#Single-Framming
31 messages in this thread
I would like some dirrection in solving a dilemma I have. I make animations
on my A-3000 with DCTV and it has been working great until I started
running out of memory playing back the anims I make. So I got more memory,
now at 14 megs about to go to 18 megs, but my anims keep getting larger and
larger and larger. I am sure that eventually I'll start running out of
memory again, and I still have a problem with too much movement causing
slow play-back, especially in 4 bit-plane DCTV. Now I am only doing this at
home so I don't have a big budget, I know that single-framing is the answer
but what would be the best way for `home' use? If I can have a nice set-up
I would probably do side-jobs and hopefully eventually get a job at this.
I have thought about the 16mm film alternative then transferring to tape
but I have just been thinking of another alternative. I am sure that
productions houses sell their older decks to get newer ones, would it be
worth looking into getting one and a SFController? How much would these
decks sell for USED(ball-park figures)? What should I be worried about in
these decks? What format should I stay away from?
Does anybody have any for sale?
Any help in this area would be much appreciated.
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one thing I have to warn you about here mate.When it comes to using a VTR
for Single Framing Animation it Kicks the SH*T out of the VTR's Mechanism
be VERY VERY Careful of buying used Single Frame Accurate VTR's as they may
well not be that accurate anymore due to the TREMENDOUS Strain onthe
Transport mech that all that rewinding/prerolling puts on the machine.You
may want to look to a Service Buraue for yer Single Frame output needs
rather than purchasing VERY Expensive Equipment or go with yer 16 mm Film
idea.I saw in a Recent Review in Amazing Amiga a comparison of a LOW Priced
Film Recorder(about $1800) which is Analog and the Polariod Digital Ci-3000
(about $5000) and both had excellent output,both also have Pin Accurate
Motion Picture Film Recorder Backs avail which are PERFECT for Single
Framing.So for Approx $3000 total ya can get the Analog Model with the
Motion Picture Filmback(guessing on the motion picture film back price it
may be considerably less than the $1200 I'm
guesssing at here)
Thanks for your commets, I know that SF-VTR's are strained alot due to all
the rolling and winding especially if you render directly to tape where it
just sits there paused half the night.
I think if I don't find one I will try the 16mm film route. Has anyone here
tried that? Single framming with a Bolex movie camera and then transferring
that to tape?
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Anthony,
There are a lot of used and "b" stock 3/4 editting decks showing up on the
market at the price of some high end consumer S-VHS stuff. Most of it is
frame accurate and if there is a pro video repair place nearby, most 3/4"
can be upgraded to SP. You might even be able to find one at a pro repair
place that has been "overhauled".
wmc
Wayne, thanks for the info on the Frame accurate decks, I'll ask a friend
of mine (who does computer animations) to fill me in on Pro Video Repair
shops. I don't know why I hadn't thought of that, thanks again.
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Theres a Excellent Article Detailing Single Framing with a Bolex in a Back
issue of AVid magazine,I think it was the Janruary issue MIDGARD GRAPHICS,
CREATORS OF QUALITY ANIMATION.
Yeah I know about the article it is in AVid of Jan 92, I've had a copy of
it and that is why I ask if anyone has done it. Just curious to know if it
is worth it or not.
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I haven't done it myself,tho it's more due to laziness to go find Film for
my Camera than anything else.Keep those Anims Coming dude and Don't forget
the Amigaworld Contest for Animator's Deadline is in October I believe for
entries
So, you do have a Bolex camera? I don't have one so before I went out and
bought one I was wondering if anyone had done it. It would seem like there
is noone here who has done any single-framming with a Bolex 16mm camera.
Have you seem any of my anims? If so, I'd like to hear from anybody,
whether you like them or not. As far as the contest is concerned I do want
to submitt something like my ED-209 anim but I'll have to wait and see if I
can get it to look `just right'.
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I just finished single-framing with a 16mm Bolex, but from my RGB, the NTSC
monitor will be next. A secret- do it at night, with no lights.
Did you get any docs with your Bolex?
–Paul
Whappin' from the Wine Country
So you do have a Bolex? I don't have one, I was asking if anyone has used
one to single-frame and get thier comments before I make my decision.
So, are you satisfied with your set-up? Have you had any problems setting
it up or using it? How much does it `really' cost for the film, developing
and converting to video? Would you recommend it as an alternative to
someone?
If you want some docs for your Bolex I assume you can call the company and
ask them since they still make them, right?
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The only one of your Anims I've seen was the Decloak of the Romulan Warbird
which as I already mentioned I thought was VERY well Done. Nope I don't
have a Bolex I have an old 8mm Movie Camera
I think the De-Cloaking Warbird is the only one I have u/l'ed here when I
get some time I'll u/l some more. I must have missed it when you mentioned
your comment about my anim, glad you liked it.
A friend of mine said that you could single-frame with a old 8mm movie
camera but I think you would lose some resolution there. Have you done
anything with it, like pretend to be Steven Spielberg, lately?
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I did some experimentation with a Super-8 movie camera (remember those,
people? <g>) filming the screen a frame at a time. While it was acceptable
for testing an animation, I wouldn't want to try to do anything which needs
any kind of quality output with it. Colors often didn't quite match from
frame to frame, likewise luminance. And that was only after I got ahold of
a camera with an adjustable shutter speed, so I could set it to 1/30th (and
sometimes 1/15th, which often produced better results) of a second exposure
time. I got much worse results with the first camera I tried which had a
fixed shutter speed. Most frames would be exposed brightly in one part and
dimly in another. Made for terrible output.
–>Steve Bennett
Well, I had thought about the quality and thought it might not be so great
but I have never owned any movie camera so the only thing I know of is some
of those old home movies and we all know how those looked. I really hope
that 16mm will give me acceptable results, if I do decide to go with it,
since I am really eager to break the `ram' barrier.
If you know what I mean.
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I haven't used my 8mm film camera in Centuries.Hope to see more of yer Work
soon mate
>Hope to see more of yer Work soon mate
Well I have done some stuff with Listerine and RoboCop (ED-209) but these
anims are much too large for BBS(around 10-20 megs of anims for each movie)
so the only pratical way would be on video tape, unfortunately.
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How about SVHS decks with a flying erase head. I also have similar setup
and I know that 18 megs will give you something like 10 seconds of
animation. You can cut each of these shot on a video decks and edit some
sequences. But I think this will still cost you. <-and the quality will
not be so good. I guess you pay for the price.
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I haven't used any SVHS decks, all I got right now is a consumer 4head VCR,
and I have been chaining my anims on tape (I'll play 1 anim- pause the
tape- play the next one- pause again, ect…) but I think I'll go with 16mm
camera since I am only doing this at home.
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I do my Anims the same as you dude I'm using 8mm equipment tho As long as
ya get a decent Frame Rate in Realtime its not so bad I'm Seriously looking
at the Polaroid CI-5000 and Pin Registered Motion Picture Film back for
future purchase
So you use 8mm video? I am sure it looks a little better than VHS, right?
The problem I am having is `decent Frame Rate in Realtime' in some
animations and the fact that I am limited to the length of the animation
(ram limitations), I can't even think of doing 400 frame anims.
If I am going to have to spend lots of money then I will probably get a
SF-VTR and do it the `right' way, but if I go that route it won't be for a
while, not much `dinero' right now.
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8mm's SPECs are better than VHS but in the real world the difference is not
Evident looking at it,the only good thing is the 8mm holds up to multi
generations a bit better.My Next Machine will be either Hi8 or SVHS or
Possibly if I can geta good deal on a used 3/4" Umatic If yer Having
trouble with Frame Rate with DCTV anims make sure ya use 3 bit pics instead
of 4 bit pics it makes a HUGE difference in speed and no percievable
difference to picture quality.I use ADAM to convert down to 3 bit(I wish
Imagine gave ya the option of 3 or 4 bits) I have 9 megs but only a measly
512k Chip Ram and have done 600 Frame DCTV anims no problem at all.It also
depends on how BUSY the screen is druing the Animation.I try to limit
myself to 3 Starships,Stars(scrolling) possibly a planet(usually left
stationary) or a Starbase,I also tend to intersperse 2D animation in my
Animations as well,such as First showing 3 Fighters in Formation,then Show
2D "Cockpit" view out the window with Status reports then show fighters
again etc MIDGARD GRAPHICS, CREATORS OF QUALITY ANIMATION.
Speaking of 'Hi8' have you found any reasonable 'table top (i.e. NOT
camcorder)' units? I can find several Hi8 camcorders around, but have seen
only ONE desktop unit. Not that I mind using the 'corder, but it doesn't
look like a particularly good 'edit deck'
Ya might wanna take a gander at the NEW Sony CVD-1000 Hi8 machine It
supposedly can be mounted in any 5 1/4 inch Drive bay on a computer it is
made Specifically for DTV fiends According to reports I've heard Best Price
I've seen thus Far was Computability with a price of $1429 Delivered.Theres
also the EVO 9700 or 9800 I forget exact model # that has 2 Hi8 Decks in it
as well as a built in Edit Controller One Deck Is Playback only I
believe.Dunno the price on that Jammy tho Hope this Helps ya Mate MIDGARD
GRAPHICS, CREATORS OF QUALITY ANIMATION.
Peter:
> Ya might wanna take a gander at the NEW Sony CVD-1000 Hi8 machine It >
supposedly can be mounted in any 5 1/4 inch Drive bay on a computer it is
Do you know if this machine is capable of accurate single frame recording?
Regards Charles
Re: the CVD1000 and single-framing…
I called Sony on it, they said no.
Jim
I don't think the CVD-1000 is a Single Frame capable unit in the sense of
using for Animation,but I believe it is Accurate Single Frame for Editing
Peter:
> I don't think the CVD-1000 is a Single Frame capable unit in the sense of
> using for Animation,but I believe it is Accurate Single Frame for Editing
Thanks very much for the quick response. What's the difference between the
two: single frame capable for animation purposes and single frame accurate
for editing? I think this has been the source of my confusion for the last
two months. Different people have have given opposite answers to my queries
about the single frame capabilities of various machines. I look forward to
your clarifying response!
Regards Charles
Vic, Sony makes several industrial Hi8decks that are excellant, including
one specifically designed for single framing, I believe it is the EVO9650.
I sam it demoed at a show doing a great job. I use the othr sony decks
like the EVO9800 and 9700s with good results for a variety of editing
purposes, but usually edit to and single frame to Betacam, which is really
your best bet for pro work. The new 2800s are under $15,000 and make great
single framers and with built in editing, are the basis of a good editing
system with inputs of just about any kind. Expensive, yes, but less than
half the price of betacam last year. ///////e
Well I have been using 3bit-planes but I think there is a large difference
in image quality between the two. In 3bit-planes there is color banding in
gradiated areas, whereas in 4bit-planes you don't see any. I may use
4bit-plane if there is going to be minimal movements but usually that is
not the case for me. It sounds like you do anims the same as me. My latest
anim I have done is of ED-209 from RoboCop and it is a combination of about
12 anims some of which where done in D-Paint(sensors and read-outs).
Btw, What is that `MIDGARD GRAPHICS, CREATORS OF QUALITY ANIMATION'?
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