#Upgrade
59 messages in this thread
Sounds like time to unload the A2000 to me! That's awfully close 1800 to
2300 for a NEW Toaster. Think I'd probably get more out of the old A2000
to include the Toaster 2.0. Whatcha say Eric? Heard your systems fer
sale pretty cheap too!
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Well, as a previous owner, you pay $1800 and get a new Toaster board AND
new LW3.0 for your old Toaster – at a savings of $500 over what Joe First
Time Buyer would have to pay. That's not too bad . . .
Not selling the system yet. Probably will upgrade in one-two months, when
the product actually ships. Still haven't decided if I can afford to keep
my old system.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
$800 is a bit much for a product upgrade. I suspect that there will be many
that will be kissing this off and invest in a more stable environment.
The only way I would be interested in Newtek for the future is if they built a
card that handled Digital YUV. And stopped trying to sell it on all those silly
wipes that are meaningless.
I'll keep my Toaster for my kids to learn with, the real world has SGI written
all over it.
Toasted jm
That's where you're wrong. The real world can't have SGI written all over
it because the majority of the real world can't afford SGI. There's a
good reason that we have one SGI system at work but 40 Toasters.
JG
John,
You bet. I wouldn't even have considered bootstrapping a part-time VG&A
service if things started out at the SGI level. I haven't made any money
yet, but I haven't committed over half the value of a small house in it
yet either.
For people like me who hope to provide a good value of service at a
reasonable price, and maybe make enough to pay for the investment plus a
little, there is no good alternative.
With the way that the video world is changing, I can also feel good in
knowing that I'm not displacing someone else's job, either. The way that
I see it, my targeted future customers could really benefit from the
services I hope to offer; if the alternative was to use a higher priced
(overhead) service, then they probably wouldn't use it at all (as I
suspect they're doing now). Somebody has to take up the slack for all of
the smaller ventures out there.
BTW, 40 Toasters? Betcha could use the buildings electric meter for a fan
when their all running!
… Nate, Emerald Video. Flyin' IFR on AP
40 and building!
JG
John,
Hmmm, prolific, aren't they. Maybe I'll bring my kids' 2000 over into the
studio and see if they'll mate. Ya get too many there and you'll need to
get 'em safeskins. 😎
… Nate, Emerald Video. Flyin' IFR on AP
Ouch. 🙂
As your load to produce goes up you will find that more SGIs will come online,
its price is dropping fast. Soon it will be close to the price for a MAXED out
AMIGA.
In my note to Eric, I outlined my reasons for my position. I have A Toaster
which I lease it to an edit suite. On the weekends, I bring it home for my
children who are aspiring artist. It has wonderful training value.
I feel that someone as talented as Eric would be doing himself a disservice to
invest heavily in a closed end system. Sure, he may not be able to support an
SGI now, but expanding his reach to those machines is very possible in this
region. (San Francisco Bay) He is still young enough to learn anything he wants
to. Hell, I'm 45 and still learning.
I'm still young, but old enough to have bought into several
closed/dead-end systems already. (I count the Amiga as one of those,
though it has done an admirable job of keeping afloat these last 2 years.)
I don't think that throwing money into ANY platform is a good idea right
now. With the Amiga, I will continue to be able to get done what I need to
do while not spending more than I can afford to.
My TOTAL investment into my current Amiga 3000 is less than $8000 over the
last four years (I couldn't buy an Indigo four years ago). I could buy my
current setup for around $4000 today. I have made $8000-12000 in the last
year using this equipment, specifically because I can output 3-D objects
in Toaster format (if I had an Indigo, that market would not exist for me,
and I'd probably still be working 9-5 as a network admin.)
I would NOT be starting my own 3-D business if I didn't have access to a
device that was so cheap, yet provided such high quality. Had I bought
into the Mac (the only other platform I would think of buying that I could
actually afford) 4 years ago, I would still be dinking around doing cool
things, but not being able to support myself.
I have used an Indigo, and I fully understand what a quantum leap in
performance that platform is, but at this point in my career, I can't make
enough to justify the cost.
With the release of the Toaster4000, I can upgrade to a true 24bit machine
for around $4500, get the latest and greatest 3-D software, keep ALL my
other software (24bit image processing, animation, word processing, etc.),
and STILL have my old system to unload for the blow-out price of
$2000-3000. If I was to move to another platform, I could re-sell my
software, but I'd have to add another $3000-$10000 to replace my current
base of software on the new platform.
I WAS planning on moving to the Mac or other platform in the next year.
(SGI software will have to come WAY down in price, or my rates will have
to go WAY up before I think about that platform.) That decision has only
been postponed for a year, at most. In that time, I am sure I will be able
to easily recoup the cost of the upgrade, and have the satisfaction of
working in full color for the next year or so.
Oh well, maybe one of these places I work for will pick up an SGI and I
could play with one, and decide it's the machine for me. . . .(Hint, Hint.
:^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
If you Do talk one of yer Customers into an SGI get them to buy
Electrogig's 3DGO Software and Pandemonium from Xaos. From the reviews
I've seen of these Beasties I was BLOWN AWAY.
Yeah, the SGI has GREAT software.
Now, if they could cut the price by 80% I could afford it! :^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
ONLY by 80% eh? Lesse $4995 for Pandemonium minus 80% is still $1000 or
so.
Sorry John,
Our load to produce is already going way up and that is why we are adding
another 20 Toasters to our render farm. The Toaster is what made seaQuest
possible and not SGI's. There was careful consideration given to what
systems were to be used to produce the CGI work and the Toaster with new
LightWave won out…hands down.
JG
Yes, I agree that the $800 for the software alone is a little pricey.
The HAM8 animations just won't be sharp enough for use on Betacam, but the
HAM8 display will make it worth upgrading my entire system. It'll make it
feasible to do 24bit graphics work without having to cough up dough for a
Mac (yet).
SGI is nice, but I'll have to milk ICTV for ALOT more money before I can
afford one of those. (Did you see any cheap, groundbreaking HW/SW for the
SGI at NA?) (Maybe in 1-2 years, they'll be cheap/common enough for me to
afford, but I'd probably go the Mac route at that point anyway – I know
more people with high-end Macs than Indigos.)
I can see as to how lots of people are going to be turned off by having to
upgrade their platform. I don't think that it's fair to characterize ANY
platform as being 'more stable' though. At least with the Amiga, upgrading
costs far less (though you could argue that you get less too).
YUV would be nice, as I begin to notice more and more the limitations of
composite D-2. Oh well, it'll be the Toaster 5000, right?
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
With the introduction of relatively cheap D-1, D-2 may be in for a very short
run. Rumor has it that Sony will discontinue it soon.
My concern for the Amiga market is its lackluster treatment of its parent
company. Had the Toaster not appeared when it did, the Amiga might be a thing
of the past. At least here in the states.
As a Toaster owner, but not a Toaster user, I am concerned about the return on
investment. An inline upgrade costing about a 1/3rd of the original investment
is disappointing. I beleive that it should have been closer to a charge for
administration of the distribution. Less than $100.00. By charging $800 amounts
reflects hostility to the existing customer base. And the reward will be
disenchantment in its product.
Most Toaster users IMHO are probably like yourself, Eric. Very talented and of
humble means. You work hard for your income. Yet, everyday you avoid using
entrenched systems on common adaptable platforms, you will accumulate distance
from the rest of the world.
Unless Commodore begins to aggresively enter into the broader marketplace, the
return on their investment will diminish as the other charge forward. Commodore
will not continue to invest in a base that does not expand. The ones that will
be hurt the most are those who where unprepared.
I used SGI as an example of a system that is going to soon be the system of
choice. At NAB, most graphic systems were adapting to the SGI environment. Sure
the prices are high now, but an INDIGO is not much more than $15,000. Add
software in a lease package and your ready to go. Beg, borrow or steal the
downpayment and with monthly payments of $500 – $800 you have a system that can
pay for itself with as little as 2-4 days of work a month. The rest is gravy.
See ya monday!
John,
I read your argument and understand your thoughts. However, your argument
is based on what you feel the future will hold, I am not convinced that
the crystal ball you are using is in tune. Your argument assumes that the
Amiga hardware will remain in its current state. Commodore Engineering
has already stated publically that they will have a new triple-A chipset
far more powerful than the new AGA systems being released now. It also
assumes that SGI can get into the market now dominated by the Toaster.
SGI systems still live on the UNIX operating system, and do require a mage
every now and then to straighten them out.
Consider this, remmebering that Commodore needs the Amiga to survive in
order for their company to remain viable, hook in the lack of knowledge of
Silicon Graphics in getting into the market the toaster is aimed at, and
you find a future for the Amiga and the Video Toaster.
I grant you that this next year will be interesting. I also will grant
that Commodore had better spend some time re-thinking their marketing
strategies. They need to focus on the successful dealers that do exist,
make sure they continue to exist, and increase product distribution all
around. I have a number of ideas on how they can do it.
My point is–the Amiga is stable and the Video Toaster/Amiga combination
can only get less expensive as time marches on. SGI and Amiga are on the
same course, but aimed at different targets. You might be surprised how
inexpensive Toaster 2.0 systems on A2000s are selling now. Certainly
those systems remain has capable as they were the week before the
announcement of Toaster4000.
At least here, in Canada, I know distribution has increased. CBM Canada no
longer keeps distribution to CBM branches, but now distributes through
large companies such as MERISEL. The dealers get the hardware through
companies such as this and get sales aids and so forth through CBM.
User groups can also borrow A4000's and other Amiga peripherals directly
from CBM for use and demos in their group meetings.
The times, they are a changin'…
Vance
Vance,
Merisel is here in the US, but their prices keep people from ordering from
them. The User Group deal is also here in the states. Not a bad deal at
all.
However, the distribution Commodore needs is in the warehouse stores like
Comp USA.
It's funny how things can work differently. Merisel Canada must have
worked out a better deal.
Vance
I agree with your sentiments re: the Amiga market in general. It is
nowhere near as robust as other platforms.
I also understand your desire for a return on your investment, and since
you invested heavily into an 040-2000 based system, I could see as to why
you feel particularly hosed by the AGA requirement of the new software.
(Though the 3-D package will still work just fine. :^)
The $800 dollars seems a little steep, but someone else on CIS has hinted
that the upgrade includes 300 Postscript fonts. For the right person, that
alone makes the upgrade much more attractive. (Theoretically, the PS fonts
could be used for other apps also – even the IBM or Mac if they are in a
normal format.)
I don't see it as 'hostility to the customer base' as it seems more like a
desire to return on their investment. (An $800 upgrade price doesn't sound
too steep for some of the SGI software I've seen priced.)
As for the SGI being an 'entrenched' system on a 'common adaptible
platform', I think that might be bit of an overstatement. (I've worked
with them. Intimately. They are as proprietary as any Mac I've seen, if
not worse. Expansion is easy . . . for a price.)
I can't afford to pay rent right now, much less pay $500-800/mo for a
system that is going to be devalued by at least 30% in the next year.
At least with the Toaster upgrade, I KNOW I can pay it off with a couple
of jobs. Buying an Indigo, at this point in time, is an unknown quantity.
I feel it is best to continue my incrimental investment into the Amiga,
and wait 'just a little longer' before leaping to anohter platform.
You have to remember, I have been building a base of Amiga tools over the
last few years. For me, the best path is to throw a couple more grand into
the Amiga and wait a while until someone comes out with a REALLY good
multimedia machine. To throw everything away in favor of a different
platform, right now, would be folly.
In closing, I admit that I understand your POV, but my experience with
this platform has been far different. We both got hosed on the AGA dealie,
but at least I've already paid off my investments into the current
hardware. For me, the upgrade is an inexpensive solution to a number of
problems. For you, the upgrade has only served to devalue a system you are
STILL trying to justify. Sorry.
"Keep On Toastin'" :^)
Erik Flom
Wait till you see the Upgrade prices on the SGI software if you think $800
is TOO HIGH.
Most software systems that have an INLINE upgrade, charge little or nothing. If
this was a radical change, I would understand, but its not.
I guess we think differently. After Seeing LW3D 3.0 at WOCA I assumed that
if the rest of the Upgrade was as amazing it would be WELL WORTH $800.
Perhaps my Perceptions are Clouded by the fact that I DON'T own a
Toaster.
Peter,
The analogy I offer is this, you buy a car and only after purchasing the
vehicle you realise that it is unable to get to highway speed. Sure it can do
50 MPH and is just fine for going to the market. But you need to get downtown
in a hurry. Then after putting up with this for a year, the manufacturer says
for $800 we'll take the governor off and let this puppy burn.
That's my delema. I got a 68040 last winter and was told that it was the
fastest, neatest top dog in the lot. HA! But only after I cough up another
$800. I've lost about all interest in the product.
Wanna buy a used toaster. It's only been driven by a little ole' lady on
Sundays.
Sorry to hear yer unhappy with yer Toaster. I'm sure you won't have much
trouble unloading it. Unfortunately I am unable to afford any purchase
over $800 at the moment unless I take a Loan. Thanx for the offer tho.
The offer was given with "tongue in cheek". I have 3 budding artists who may be
able to take care of their dear ole' dad. I bring the Amiga home on weekends
for their education and amusment.
Nah – its more like trading in last years 'vette for this years. In point
of fact, they don't HAVE to upgrade you. They could just say, "buy a new
one, sucker!" Sorta like the way IBM does it, ya know? ;^}
wmc – via Autopilot!
And of course, you know what the difference between a used car salesman and a
computer salesman?
The used car salesperson KNOW he's lying……..
Now, John . . . .
You'll be making at least $1200 (80hrs@$15/hr) renting it out for
rendering time on this project I'm doing for ICTV. Subtract $800 for the
upgrade and you're still $400 ahead. (You're not giving them the rendering
time for free are you? :^)
Sorry you had to pay the price for being an early adopter. (I was pretty
bitter about not being able to use the Toaster in my A3000 when it was
announced, but eventually I was able to solve the problem . . .)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Of course I will charge for any rendering done on Mia Amiga. We probably will
spliting between all three machines. So, with the new math, $1200/3 = $400 ea.
….. Doesn't come quite close enough, eh?
This SIG needs a little controversy now and then. It's been some time since
Wayne Cole expressed his dissatisfaction.
Real life has lots of Ying & Yang.
Who's next?
jm
PS Are you goin' to be ready this week?
Awww S*(t!!! NOW what did I do???
wmc – via Autopilot!
>>>Awww S*(t!!! NOW what did I do???
You have been somewhat reserved lately. Remember back in December (or there
abouts) when Newtek fell off the edge of the earth. I thought you had some
interesting comments.
Uh, think again.
I'M charging $1200 for 80 hrs rendering @ $15/hr. (The price quoted was
for a SPECIFIC amount of rental time on my machine.) I ain't splittin'
that with no one. :^)
If you want controversy, keep an eye on the thread about the Toaster-less
hacked version if LW 1.0 . . . I think it's going to heat up soon. :^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
P.S. Just rendering test images in the background – in case you were
curious as to why I wasn't working on the arcade. :^)
If I paid 25,000.00 for modelling and rendering software I would expect free
upgrades for at least a few millenia! Come on, get real. The Lightwave
upgrade ALONE is well worth the 800.00 bucks. Its not the cost of the upgrade.
Its the cost of doing business that counts.
Jim Roof
I remain unconvinced.
Are you kidding, the LW upgrade alone is worth the upgrade cost!
-Jonathan
Now that the Toaster has Actually gone Hollywood, the s/w upgrades are
worth Double?
From Hollyweird….
….John
Would you care to elaborate? Otherwise your statement lacks substance.
Just to jump in here, if you think "$800 is a bit much for a product upgrade"
and "the future has SGI written all over it", I'd suggest that you haven't
checked out what 3D software for the SGI costs…
Regards,
Trent Johnson CFRN TV Edmonton, Canada
I have been working around SGI for about 6 years and have seen the direction of
their efforts. I have no doubt about the future. I plan to be there. Will you?
I wrote a nice long message to you. You didn't respond to me — why not?
Mark,
I cheched my stash and could not find your letter. Perhaps it scrolled off the
system before I logged back on. I only hit CIS on occasion, sometimes only
weekly. If you still have (and it remains timely) could you E-MAIL it to me.
jm
Sigh,
It is gone. I wrote a long note explaining why I thought you were wrong
about SGI taking over the Amiga/VideoToaster Marketplace.
🙂
>>It is gone. I wrote a long note explaining why I thought you were wrong
>>about SGI taking over the Amiga/VideoToaster Marketplace.
I never felt that the SGI would "take over" toaster marketplace. My
intent was a suggestion to Eric that his talents (now don't start
blushing, Eric) would be better served if he were to look foward to
the opportunities that the other platforms offer. The prices for all
of the popular platforms are way down and offer a better investment
of time and money. The Toaster is not a popular platform in the USA.
Granted it is a fine graphics machine with some good video
applications, but the chance of Commodore making a killing with it is
long since past. Timing is everything.
The SGI equipment is now in a position to pressure the MAC/PC
platform. And thats the way it should be. The people who use the
equipment can't stand still and wait for the good fairy to show up.
She ain't commin'. She's rendering meg-a-meg files in minutes.
Where are things going to be in 5 years, in 10 years. Using
Commodore's past as a glimpse of the future, one should ask where the
C-64 and C-128s are today. ABANDONED.
There are no right opinions or wrong opinions, just opinions.
Well, I disagree about your assessment of the Toaster market. From
my point of view, it's wildly popular.
Equipment prices might be going down, but software prices aren't.
The lowest cost SGI box doesn't even come with a development
environment. You can bet it's going to cost an arm and a leg for the
high level graphics rendering software, not to mention the modeling
software.
>Well, I disagree about your assessment of the Toaster market. From
my >point of view, it's wildly popular.
Then why can't I run Lotus, Exel, 3D Studio, etc. on the Amiga? It's
like being the most popular guy in high school. Move to the
university and that popularity doesn't carry a whole lot of weight.
>Equipment prices might be going down, but software prices aren't.
The >lowest cost SGI box doesn't even come with a development
environment. You >can bet it's going to cost an arm and a leg for
the high level graphics >rendering software, not to mention the
modeling software.
Take the blinders off, Steve, its a vastly different world out there.
While the SGI equipment is nice, and the software certainly is
impressive SGI will never address the market that the Video Toaster
does. The whole point of the Video Toaster was not to say it is the
most 'technically impressive' hardware in existance, nor was it to
say that it was the final solution to video. What it is, and you
can't deny this, is an affordable video solution for everyone who has
a semi-professional/professional wish to do video. This is a market
SGI cares little about, and can never address.
SGI can not produce a machine like the Amiga. That is the key. A
UNIX-based workstation can only be cost reduced so far. SGI is a
company built on the large profits on single units of sales. They as
a company can not change into the company that would be required to
address PC-based desktop video market. This is not a detraction from
SGI. In fact, SGI has realized that there is a tremendous amount of
money to be made in the 'hi-end' of professional video. A market
that the toaster can not begin to touch–at least today.
While the argument that Erik's talents may well be better served on
the SGI based hardware is probably true, it is also true that he
would not get the attention he has gotten on that platform due to the
number of 'big ducks' already in the SGI pond. The neat thing about
his involvement with the Amiga is that he can establish a name for
himself "here" and move there with "crediability".
I do think that Commodore's downsizing and hopeful new market focus
will turn them into a 'solution-based' vertical market supplier
company. This can only be good for Toaster owners. It may not bode
well for the average Amiga owner, however that is a discussion for
another time. 🙂
SGI doesn't care about the Toaster market. NewTek can't reach that
market–yet. Price of hardware and software is the key to the
toaster's currnet success. As time marchs on it will only be less
expensive for NewTek and SGI.
Mark,
I agree with almost everything you say…except that the Toaster cannot
begin to touch the high end today…
It's already happened. The Toaster is being chosen more and more in High
End Hollywood productions. seaQuest and Viper are two examples with more
coming…
JG
>While the SGI equipment is nice, and the software certainly is
impressive >SGI will never address the market that the Video Toaster
does. The whole >point of the Video Toaster was not to say it is the
most 'technically >impressive' hardware in existance, nor was it to
say that it was the final >solution to video. What it is, and you
can't deny this, is an affordable >video solution for everyone who
has a semi-professional/professional wish >to do video. This is a
market SGI cares little about, and can never >address.
Partially true, however SGI recently announced an intention of placing
a SGI machine within the reach of the average DTP.
>SGI can not produce a machine like the Amiga. That is the key. A
>UNIX-based workstation can only be cost reduced so far. SGI is a
company >built on the large profits on single units of sales. They
as a company >can not change into the company that would be required
to address PC-based >desktop video market. This is not a detraction
from SGI. In fact, SGI >has realized that there is a tremendous
amount of money to be made in the >'hi-end' of professional video. A
market that the toaster can not begin >to touch–at least today.
In fact, SGI is adapting to the marketplace. Sure you can spend a
zillion dollars for a high end SGI. But that little Indigo packs a
wallop that will challange most of your arguments.
>While the argument that Erik's talents may well be better served on
the >SGI based hardware is probably true, it is also true that he
would not get >the attention he has gotten on that platform due to
the number of 'big >ducks' already in the SGI pond. The neat thing
about his involvement with >the Amiga is that he can establish a name
for himself "here" and move >there with "crediability".
When Erik chooses to move to that pond, there will be lots of room for
him. He'll be a big duck soon.
>I do think that Commodore's downsizing and hopeful new market focus
will >turn them into a 'solution-based' vertical market supplier
company. This >can only be good for Toaster owners. It may not bode
well for the average >Amiga owner, however that is a discussion for
another time. 🙂
Too little, Too Late. . . Commodore had the market in their hands when
the bought AMIGA. They are an unimaginative company with too much
ego.
>SGI doesn't care about the Toaster market.
I wouldn't find that statement to comforting if you have looked at the
direction SGI has taken in the last 10 years.
>NewTek can't reach that market–yet. Price of hardware and software >is the
key to the toaster's current success.
I can't argue with that.
>As time marchs on it will only be less expensive for NewTek and SGI.
Hardly, NewTek is already using the less expensive direction. My guess
is that as long as the toaster remains composite 4:1:1 its future
will remain in doubt.
Thank you for the stimulating discussion.
Have you looked into the pricing in SGI software? Sure the hardware
prices have come down, but many s/w packages are in the $1k-$5k range.
-Jonathan
Actually, some are in the 25K to 32K range! That's what I hear Wavefront
Technologies high end packages go for. Unreal.
Jim Roof
I will, but I'll catch the SGI bus at the NEXT stop, thank you. :^)
Erik
Best of luck, John.
Regards,
Trent
Thats why Amiga artists DON'T run SGI's. The availability of CHEAP state
of the art s/w h/w for Video and Animation CGI is the Amigas strong point.
Even the big boys are starting to realize this.
….John
$9200 for ElectroGigs 3DGO 3D software for the SGI. This isn't really
directed to you sorry Trent.
No problem, Peter!
Trent
Same here. I hate to act on rumors, but the ol' 2000's on it's way out
I'm afraid. I think I'd better sell it now while I still can.
The T4000 though – now that's going to be a chunk of money – Toastered and
all. Plus, on top of that, a SFR to make it all worthwhile *Argh!*
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Oh well, I spent the big bucks for a 3000, and am in about the same boat
as 2000 owners. :^(
As for the upgrade: I hear from NewTek that the upgrade info pack all
Toaster owners will receive in the near future will contain information
from C= about a power-up program for us Toaster owners. (Don't know if
it'll be a deal, but it can't hurt.)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
P.S. I have a Personal SFC I'd be willing to sell. Cheap. :^)