Amiga
computers from distributors to dealers or end-users. It only prevents
Commodore from shipping new machines to distributors.
Source: Creative Equipment Dealer Newsletter
—
Remember, you heard it here first. 🙂
I am working on two upcoming conferences. One will be with DKB and the
other is yet to be announced. These COs are on tempoary hold while I pack
up my entire world and move to Northern Virginia to join the SCALA team.
I am really looking forward to this move (except the box moving part) and
will back online as soon as possible.
I will leave Sunday.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
"This injunction prevents Commodore from shipping Amiga
computers (any model) to any distributor in the United States.
The only thing that I have heard about the subject of the injunction is
that someone or company claims to have rights to part of the GUI the Amiga
is using."
Mark:
That kind of development would definitely require Commodore to issue a news
release. Have you checked any of the news wires for confirmation?
Jerry
Jerry,
So far I have not been able to find this written in an official source,
however, it comes from both of our major distributors. One of them being
Creative Equipment the biggest Amiga distributor (and person in the know)
in the Amiga marketplace.
I agree with you though, it should be confirmable.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
"I agree with you though, it should be confirmable."
If it's an action in open court, yep.
One scenario that suggested itself to me, though, is a misinterpretation of
something common in corporate workouts. Someone may have gotten a form of lien
against the inventory or the inventory itself is passing through a third-party
as part of a workout agreement.
Such things can be structured to avoid a public announcement because they are
neutral in their effect on the corporation.
The lack of public news from Commodore these past several weeks is surprising
– and not at all encouraging. One would think that a corporation in such
serious financial would be able to report something positive of "significant"
financial impact, no matter how small, in this period of time.
By the same token, the absence of any negative news from Commodore is also
encouraging.
Jerry
Jerry,
The injuction as far as I understand is against Commodore US (Commodore
Business Machines) and not against Commodore International. Commodore
Canada has plenty of Amigas. Makes me wonder if Commodore International
could ship machines directly to the distributor and get around the
injuction this way.
I think that Denny has it right on the 'cursor' patent thing. That is
probably what it is as it lines up with a rumor I heard similiar.
Hey, didn't you know that the following was true:
Rumor + Rumor = Truth? (grin)
Anyway, I too am surprised that there hasn't been any news on Commodore
this week–I expected some.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
I dunno, Mark. If Commodore Business Machines is a wholly owned subsidiary of
Commodore International and some kind of suit could have a significant impact,
I think they'd have to report it.
Likewise, if whoever owns this patent sued, I would think they would
publicize the case as well.
Stuff just doesn't hang right on this one.
Jerry
It looks like the front of this thread got cut off. But if it is what it
sound like, I was told by a lawyer of a company whose sole income was
suing people for a blinking block cursor on a patent they held. Their
object was to never go to court, but set the "settlement" at a low enough
threshold to be paid to effectivly go away. They never picked on big guys
who would fight back. I can't imagine them picking on CBM, cause the
pockets, far from being deep, are empty. It wouldn't be worth the effort.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne,
If my memory is correct (and it may not be)…it's Texas Instruments
that holds the patent on the XOR cursor. Certainly not a small company who's
only income is the patenet.
Don
Somebody posted on GEnie that TeleVideo holds the XOR patent.
What a patently absurd idea. 😉
ML
> Their object was to never go to court, but set the "settlement"
> at a low enough threshold to be paid to effectivly go away.
> They never picked on big guys who would fight back. I can't
> imagine them picking on CBM, cause the
> pockets, far from being deep, are empty. It wouldn't be worth
> the effort.
If you don't protect your trademarks, copyrights, or patents, you lose them!
They _do_ have to pick on everyone. They just pick a price low enough to not
be worth fighting.
If they let C= "get away" with not paying, then IBM could claim that they had
abandoned the patent, and would refuse to pay.
They probably know they will not get any money from C=, it's enough that they
go though the motions to keep everything on the up & up.
If C= finds a "clever" way to get machines into the US via Canada then they
_must_ sue to stop the imports. Imports are covered by patent law, just like
domestic sales. They can ask the US to enforce their patent at the border.
—— Andrew
"If they let C= "get away" with not paying, then IBM could claim that they had
abandoned the patent, and would refuse to pay."
Not true, Andrew.
Assuming this story is true, the patentholder could easily decide not to
collect delinquent royalties without endangering their patent rights in any
way, shape or manner.
All they would have to do is write it off as uncollectible. That's a business
decision has nothing to do with their basic patent rights.
Any reasonably well drawn license agreement would terminate automatically for
non-payment.
Only if a licensee continued to use the licensed, but unpaid for technology,
would the licensor have to sue and even then it would be for breach of
contract, not to protect the rights under patent.
The burden of proof to prove abandonment of a trademark, copyright or patent
is very substantial. In one trademark case I read, the trademark hadn't been
used in 15 years, but the registration was still valid and its owner collected
a multi-million dollar judgement against an infringer.
Patents afford far greater protection than trademark registrations. Just
failing to sue someone for money owed under a license is not going to
invalidate or sustain a charge of abandonment of a patent. I'm not even sure a
patent can be abandoned, since as far as I know there is no requirement that a
patented item even be sold in commerce.
Jerry
" Their object was to never go to court, but set the "settlement" at a low
enough threshold to be paid to effectivly go away. They never picked on big
guys who would fight back."
Sounds reasonable to me. There are a few of these fast-buck artists around
with arguable patents who demand to be paid off. Litigation of this kind is
incredibly expensive so I agree that paying a penny or something is cheaper.
Jerry
Mark,
>>Hey, didn't you know that the following was true:<<
>>Rumor + Rumor = Truth? (grin)<<
Yeah and two wrongs don't make a right but two wrights made an airplane.;)
//
Gary Vander Mei on Auto-Pilot \X/
Oh god, that one really shouldn't have seen the light of day! <g>
Paul
Wright!
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Maybe they're out of paper? <g,r,&d)
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
…Is it significant that my spell checker doesn't know "Intel"?
That is terrible, if true!
On more cheerful fronts, congrats on your new job at Scala! I hope things
go well – I'm sure =they're= happy to have you!
(What is this, all exclamation points day?)
Paul
Thanks Paul,
SCALA is a neat company.. I have enjoyed working with both John Chang and
Mike Weaver for some time. I found SCALA to be both supportive in sales
as well as technical support.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Hey! Congrats on the Scala thing!
-larry
That would somewhat explain the stock situation too.
I'm really getting tired of the way everybody sues everyone else these
days! I wonder who else wants to kill the Amiga.
Cangrats on joing the SCALA team!
Bob Comer — Cruising the nets on Autopilot!
Cheyenne, Wyoming U.S.A.
Thanks Bob!
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Mark…
Moving to N. VA!! A big welcome from someone living in Springfield. It will
be b
good to have you as a neighbor. Speaking as one who just recently (two years
ago) moved here I find it a very nice place to live. If you need a
recommendation for a realtor or anything else don't hesitate to ask.
..Carl
I may well need to take you up on that offer! 🙂
I used to live in Northern Virginia when I was kid… I liked it fine. I
really like some of the wonderful places up there — like Prince William
Forrest Park, etc.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Mark…
Please do. Of course you know we have a fairly active users group here also
(NCAUG). It meets once a month (second Saturday) at Virginia Power
Headquarters here in Springfield.
..Carl
>" … someone or company claims to have rights to part of the GUI the
Amiga is using."
Gee, and it only took them 9 years to figure it out.
Guess that means the Amiga was actually becoming popular, huh?
8^)
Harry
Mark,
The Injunction sure is a bummer, if it holds true. I guess you wouldn't be
putting it out if you didn't think so. Bummer.
Congrats on the SCALA thing!!!! (except the boxes part, of course)
Robb
Thank ye Robb.
It does appear that it is true, or I doubt that Creative Equipment (the
distributor not the mail order company Creative Computers) would put the
information out.
I heard this rumor several weeks ago and thought it to far fetched to be
true.
I wonder if there is someplace on CIS that we can use to find out as I
would think an injunction would be a matter of public record.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
"I wonder if there is someplace on CIS that we can use to find out as I would
think an injunction would be a matter of public record."
I don't know about any of the financial news services, but I checked NewsGrid
last night and the only references to Commodore Business was that two former
executives have landed pretty nice jobs elsewhere.
Jerry
Jerry,
I would suspect that this sort of action might be undertaken in federal court.
If so it could be in any federal district in the country. A search would have
to be made in every district for the case. This could be an expensive and time
consuming project. If it was undertaken in a state court the problem could be
even greater but it would probably be in the state that Commodore is
registered.. i.e., Pennsylvania, I would assume. If anyone is in the West
Chester area and wants to explore the records in Chester County they just might
find something.
I sure hope that the truth comes out soon. I am rather leary at the moment of
spending any more significant amounts in my Amiga systems.
Bill
All true, Bill. But if it were of significant financial impact – and a
decision, even a filing of this nature – would definitely be significant and
Commodore would be obliged to release information on it to the financial
community and the press.
I've seen absolutely nothing on NewsGrid or anywhere else.
Even if it were the normal mechanics of being broke (i.e., a creditor with a
valid lien siezes all their inventory), the numbers would probably still be
significant enough to warrant some kind of press release from Commodore.
Commodore's silence on everything bothers me. Normally a company in that kind
of situation will send out a press release just to say they're alive or talking
with some party or other.
Commodore remains absolutely silent.
No news is not necessarily good news.
Jerry
Jerry,
Agreed on both points. Perhaps part of the "charm" of owning an Amiga is the
mystery of it all. This sort of thing has gone on for so long…
Bill
"Perhaps part of the "charm" of owning an Amiga is the mystery of it all."
Hmmmmmm … now that's certainly one way of looking at it. <G>
Jerry
What is this Newsgrid? I have been checking stocks on C= for the past few weeks
and have not gotten much news. When looking at the quote last week or so it
suggested that I check more news in ENS (at an extra charge) I did to find
absolutely nothing of worth.
Can you tell me how to use NewsGrid?
Zeddock
Just type GO NEWSGRID at any forum prompt.
GO NEWSGRID … easy
-sja
Mark,
I also heard the same thing…except that the injunction is from a lawsuit
filed by Prudential and has nothing to do with the GUI. CBM owes them many
millions (in default since last June) and they are taking steps.
Three of four major distributors are out of all Amigas & monitors — Micropace
had 3 A4000s left today, CEI had 10 and Microsphere was in single digits. All
told me that they didn't expect any soon. I didn't talk to Merisel.
It seems that CBM US unloaded all their stores at the end of March when the
injunection took place. Many of the items were sold to Canadian distributors
and delae dealers to raise cash. Canada has plenty of units.
On a lighter note: Computer Reseller news reported that Sage Technologies,
Inc.has just completed the acquisition of CBM, Inc. and expects first quarter
sales to be $110 – $115 million and decond quarter to be $200 million.
-Chas
>I also heard the same thing…except that the injunction is from a
>lawsuit filed by Prudential and has nothing to do with the GUI. CBM owes
>them many millions (in default since last June) and they are taking
>steps.
Wow, what a smart move. Someone owes you money, and you shut down their
business. That makes just as much sense as debtor's prison. 🙁
-Karl Speaking from the Rubble.
I makes plenty of sense if they owe you money for over a year and don't pay.
Collect the collatoral.
-Chas
It only makes sense against a company that HAS collateral. CBM's only
collateral is the ongoing business, and the technology. I expect there is
very little hard assets in the US.
-Karl Speaking from the Rubble.
Charles,
CBM, Inc. is not related to Commodore.
-sja
The injunction I heard about was from a company called Cadtrax(sp??) which
has a patent on the way the mouse position is tracked. Apparently
virtually every mouse-using computer has licensed this, and CBM has been
dutifully paying for the rights to this, as long as they could. Now
Cadtrax is just another creditor waiting for $$$, but by virtue of the
patent, they apparently have better leverage than others. Of course
stopping the machine sales in the US hardly seems like the best way to
recoup the money they are owed.
"Now Cadtrax is just another creditor waiting for $$$, but by virtue of the
patent, they apparently have better leverage than others."
It would have to be one heck of an agreement to give a licensor of a patent a
better position than a secured creditor like a bank or insurance company.
In all the licensing stuff I've seen, failure to pay would be exactly that:
failure to pay, a breach of contract. It would be almost unheard of to for a
court to allow injunctive relief for a money matter.
Finally, as I mentioned to Mark, it strikes me as really strange that there
has been no news release of any kind from Commodore or any one else in regard
to this. My own feeling is that it's just an inaccurate rumor. But one never
knows, right?
Jerry
IF it is an inaccurate rumor, you can blame Medhi Ali. He is the one
passing it around to the distributors.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
"IF it is an inaccurate rumor, you can blame Medhi Ali. He is the one passing
it around to the distributors."
Is this a real fact, Mark, or just hearsay? Mr. Ali would be in a large,
large pot of trouble with shareholders and the SEC if the action had a
significant impact on Commodore's financial state and he was telling some
people and not others.
Of course, if it was some stray action that involved ten machines or
something, that wouldn't be the case.
Jerry
It is a real fact as far as I know.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
"It is a real fact as far as I know."
I'm not disputing you, Mark, but it sounds pretty weird to me.
Jerry
Arnie,
IF that were the case…it's a very smart move on their part. First in
order to protect their patent rights…they must take action against anyone
known to be violating the patent. Failure to pay licensing fees is a violation
and the only way to protect is to either pay up…or stop selling the
'offending' equipment.
It's also a heck of a lever to get their money…pay up, or go out of
business. Cadtrax (if that's who it is) probably doesn't care so much if they
get paid or not…when compared to whether they let someone use their
"property" for free or not.
Losing royalties from one small company is nothing compared to losing
all rights to royalties from all companies.
Don
Mark,
As I heard it, the injunction is because Commodore hasn't payed up on the
"XOR cursor" patent.
(Ridiculous patent, sigh.)
Yeah, that's the one!
"As I heard it, the injunction is because Commodore hasn't payed up on the
"XOR cursor" patent."
Isn't a XOR cursor a "Blinking" cursor? And if so, where does the Amiga
use a blinking cursor? I haven't seen it in the Shell, and most programs
that I have never use a blinking cursor. So I wonder why CBM would have to
pay licensing fee's for the type of cursor they never use?
// John (Speeding on the Information Superhighway)
\X/ Mercury@ins.infonet.net
injunction may be creditors insisting on liquidation of CBM/USA division.
John,
NO, the XOR cursor is the method of drawing the cursor…you XOR the
background to turn off pixels that are on, and turn on pixels that are off
(reverse video it). It is must useful with a block cursor that sits ontop of
other text.
Not knowing what the patent states…I can only presume it applys to
any cursor type device (which may or may not include a mouse cursor) that is
drawn onscreen via an XOR of the screen area.
And Commodore certainly uses those.
Don
"NO, the XOR cursor is the method of drawing the cursor…you XOR the
background to turn off pixels that are on, and turn on pixels that are off
(reverse video it). It is must useful with a block cursor that sits ontop
of other text."
OK, I get it. Like for a backspace that still shows the character under
the cursor. And somebody was actually granted a patent for this? Just goes
to show how lame our patent laws are.
// John (Speeding on the Information Superhighway)
\X/ Mercury@ins.infonet.net
Don,
the 'mouse cursor' is done by a sprite. handled in hardware, doesn't
XOR at all.
The XOR patent is not limited to software. The Amiga's blitter could be argued
to contain XOR technology.
But then again, you could just claim it ANDs and ORs the data.. hehe
Jim,
I've seen the patent, what it covers shouldn't cover anything the Amiga
does.
> I've seen the patent, what it covers shouldn't cover anything the
> Amiga does.
People on the Internet claim the text cursor is using an XOR.
It also seems C= had been paying for the use of the patent until their recent
money troubles. I doubt they would pay if they did not use it at all.
—— Andrew
I thought I heard the injuction involves the C64.
Richard -> AutoPilot on the A1000
> I've seen the patent, what it covers shouldn't cover anything the
> Amiga does.
People on the Internet claim the text cursor is using an XOR.
It also seems C= had been paying for the use of the patent until their recent
money troubles. I doubt they would pay if they did not use it at all.
—— Andrew
> The XOR patent is not limited to software. The Amiga's blitter
> could be argued to contain XOR technology.
> But then again, you could just claim it ANDs and ORs the data.. hehe
I'm not using a "4", I'm using a "2 + 2"! <grin>
—– Andrew
Vic,
Right…on the Amiga it is a hardware sprite
John,
The Commodore 64 used an XOR cursor. It is my understanding that is the
machine that the injunction names. Still I have yet to see official
documentation as to this.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Mark,
If there were any leagl actkion taken against a public corporation
wouldn't the newswires have the information? Something doesn't sound right
here… but who knows…
>>…and move to Northern Virginia to join the SCALA team.<<
Congratulations! You're joining one heck of a team! Good luck with the
move… when will you be resituated?
I am hoping to be back online in the next 10-15 days or so.
It may well be about 30 days.
Sigh… I am going to miss all of the fun here.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Isn't there any good Commodore news these days?
Congratulations on the job at Scala. Have fun moving. 🙂
Richard -> AutoPilot on the A1000
Thank ye Richard.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Hey, Mark;
Have a good trip and I hope to talk to you soon about SCALA.
Zeddock