#WOA Report: GVP!!!
62 messages in this thread
[ continuation ]
TVPaint was also running on the card; this is a 24-bit paint program
with a great user interface.
The EGS card has an Inmos graphic processor, and 4 or 8 megs of VRAM.
Now…here is the bad news…the version that is going to be shipping
within 60 days will only interface to the GVP Combo cards for the
2000…seems that there is a 32-bit feature connector on the Combo. It
will not plug into any standard Amiga slot, or into the Series I GVP card.
A version for the 3000, however, will be available that will not need any
additional GVP hardware to interface to the computer. GVP is considering
an upgrade program.
They were also showing their new graphic processor, called Mirage (I
think). The program is *FAAST*, and seems to duplicate much of the
functionality of ADPro and/or Imagemaster. This extends to things that IM
famous for (at least to me), such as Morph and Radial Wave…these, and
many other features are availble in Mirage. Mirage already supports the
EGS card and IV-24 (via EGS) as display cards; I watched one guy do his ops
strictly on the IV-24…realtime 24-bit!!
What will EGS mean to the average user? Who knows? But, if it works,
perhaps Commodore will adopt it and formalize the standard. And, it does
work.
GVP also showed their 8-bit sampler and other standard fare.
I will continue with this tomorrow if there is any interest. I am very
tired…long day. Of course, I can die and go to heaven now, since all
entering showgoers were approached and pinned by Kiki Stockhammer with
Toaster 2.0 buttons. Oh, Kiki….:)
Please note: all of the preceding is subjectively (and possibly, due to
fatigue, faultily) presented by…
Jonathan
– via Whap!
Thanks for the news Jonathan. Much appreciated!
looking forward to hearing more soon.
Michael
….from the north coast
Michael–
OK…I've rested up some. Here is the rest of the information that I can
recall…I still haven't gone through the literature that I brought back.
Again, please note, that any of this information is presented subjectively,
and possibly, inaccurately. Don't hold me responsible for any mistakes!
Before I go on, I have to touch on the GVP stuff again. It seems
that GVP is going for Amiga hegemony…they are now, truly, a one stop
vendor for almost anything that you need for the Amiga. The voice mail/fax
combo looked impressive, although I could not get the demo to work (they
were having some technical problems). The Mirage software, again, was
amazing. It is certainly faster than anything I've ever seen (it was
operating on a 50mhz '030, so I was able to take that into account); its
user interface seemed to be head and shoulders over anything I've used.
Very slick.
The EGS is something that should be causing an uproar in the Amiga
community. The fact that they have this DIG system shortly available for
use with their new graphics board, the IV-24 and for native Amiga graphic
modes demonstrates just how device independent it is; I will be very
interested to see what kind of reaction this (as well as Mirage) brings
from Ben Williams…and I'm sure that he's up to the challenge!
In other booths…Foundation 3.0 was being shown by its new (and
old) vendor, Parallax Publishing. The new price is $100, and its support
for CDTV looks exhaustive. The told me that Impulse only sold 120 units,
and that Parallax decided to reclaim it and do the marketing themselves.
The demo that was running looked mighty impressive, although the booth was
not much of a draw.
The Amiga Centre Scotland folks were there, showing their Harlequin
board running TVPaint (I can't wait to buy TVPaint! It looks terrific!).
The Harlequin, from what I can gather, allows you to do frame grabs, *VERY*
limited PIP (the PIP function runs in Amiga graphics modes…really
[cont'd]
[cont'd] useful as a rough preview. I tried to use the board hand-on, but
I guess I didn't look enough like a buyer. Some small scottish fellow
kicked me off in mid demo! (I has been using it for, tops, two minutes).
Doesn't make much difference, because the GVP board looked like a much
better solution overall.
Newtek had some "inside" information…seems that they are now
developing add-ons for the Toaster that include: sound support, editing
support, TBC support….additionally, the mentioned that some third part
was now selling an add-on board that will give S-VHS functionality. Price
of the board is around $400, but the vendor's name eludes me.
Hypermedia Concepts was there with CDROM-FS and the Fish ROM, but
they were terminally sold out of the file system…as was everyone else.
Seems that CDROM is really about to go ballistic on the Amiga.
Electronic Arts was there, and had an DPaint upgrade (to version
4.1). The new version supports full screen morphing, as well as scaleable
font support. About time, guys. They also claim that numerous bugs have
been squashed, and that the program has been speeded up. They were not
offering upgrades at the show, however; they are supposed to be available
now.
ASDG was pretty strange. They had a mini video seminar booth
setup, with a rear projector rig showing off ADPro a bit. This was pretty
dry….in a second booth, however, they were showing a very large model
railroad that was controlled by an Amiga. The Amiga was also providing
digitized sound effects for that added realism. This booth, however,
proved to be a big yawn for most of Sunday's crowd.
Rumors….the GVP rep let slip that they were working on a solution
to increase and accelerate chip ram. Newtek mentioned that they would not
be interested in supporting non-linear editing at this time…they felt the
quality stunk. Commodore's rep slipped about upcoming CDTV support for all
machines….
That's about it… Jonathan
Thanks for the recap Jonathan… all sounds very interesting… especially
GVP's EGS. And of course, the remarkable non-news from CBM.
Michael
….from the north coast
The second booth wasn't ASDG – it was Amazing Amiga. :^)
–Ben
It was AA, ASDG, and CATS all together, actually.
Ron
The little train said "Amazing Amiga" on it – no more, no less. I'm
"amazed" that CATS and ASDG would pay for a booth to advertise Amazing
computing. But stranger things have surely happened.
–Ben
I was told that all 3 were involved, and that ASDG did the hardware.
Ron
The hardware for the train control? Cool. :^) THey should have got creit,
methinks. My trains are Amiga-controlled as well (N gauge, 4 loops, 2
x-overs)
–Ben
YOU play with model trains? 🙂
Today must be Thursday. I never could get the hang of Thursdays.
You bet. :^) I have as many hobbies as I have digits.
–Ben
He can't afford the full size ones.
-larry
Eet- Picture Gomez Addams ……………………….Boom!
Heh… I asked the rep at the booth whether they could program it to crash
the trains together… <grin>
.–>Steve Bennett
One of the many things I wish I could afford and have room for; trains,
with Amiga control making it even nicer.
Ron
Why is it that there are just way to many hobbies that one would like to
get back in to?
I had started a SMALL N gauge layout once. Now my Amiga gets most of my
money.
All this talk about Amiga controlled layouts is making my pocket book
squeal! Hey! There it went! Come back!
Neat! I can get an old model railroad aquaintance to get an Amiga! 🙂
Dan McCoy – via Whap! and saving money doing it too!
N Gauge is a cool size…. you can do a lot in a small space, and the
realism of the rolling stock is really quite good nowadaze.
–Ben
FYI, Mirage's morphing is nto anywhere NEAR the quality of the morphing
that Imagemaster can do — Kermit is using the SGI technique, which
results in a great deal of image-to-image mismatching for fine details.
Also note that Mirage is NOT shipping – GVP is qutoing June. It's vapor at
present.
Regarding speed… I guess you forgot to ask what it was running on, eh?
<grin>
–Ben
Ben–
I take some exception with some of your points and concur with others.
The morphing does not look nearly as good as Imagemaster's, at least from
the demo I saw.
I was told less than 60 days for all of the products showing at the
booth…so that jibes with June. Still, I wouldn't regard it as vapor,
since it appeared to be pretty speedy and stable. It is, at least, real.
I mentioned that it was running on a 50mhz '030 in my first message.
Sooo…scaling down its performance by about half (that's being liberal, I
think, since I am running a 28mhz '030, with 50mhz '882), I would still say
it SUBJECTIVELY appeared to be faster than either Imagemaster or ADPro.
I was really interested in your opinion on EGS…I already own
Imagemaster.
Jonathan
– via Whap!
Jonathan,
Until it's released, it isn't a buyable product. To me, that makes it
vapor. You can call it whatever you want, you just can't call it "yours".
That's my point.
Regarding scaling, didn't see it – so can't comment. There may be other
issues. As a for instance, our scaling can scale up AND down at the same
time, something that distinguishes it from the scaling in AdPro – and
possibly from Mirage. Scaling quality may also be an issue. Dunno – when
and if it's released, we, and you, will know. And of course, whatever they
do, we'll do our best to do better. Competition is just fine with us. We
welcome them to the market (when they get there).
I'm sure Mirage is "real" (unless it's a mirage?), but that doesn't mean
it'll make it to a "product". Long, long way between what you saw at WOA
and a product. I know Kermit a bit (he is a HAM-E customer, and the
feature-list for for Mirage reads exactly like a clone of Image
Professional / Imagemaster, which we take as quite a complement :^)…
anyway, he is a nice enough fellow and seemed to be quite responsible and
so on for what dealings we had with him. GVP is of course also a pretty
good company. Not saying anything else – except, not released, not
something you can buy – and there you go.
EGS: again, when it's out, we'll think about it – that's all I can tell you
now; we're just not an organization that spends time on other peoples
"maybe" products. When and if it appears, we'll give it a good hard look,
and go from there. If CBM released DIG before this comes out, then not a
chance… issues like that can throw predictions out the window, hence I
prefer not to waste time trying to make them.
Let me point at the SAGE stuff as an example. When it came out, we had it
supported within days. Previous to that, we ignored it. Digital Micronics
used Imagemaster to demo SAGE the first time it was shown in public, at the
Canadian WOA show last year. Likely we'll do EGS the same way, assuming CBM
doesn't intervene. Now, consider the Supra FAXmodem. We said
[ MORE ]
Ben, something I have to compliment you on is the way you not only
acknowledge other products, but (IMAO) fairly evaluate them when you speak
of them. I've yet to hear a comment about some competing product that
sounded (again, IMAO) even slightly prejudicial. I honestly wish I could
be as objective about products, and I also wish OTHER competitors could
adopt your behaviour 🙂
Today must be Thursday. I never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Thanks. I try, though far from perfect. Also, being honest about some
things (like DCTV's true resolution) never earned us much but complaints…
but it IS the best policy.
–Ben
[ continuation ]
(a Loooong time ago) that we would consider supporting it when and if it
came out, so that we could compare the capabilities that it came with
against what we could provide porting ClickFAX. Look at things today…
still no FAX capability as far as I know (although in the last week I've
not paid much attention, what with WOA and all). See why we don't jump into
things until they are real?
–Ben
Ben–
Hey…I'm not asking BBS to support something that is not shipping…that
would be pretty unreasonable (and to no benefit to me, personally).
However…EGS is reality, just not shipping. I can't believe that
you have no opinion on what is essentially DIG for the Amiga, and will
(supposedly) be available in 60 days or less.
The GVP rep claimed that EGS will be made available to all takers;
he did not mention if the cost would prohibitive. On the other hand, it
would seem to me that this is very exciting news, especially to HAM-E and
Firecracker users, as well as to the SAGE folks. Something that would
allow the user to pick the hardware of choice, and know that any EGS
capable application would run on it, up to the capabilities of their
hardware. Nice!
The hardware was pretty impressive, but it didn't get me excited
like the EGS software concept. EGS would provide the Amiga with what it
needs, finally. I sincerely hope that its real (not an elaborate demo), I
hope that it ships in a timely manner, and I hope that it is easily
available to all those vendors that want to support it. We have needed
this capability for a long time; although it is a third party standard, it
is one that can benefit many Amiga vendors.
Jonathan
Jonathan,
GVP's EGS (that's not the proper name for it as EGS refers to hardware as
well) is a breakthru of sorts. However, unless CBM endorses it (I doubt
they will) it will only be a stopgap measure until CBM releases their own
DIG or RTG (retargetable graphics) standard. At that point, GVP's offering
will die off.
-sja
Steve–
The way I see things: GVP, due to their strong presence in the Amiga
market, must have (aside from Commodore) a pretty good idea of whats coming
in terms of DIG. Their system exists now (or shortly) and if it proves to
be essentially DIG, I think that a standard will (or should) evolve around
it.
Jonathan
I'm sure that GVP does know CBM's intentions concerning DIG/RTG. While I
haven't seen their system, from everything I've read about it, it sounds
great (we'll have to wait until it is released before the downsides, if
any, become known). I just feel uneasy about a 3rd party company creating
and setting standards in such an important area for the future of this
machine.
Didn't Electronic Arts design the IFF format?
Loyd
With CBM's blessing and help, yes.
Ok… opinion, as far as it can go:
If it IS DIG, and if CBM doesn't release something in the meantime, or
convince us that they WILL release something shortly, and if it is
available to anyone to support, we'll support it.
Position: DIG is very valuable, and very important to the machine. Ditto on
VM.
–Ben
<frown> I dunno bout VM. I've been using it on a 386SX under winders. I
don't like it. So there.
Today must be Thursday. I never could get the hang of Thursdays.
VM is very useful if you are not able to purchase memory. Some images, for
instance a full-page scan, can take 30 megs (or more!) of ram; that's a LOT
of memory. Personally, I think getting memory is the answer; and with DKB's
new 2632 memory board out, we're going to see a LOT of big-memory machines.
I use 28 megs of ram myself, and have an itch for another 16 or so. :^) I'd
MUCH rather have ram than VM, but then, I have the option… many people
don't.
The proper place for VM to come from, same as DIG, is CBM. ANything else
is, as Steve puts it, a "stopgap".
–Ben
Actually, Ben, VM could come from _any_ hard disk manufacturer and be
useful, as well as an immediate sales advantage for that company. Its
somewhat strange that, except for one German company, no one has done it,
since it would seem to be a valid means of sales differentiation.
andy
No, it's not strange – VM requires sophisticated use of the MMU, and doing
that is 99.99% certain to butt heads with whatever CBM does.
Sure, anyone can write it… but CBM can break it and almost certainly will
if you DO write it.
–Ben
Maybe I have a different perspective; but if someone were to write a VM
library for their hard disk controller that worked, I'm sure they could
coordinate with Mike Sinz so they can remain compatible; besides, its not
like new roms appear every month… between 1 and 2 years is more like it,
which is actually a fairly reasonable lifetime for a particular version of
a product anyway.
andy
(I've been considering doing one myself, but I have a number of
other projects that I'd like to get done first)
Ben–
Sounds pretty good.
Jonathan
Ben,
Did you see the new Avid? Three seperate authors praised the morph feature
of Imagemaster. BTW what is the status of the name the program contest?
Best…
Mike Reid
Via WHAP! & CatZap & Switch & BroCon
Um…. I don't think I've seen this; just the issue where Dr. Mortier did a
quick mention of it. Glad to hear it, though.
We're waiting on the UK distribution agreements to see what happens or
needs to happen with the name. We'll pick at that time. The best name will
get the prize even if we don't use it, to be fair for all the effort people
went to. These things move slowly, though.
–Ben
Ben,
It's in Vol #3-Issue #4. The whole back page of the mailer wrap and the
first two paragraphs of the article on page 18. Good stuff. Best…
Mike Reid
Via WHAP! & CatZap & Switch & BroCon
Very good – we'll watch for it, for certain!
–Ben
There were three mentions of Image Master in the latest AVID.
Ben,
I'm typing to you on a Practical Peripherals PM14400FXSA, so it's not
vaporware. It comes with PC fax software which can be traded in "at some
future date" for Mac fax software. No Amiga software is to be available. I
want ClickFAX for this modem! (Class I)
-sja
This is a possibility – again, we're holding, waiting to see what Supra is
cooking up.
Thanks for the input.
–Ben
Ben,
I want it too, for the Practical Modem of course.
Don
As Ben already knows, I'm one of the team who created Mirage. We're quite
pleased with our program and are as enthusiastic about it as all get out!
We're not interested in online potshots at our competitors, so we'll avoid
that tack entirely. Suffice to say, outside of our development team, there
is no one who knows what techniques we use for anything, much less the
morphing which we did not demonstrate outside of a handful of simple
animations.
We're very excited and look forward to the release of Mirage more than
anyone!
Kermit Woodall
Kermit, there is a graphics presentation program on the IBM side of things
called Mirage – do you have a trademark?
Just curious.
Thanks for the info, it'll get checked in to!
Kermit Woodall
Actually, Kermit – I believe we *do* know. We've studied morphing
extensively, as you might imagine. :^) I heard you describe the UI, and I
saw the results, which (compared to what we could do with the same source)
were quite poor; as well as very similar to the early-generation morphing
tools from the workstation people. Not a potshot – an observed fact from
your own demos. If you could do better, I would certainly think that you
would have shown better, eh? If not, I apologize in advance – and you
should whack whoever did the demo morph in the mouse. <grin>
Finally – you're not a competitor until you release it. Which we look
forward to as well; as I told you at the show, the more image manipulation
tools out there, the more legitimate a platform the Amiga becomes for
serious work. I meant what I said. Serious users will probably own all
three of the 24-bit systems, as they are all relatively inexpensive. Not
that we'll let you get ahead of us, though. :^)
–Ben
Kiki was there? When? 🙂
Ron
Ron-
She was there Sunday morning…and so was I.
Jonathan
– via Whap!
I would have liked to have seen her; she's come a long way with the
Toaster!
Ron
Some of us still remember Laura (maxine headroom) Longfellow <sigh>.
Today must be Thursday. I never could get the hang of Thursdays.
you mean: Laura NewTekNewTekNNNNewTekNewTek Longfellow <g>
Michael
….from the north coast
What ever happened to Laura Longfellow? Did she quit NewTek?
married Max Headroom & moved to Kankak-k-k-k-k-ke?
Michael
….from the north coast (go Cavs!)
Laura married a few years back, had twins, and still lives in the Topkea
area. She's doing fine. I saw her at the NewTek Xmas party.
I'd heard she was engaged but I didn't know about the marriage and kids.
I never met her but she was the face and voice of this cool new company
called NewTek. As many warm blooded males, she got MY attention. I'm glad
she's doing well!
Dunno, last I heard, she was married with two li'l bambinos. <sigh>
Today must be Monday. I never could get the hang of Mondays.
Any idea how much that EGS card is supposed to sell for?
Steve
List price for the EGS-110/24 is $2699 for 4mb RAM, $3399 for 8mb.
Kermit Woodall