#What's Broken in Beta
41 messages in this thread
[ continuation ]
one for delivery this July. And this was after going in with checkbook in
hand and A3000 "wowism" in heart. It seems if one is interested in video
the A3000 is not the best platform. All-in-all, a mildly dissappointing
experience.
wmc
Wayne,
Hang on….you were running BETA software on that 3000. Not the
software you brought in…the Operating System is beta!
Wait till v2.0 is firmed up…then try your software.
Don
Don,
I realize I was running beta. Sorry if it appeared I was being other than
objective on the software. I was just reporting and didn't mean to imply
anything other than if you plan to see all this stuff demo'd at the dealer,
well…
The only other thing is that I think it is really gamma, no? Be that as it
may, the packages that DO break under release 2.0 (there is no such thing
as bug free software…) will be a subset of what is broken now. So some
people may want to wait to plonk the dough down until the companies or CBM
demostrate working release versions of software X if they can't live
without it. If your "must have" software is working under the current
beta/gamma (and I believe diffent dealers have different releas levels,
true?) it is safe to assume it will run under the released version.
Now, the subjective part of my comments…Why the mushy wimpy keayboard!!!
I like my 2000 Keyboard… It pushes back! Do you know for certain if the
keyboards are interchangeable? My Dealer says no, another dealer says yes
and the CBM A3000 hot line says, "..er, well, ah..".
wmc
Wayne,
No…2.0 OS is still beta, no idea on the keyboards.
Don
Strange… my 3000 keyboard 'pushes back'.. my 2000 keyboard is mushy and
wimpy.
-larry
Larry (and Wayne),
Obviously, as in the past, there is more than one supplier of
keyboards for the Amiga. For example, I really didn't like the Cherry
keyboards at all, the HyTek is not bad…in fact, I'd call it a good
keyboard…and the A1000 was the best of the lot.
So I presume that Wayne used the equivalent of the Cherry on the
3000…and you've got the equivalent of the HyTek on your A300.
Don
Lary,
I get the sense that the keyboard on all models was a "grab bag" as far as
the touch. Since the 2000 kbd ccan be used with the 3000, I'm no longer
concerned as I can swap if the 3000 comes in with one as mushy as the demo
unit.
BTW for the benefit of those who seem to be overly sensitive to 3000
criticism (not you, Larry) the mushy feel is just like a $13000 Compaq set
up at work which many peopl like…its only an opinion about feel and not
about quality…(shees, its so tough to have opinions these days…)
wmc
Wayne,
You are right about the 'grab bag' and keyboard feel I think, and for
sure about the subjective nature of what constitutes a good feel.
-larry
Wayne:
First off, posting this list is BAD. Your dealer obviously has an older
revision of the 2.0 software, as the local dealer here has a 3000 , and
Pagestream DOES work on it. Remember, the OS out now is BETA, and as such,
is subject to change, in other words, most everything WILL work by the time
for release version is ready! Also, the 3000 keyboards are probably as bad
as the 500 & 2000 keyboards in as much as there isn't that much consistancy
between different ones. I've owned 3 different 500's, and now have a 2000,
and all three 500's had a different feel to them, some I liked, some I
didn't, my 2000 has a nice feel to it, and the 3000 at the dealer definatly
has a great feel to it. Don't judge the whole crop from one sample!
-Mike Schiller
CIS: 76416,3065
Mike,
Does the 3k kbd you played with feel real "light" (like you barely touch it
and the key registers) or is it like my 2000 where you can rest the weight
of the fingers on the keys without a stroke happening (you actually gotta
push…).
I realize the os is beta. I was not implying anything, just reporting. And
it ain't bad to say what does/does not run under 2.0 as there WILL be
programs that don't run under 2.0. Most notabley those who ignored CBM
conventions. Those PGMs will be a subset of the now broken ones. So, since
dealers are taking deposits for delivery positions on A3000's and your
gotta-have-it-cause-thats-how-I-make-a-living software is in the no work
catagoy now, you might want to hold off buying until later.
BTW, if its bad to report what is not working, its bad to report that the
entire paula is not new, that the special chips still run at 7khz etc…
its all information one needs to make inteligent buying desisions.
wmc
Beta software is subject to change. The frequency of the custom chips is
not. It is not fair to repoert failing software under a beta OS, because
people will remember that, and will be saying either that the OS or the
program is no good.
-larry
People take all kinds of things out of context. I can't be responsible for
them. I offer, they take. If they take the napkin without the doughnut,
what can I do…;^}
wmc
Well, the point is, they do take things either out of context, or on a
mistaken notion that people are talking about a released product. It does
do harm, as can be seen by the person who was under the impression that the
3000 was buggy becuase some programs wouldn't run under 2.0 on it. It was
corrected, but what about the casual reader? What about the person just
dropping in to a conversation in the middle of it, perhaps looking to see
what's up with the latest Amiga stuff? Can you conceive of such a person
saying "Forget it! It's buggy, and I'll stick with my Compaq or whatever"?
I can, and the worst part is that the person doing that might never make it
known that he came, he saw, and he left emnpty handed and with an
impression that does not reflect the true situation.
A while back, I got mail from people reading some of the threads here,
asking about the speed and capabilities of the 3000. They were asking if
all the negative things being put forth were true. I set them straight with
what I hope was a fair and accurate assesment of the capabilities of the
new machine, but the mail I got was probably only from a small fraction of
the people who read the same things into the conversation, but didn't take
the time to ask what the facts were, and that, my friend, is what bothers
me about the whole thing. In the case of the conversation in question that
prompted the members to email, it infuriated me, which was probably quite
apparent in my responses to the messages in question.
-larry
If people insist on posting lists of software that does or does not work
with OS 2.0B, why don't they at least type the Version command in a CLI and
find out the exact version number of the OS that is on the 3000 they are
testing. Then the rest of us could see the evolution of the BETA releases.
Thanx,
David McCabe
Dave,
Good point! If I get back this weekend I will do that.
I'm also interested in hearing if other people have experience with those
packages running on beta/gamma versions. The other thing to check (as i
reported) is the memory config. My dealer had one with 2meg chip and that
may have bothered some programs that rely on fast ram being present.
wmc
Wayne,
Your dealer is either very unknowledgable about Amiga, stupid, or feels
little need to support the machine.
All dealers who legitimately got the 3000 demo unit(s) also go a very
nice dealer book complete with wholesale/retail pricing, ad slicks, glossy
brouchures, etc.
Your run down of what does and does not work under 2.0 is not relevant.
2.0 is in beta, it is not for sale, nor will it be anytime soon. Dealer
demo 3000s were set up so you could boot from 1.3 or the beta 2.0. If your
dealer hasn't figured this out he should seriously consider getting out of
the Amiga market before he does more damage from ignorance.
-sja
Wayne, you've been reading all the posts here so yours is really
inexcusable. You know full well by now that 2.0 is not finished software
and that you don't know what will work and what won't. I posted a list of a
few programs, but I made sure to note that those were pre-release trials.
You know full well that 2.0 is in beta and that the o/s has bugs, not
necessarily the software. None of those problems should have ANYTHING to do
with the A3000 itself. Besides, the 2000 etc. will be shipped with 2.0
eventually. Look before you leap (to conclusions) next time!
— Ethan
As Voltaire once said, "I do not agree with what you have said, but I will
defend to the death your right to say it."
For goodness sake, let's stop personalizing all this A3000 early beta what
software fails what works stuff. Unless we're willing to assume Wayne is
nuts he's just reporting what he saw, along with conclusions based on what
he saw. What's the big deal about doing that???
– Mark
Mark,
Cuz Wayne IS nuts! <grin>
(going back under my rock so Wayne doesn't see me)
-sja
In addition, remember that since 2.0 is in beta, they may be fixing each
bug as it comes along, so revisions may be coming hot and heavy to dealers.
It may come down to when the dealer received the machine as to what version
it is, and how buggy it is.
John
John, and All:
Please remember that the version of OS that your dealer has, is not
necessaraly the current release. Nor is there any reason to believe that
the dealers will be kept up to date on Beta releases.
Many of the non-working programs listed here on CIS have already been
reported to CBM as compatability issues, and there is a stated intent by
CBM to keep as much of the released software working as possible. I
believe, (my opinion only) that in excess of 90% of the current software
will work under 2.0 by the time it is released.
Dean
DKB Software
The big deal is that while many of our members know that the A3000 is
running beta software, there are others that don't know that. We've got
new people signing on for the first time to find out about the A3000, and
they'll see something like that and say, "Gee, the A3000 doesn't run any of
the current software, why should I bother?" Worse yet, they'll tell other
people about it too.
Steve,
In that case, I think the solution is an open commentary and exchange of
ideas. Most people read up as much as they can about issues like software
compatability before they spend thousands on a piece of hardware.
I just don't like the idea of surpressing any honestly-inspired commentary,
regardless of how phrased.
– Mark
I never said anything about surpressing commentary. It's important to
clearly state that the OS software is BETA, because just saying something
like "DPAINT doesn't work on the 3000" is misleading to people that don't
know the software is in BETA.
Recently I was in a store where a few people were playing with the 3000 and
one of them said "Well, it's nice, but it won't run most of the software
that's out". I stepped in and pointed out that the software was in BETA
still, and that it was likely that most software would run in the release
version of 2.0…other would require upgrades. If I hadn't said that,
those folks would have gone off with the wrong impression of the machine.
The same thing can happen here. As long as it's clearly stated it was
"tested" under Beta (an OLD beta by the way), there is no problem. Anything
else is misleading to people not "in the know".
Steve
What bothered me was how he said he was so disappointed because
nothing worked, when he knew from our discussions here that this was the
case as the software was in beta.
— Ethan
Ethan,
Not knowing all the details, I agree that that would be bothersome. On the
other hand, I can understand his frustration. We would all like it to work
perfectly as soon as it's available for playing around with.
-Mark
Ethan,
I thought the title "whats broken in beta" was sufficient. I also don't
recall trying to tell people "dont buy this machine caus nothing works!"
Everyone here, I believe, knows full well that it is in beta. So your
argument about my reading all the messages argues against you….all the
messages say beta beta beta – why do I need to repeat it? I'm talking to
the choir, not the GP.
wmc
Unfortunately, I must disagree. It's NOT the choir I'm worried about. You
ARE talking to the GP. Where do you thing the GP goes to get information?
Victor A. Wagner, Jr.
Vic,
The GP goes to dealers, the "addicts" go to CIS….;^}
wmc
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying, but it sounded
like you were saying how nothing worked under 2.0 and you were very
"disappointed". If that wasn't your intentions then I'm sorry but both the
GP and the informed read these messages and if I misinterpreted what you
were saying…
— Ethan
Ethan,
The only disappointment is that I felt that it may be an indicator that
some of the initial release dates might be 3 – 6 weeks optomistic, and that
the 1.3 to 2.0 transition might be a little more drawn out (in terms of
programs catching up) than the previous upgrades.
wmc
Wayne,
While there are certainly quite a few things that have broken under the
current beta version of 2.0, I'd expect that to change quickly. Also,
others report that quite a few things DO run OK. I felt as you did, seeing
most things at my dealer's bomb, but realize now that the things that were
on his HD were not the programs that folks were saying were OK. So it's a
mixed bag at the moment, but since it's not a release, I'm not too worried.
Developers have had access to this version of 2.0 for some time, and if
they have any interest in staying in business, have been working out some
upgrade path or an agreement with CBM as to what would be "fixed". I'm sure
many aren't HAPPY about that (understandably), but they have a little time
to work it out.
Karl
Karl,
Well put and my feelings as well. I just liked getting feed back from those
who were able to get some of the pgms running that are not on the the
machine I played with. That gives me and idea of how long initial delivery
3000 owners (among which I may be) might have to wait for certain programs
to run well with 2.0.
wmc
Wayne,
You might want to ask your dealer to try to install more FAST RAM in his
A3000. Many of the programs that crashed, probably did so because after
loading KickStart into FAST RAM, there is only about 200K left. When the
release OS is put into ROM, much of this problem will disapear.
Dean
DKB Software
Dean,
He told me after I finihed playing, (and he was bout to close) that all the
RAM was config'd as chip ram: (Is that possible at this point?) I will
mention your suggestion to him, tho.
wmc
Wayne,
I'm not sure if it is possible. The machine can use 2 meg of CHIP RAM,
but it may require at least 512K of FAST RAM in order for KickStart to
load.
Dean
Wayne,
Let's examine what you've said to date:
1) Your dealer has an advance demo of a machine that has a demo beta
version of the operating system, which he knows is demo and beta.
2) He opened the machine and intentionally changed the configuration of the
memory from 1 meg CHIP + 1 meg FAST to 2 megs CHIP.
3) He (and you) are complaining that nothing seems to work on the machine
with the beta OS and the changed hardware configuration.
Is that about it?
Doesn't seem like there's a lot of substance to your claims up to this
point.
David
David,
Guess your glasses need cleaning.
I never said the dealer changed the demo unit memory configuration. I said
he reported it to me. The exact truth is he reported it with words like, "
the ***h***s sent the d**** thing with 2 megs of chip ram and no fast
ram…" I did not ask if "they" were CBM or his main location.
Again, because people can't hear me or see facial expressions they read
their own emotions into the message exactly as you have done. Because of
your emotional commitment to the goodness of the machine, any report to the
contrary you take as a personal affront. I was not complaining… I made a
report on my experiments. Part of good scientific method is disclosing the
nature of the experimental setup. I DID err in that I did not get the exact
rev of the OS to post; the memory observation was a report of the setup
puposely to allow people to know that the problems may have been due to the
setup that I thought was the root of some of the packages' problems.
If it makes you feel better, I will be ordering one as soon as I figure out
how to get the bread together…
wmc
Wayne,
A good scientific method dictates that you should also have meaningful data
to publish. (Yes, I do consider posting a message on an international
message base system as publishing.) A good scientific method dictates that
you post things like the configuration of the machine and the OS rev.
level. A good scientific method also includes your own observations and
conclusions from the data as a part of the original posting, not as some
afterthought.
Wayne, it was precisely your lack of scientific method that I gave me
problems with your posting. It was not, as you suggest, a personal
affront. Posting messages that package 'X' doesn't work with 2.0, without
giving the necessary information for people to analyze the validity of your
conclusions seems more like "shooting from the hip" than a scientific
report on a controlled experiment.
You are entitled to your own opinions, and are entitled to post them within
the policies of CIS and the AmigaForum. I have no problem with that. It's
"pseudo-facts" posted without qualifying information that I have a problem
with. i.e. you can post, but expect to be challenged, and don't think that
anybody who challenges you has dirty glasses.
People need to realize that problems discovered with a beta release are
problems that are getting fixed, not problems that they can expect to have.
The time to consider posting messages on what works and what doesn't work
is when the OS is released.
Anyway, I take it from the last line of your message that you must have the
confidence that the problems will be fixed in the release version, since
you indicated your desire to purchase an A3000, so, I'll end this with a 8)
David
Yes, it is possible to configure up to 2K as chip ram by simply moving the
1K of fast ram that comes with the machine over to the chip side. I guess
your dealer wanted to see how the machine worked with a full 2K of chip.
However, all the articles I have read say that you should only do that when
you add MORE fast ram.
?|^] Ray Lewis
Ray,
He got it that way (and wasn't happy about it). He put it back to 1 and 1
during the week and I played with it some this weekend. It seemed to load
and allow editing of PageStream files excpet for graphics. He said he got
ProPage working except for graphics too. Probably somehing in the beta
version (ks 36.28, wb 36.10).
wmc