#24 bit animation
21 messages in this thread
Has anybody out there seen a side by side comparison of a finished project
(animation) done in DCTV as compared to Toaster with a single frame
controller and related hardware?
I realize that there is a huge difference, but I would like to see it
quantified somehow. For example "if Lightwave is the master tape then DCTV
would compare as a fourth generation dupe".
I have a Toaster but no frame controller or BRS 811 type VTR. Without
the top end hardware is Lightwave to ADPro to DCTV the only choice? Is
there something in between that might work for getting close to real 24
bit. If there was a cheaper method for roughing out the work I could then
rent the equipment to lay down 500 or so frames to tape when I have the
rendered frames all ready to go.
Any thoughts or comments?
Paul
–pt–not seattle– 😉
Paul, the output quality of your finished product from DCTV would highly
depend on image complexity and color selection in your original Lightwave
frames. For example, a company logo type of object, extruded with a simple
"gold" type shiny surface renderred with antialiasing and shadows will look
just about the same becuase the color reduction during the transformation
won't effect the overall range of the pallete in your final NTSC output to
videotape. On the other hand, if you are trying to get a "photorealistic"
look from something that has texture mapping, such as marble surfaces from
a brush, the antialiasing used in Lightwave will probably be all but lost
by the time you get to DCTV. One issue that you need to look into is the
playback frame rate of DCTV, it will range from about 10-20 frames per
second depending on image complexity, even with a simple animation, the
results may not be as smooth as you would like since normal single frame
animations are done at 30 frames per second. The cure for this is to use
relatively quick motion in your animation, thus making the "chugging"
effect hardly noticeable. Good luck.
Frank
OOPS. I forgot about the limited frame rate. I think if you keep the delta
changes small things get better. Does DCTV flip frames as if they were
Hi-Res pics? How deep, bit wise?
Thanks,
Paul
–pt–not seattle– 😉
Paul, I have a couple of DCTV pics on my HD, and their size appears as
hires, 4bitplane. Oscan is allowed (one of mine shows as 736×482 x
4bitplane, for instance.
I believe that it has a mode that allows only 3bitplane, which should help
real time animation somewhat. But it's always a hires pic to the amiga.
–jp–seattle–
Paul,
John is correct you can use 3 bitplane images with DCTV. I use it all
the time since on my 2500 I can easily crank out 30 fms in this mode. The
trade off is that on images that require large monotone spreads you will
get some color banding in 3 bitplane mode. But you would be surprized how
good many images look with in this mode.
If you can gain access to a DCTV and would like I could QuarterBack up a
couple of 3 bitplane anims and mail them to you. Just e-mail me your
address.
Boy wont it be nice when online services are inexpensive and fast enough
to allow swapping 1-3meg files!
BTW one of my most eagerly awaited vapor ware products it the "chip ram
accelerator" that is supposed to give 2000 owners 2megs of chip ram AND
solve the band width problem witch slows down hi rez animations.
-Paul-
Paul, your reply was meant for Paul, but was addressed to me. I'm sure
he'll see it though.
You know, I *was* going to challenge your comment that you can easily crank
out 30fps using DCTV 3bitplane (ie. to the amiga that is hires, 8color). I
really didn't see it, unless the anim was designed with minimal
movement/changes, etc. But I just went over to DPaint and created a
moderately complex 640x200x3bitplane anim, with moderate-large changes each
frame, and it *did* run at close to 30fps.
Now, I doubt if I'd get the same rate on a fly-by through a landscape where
*lots* change each frame. I was also using an 030 machine, which does help
a bit 🙂
But I just wanted to let you know I checked your assertion out, and you're
right. Very good.
–jp–seattle–
John,
Well maybe I should not have asserted that they were 30fps when I did
not actually MEASURE them. But as you see they seem pretty close. One
interesting experiment I performed was to try to duplicate a VERY small
part of the Back To The Future III DCTV demo I saw at last year's World Of
Amiga in NY. I digitised a short sequence that would loop (Christopher
Lloyd ride a horse) from the laser disk. In 3 bitplane mode the result was
very impressive. Full motion full screen video – just like the demo! Now
again I did not measure the frame rate, and it may have indeed been running
a little slow, but to my untrained eye it looked very smooth!
I would assume that when digitizing video almost every pixel would
change from frame to frame! Try this type of experiment and I think you
will be surprised. While the output of the 3 bitplane mode may not good
enought for most professional applications it sure is great fun on the
hobbiest level!
-Paul-
Thanks Paul
That would be great. I can scrounge a DCTV somewhere.
Paul Toal 603 Hudis st. Rohnert Park Ca. 94928
I'll send you a couple of disks in return,
Pick a favorite subject 🙂
-Paul-
–pt–not seattle– 😉
Paul,
OK, I'm off next week so I'll Quarterback up a few anims to send to you.
Another option (If you can't easily gain access to a 2500 or 3000 and a
DCTV) would be for me to dump a few anims to video (VHS) and send a tape to
you. If you prefer video tape let me know, otherwise I'll send the disks
off to you next week.
-Paul-
The disks would be great Paul. Thanks a bunch. I'm starting to poke around
the classifieds, don't see too many people unloading DCTV's.
Paul
–pt–not seattle– 😉
Hey, I'd be interested in a video tape of some stuff too! Put me on the
list, please 🙂
An idea: I have quite a few animations on tape here, you do, many others
regularly here on CIS do to. It's a shame that we aren't sharing our work,
no? So….. how about a "Rotating Amiga Anim Video Tape Club"? You send
me a tape with your stuff. I look at your stuff. I add a couple of my
things to that tape. I send it to someone else. They look, and add their
stuff to it. They send it to someone else. If we got 10 people on that
list, and the tape was continually rotated, then when it got back to you,
you'd see everyone else's work too, and you'd add your new stuff to it and
mail it to me. etc….
Work wouldn't have to be 'polished', or complete. Could be used to show
works in progress (hey, I have a lot of those!), etc too.
So long as everyone was *prompt* about reviewing the tape, adding their
material, and mailing it on (maybe use a reusable mailer for the tape?) a
complete cycle would be made in about two mos or so? Thoughts?
–jp–seattle–
Thats a cool idea about trading Videos of Animation tho I prefer to make a
few $$$ on my work.I will probably be releasing a 40-60 minute tape in 3
months or so of Amiga Animation.I do however UL some of my anims if ye'd
like to take a look.2 examples are my Tiefighter Anim and my Klingon Anim's
as well as some Imagine objects
I've seen many of your anims; good stuff! I also like your objects –
thanks! Be sure to let me know when you get your tape going.
You know, if the anims on the tape are not single framed (ie. would they
play real-time?) then would you consider making selections available as
regular amiga anims as well? As much as I like the AW anim tapes and such,
I also really like to have the 'real thing' 🙂 There's something nice
about being able to see it on the computer, vs seeing it on tape, don't you
think?
–jp–seattle–
Most of my Anims are in Anim 5 format tho many wouldn't fit on a floppy
either.When the tape is released I "MAY" include a disk of objects from the
tape as to including the Anims I kinda doubt it,I wil continue to UL anims
here and elsewhere tho(locally here in NY)
John,
I don't have much to offer at this point, however I think your idea is
the cat's meow, and well suited to a community environment like a CIS
Forum. It would certainly be worth the small amount in postage to view a
continuously growing tape of work by people we know. It also serves as
inspiration, both in the spiritual and artistic sense of the word. Let's
make this work! We could discuss it for a few days to establish some base
parameters, like the need for a title page to separate each "chapter"; full
coordinates, including CIS PPN, mailing address and phone number, would
probably be a good idea too.
Blaq! – from Toronto via
Whap!
John,
Sounds good to me. Email me your address and I'll start by sending a
tape (VHS) to you!
-Paul-
Got it. Thanks John.
Paul
–pt–not seattle– 😉
Paul, I thought I'd jump in here and give you my experience related to
your original question of single framing vs. DCTV anim. Surprisingly good
results are possible with DCTV. In fact, a Commodore rep told me they were
going to integrate it into the CDTV for improving full motion video (this
was at the INFOCOMM show in D.C. last week where CD-I was making a big
splash). But on the subject, I have been using the Nucleus Personal SFC
with great results with a FireCracker. I have also created the same anims
with DCTV with good results. However, the problem mentioned earlier about
delta times does tend to screw up the smoothness and
timing of playback – critical for professional applications. Also, I need
to output to betacamSP in component – I'm using an OMNIGEN 721 to transcode
– and the component output is about as good as RGB vs. the soft NTSC look
of DCTV. However, considering the huge storage overhead of 750K frames vs.
60K DCTV frames and the difference in investment, it is amazing what you
can get with DCTV. I use the DCTV method for previewing the anim and
showing clients, etc. and in many cases, it would be good enough. Anyway,
thats MHO
Chris,
When you go to tape with 24 bit, how do you lay it down. Do you keep the
machine in pause (ready) while the pics are rendering or do you pre-make
all the frames then dump in one full sweep.
I am trying to render my lightwave output frames to a tape drive
automatically then call off the frames as the single frame controller needs
them. I rent the single frame deck so head wear and tear isn't a concern
(sorry Mr. Vendor).
Have you or anyone else come up with a working solution? At $85 per day
I would like to keep things moving 🙂
Paul
–pt–not seattle– 😉
Paul, I don't have an answer for you on that one, since DCTV's output is
NTSC and not measured in bit planes, the Amiga thinks it's processing 16
color Hi-Res, but the buffering in DCTV handles all the frame display. No
matter what frame rate setting you may use, DCTV will only "play" frames as
they become ready for display.