#What software is next?
30 messages in this thread
I'm finally supposed to be able to pick up my new Toaster system Thursday
afternoon and I'll be spending the next who-knows-how-long figuring out what
I'm doing and where I'm going with it. But I'm already wondering what software
I'm going to soon discover that I MUST have.
Beyond the Toaster software and all the other basic stuff that comes with an
intitial setup, what should I be looking to buy? I know that I'm buying some
sort of "utilities pack" with my system, but I'm more interested in the
software that I'll need to amaze my friends and clients. What are the things
you would recommend as the first purchases beyond the basics? What are the
things you've found are absolutely essential that you wish you'd found earlier?
In case it matters, I will have a Toaster 4000 with Amiga 4000, AmiLink machine
control, 3/4 SP decks, TBC IV (that name doesn't sound exactly right, but I
can't remember for sure) and a Cooper audio mixer. Also, I should probably tell
you that the equipment will be used for TV commercials and short political
pieces rather than for heavy animation.
I'll appreciate any input you have. Thanks.
David
YOU MUST BUY:
1) Art Department Professional (ADPro) 2) D-Paint 4, and or Brillance* 3)
Maybe Morph+ 4) A real time paint board (24 bit) with paint software, such as
the Impluse Firecracker, the Retina, the Picasso II.
If you have the latter two of the above boards, you might also want a larger
monitor… a 17", 19", or 21"!!!
Any Questions?
GLEN
Actually, he'd be far better off with Imagemaster R/t, plus he'd spend
less money. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Depends on whether you measure in productivity or just price. With
ImagemasterRT you require a computer to use as a document reader, and it
is not as quick or easy to use as a document with a good TOC and index.
Also the OL doc has lots of language that is not directly devoted to
operational reference that is usually not desireable in OL reference
material which increases the wading factor.
With ADPro, I can take the document home, to lunch, to the beach etc and
figure out the how I'm gonna set up that next killer sequence/image.
Can't do that with IM since th chord on the reader is not long enough
:^}.
NOTE to Glen: these are my OPINIONS, (there is no absolute answer on this
issue) and you should actually try them both out. The facility of one
versus the other is mainly a function of work style. Some like trial and
error (aka creative play) and others like to get directly to what they
have already seen in their mind's eye. The latter group will usually have
the process planned out before starting, while the former play until they
get something they like. The latter will use a document in off-line mode
more, while the former usually aschew documents altogether. That, in my
mind is the real issue on these two packages as they both can get you from
A to B with quality results and both products are well supported in terms
of tech support. ADPro is better supported by third party products and
does have the ability to render direct to the Toaster. (IM doesn't does
it? Haven't checked recently.)
wmc – via Autopilot!
"Depends on whether you measure productivity or just price" No it doesn't.
I fyou measure price, we win. Period. If you measure by capabilities, we
win. period. Now, if _all_ you do is use the features in AdPro, and you
already know how, then yep, you'd suffer a productivity hit if you tried
to change to IM. But if you have use for the _tons_ of other capabilties
in IM that simply _aren't there in ANY form_ inside AdPro, regardless of
version, then your productivity gets hit no matter if you know AdPro, or
not, just because you chose it. further, if you do NOT already know AdPro,
and are just choosing one or the other to begin with, then You'd be much
better of with IM R/t, most especially the current 1.50 version as it's
considerably easier to use than earlier versions. It's not at all the way
you made it sound in your message.
"not as easy to use as a document with a good TOC and INDEX"
Are you kidding me? Have you _looked_ at the IM R/t docs??? The
Imagemaster R/t docs have large, detailed TOC's _and_ indexes _and_ are
context sensitive – and are a darned sight easier to use than paper
versions of the same as it "gets you where you're going" in the docs
faster than you can do it on paper more often than not. Then there's the
find… which has no parallel in paper docs, and comprises a user
definable, persistant index for some situations. As for wading factor,
could be, but I disagree, personally – it depends on how you read it, I
believe.
Re paper to home, lunch etc, easy: print it out – right ther ein the menu
– you DO have a printer, don't you? :^)
No, IM doesn't directly render to the Toaster at this time. It may,
shortly, if certain issues work out well. Despite the current lack of
direct writes to the Toaster's buffer, you can still "get there from here"
simply by using an intermediate file – it's less convenient, but not in
any way impractical.
OTOH, it does much more on many, many fronts than AdPro does. Some things,
like rendering into Amiga modes such as 16 color palette mapped, it does
_so_ much better than AdPro that you're pretty well shooting yourself in
the foot if you use AdPro instead of Imagemaster: Unless you _prefer_ a
poorer quality image, that is. IM's always had more power than AdPro, and
if the past development rates of both companies are any indication, it
probably always will.
As for Adpro being "better supported by third party products", yeah, it
is, and it needs it a lot more than we do since IM has much of that power
built right in from the start – we don't _need_ third party products to be
viable the way AdPro does. In fact, more AdPro "support" from ASDG
themselves like the extra formats you have to buy, the morphing that's NOT
included, are in many cases included in the basic Imagemaster price. In
some cases, like comparing "Fred" with IM's built in filmstrip, catalog,
and graphic buffer (postage stamp or "tile") selection powerhouse of UI
capability, both packages offer functionality that _appears_ similar but
in fact is integrated in IM and external and mcu, much more limited inthe
AdPro package.
ASDG's strength has never been general capability: AdPro has been
supremely reliable in past releases, and ASDG is a marketing powerhouse:
they've done what needed to be done to convince magazines, dealers and
endusers that they're #1- just like WIndows, #1 isn't "best", it's just #1
in sales. In some cases, what ASDG has done to stay on top been good
stuff. Like MorphPlus. Like the tech support they provide. Like the basic
very high quality of the product. But some of what they've done has been
otherwise, as you probably well know. Examples? You're a dealer: Remember
the fax ASDG sent to it's dealers with that outragous statement about IM's
NTSC conversions, how AdPro's was better because it "used units recognized
by broadcast engineers"? It's a fact that it does indeed use those units.
However, it's _also_ a fact that IM's NTSC conversions are head and
shoulders more effective, result in better looking NTSC output, handle far
more sophisticated color changes and in fact do far more than just limit
the final output levels of the image, as compared to the AdPro tool being
compared at that time (and for all I know, still). So, you get your
choice: use ApPro, and get that warm and fuzzy feeling of "knowing your
units", or use IM and simply get a better NTSC image as a result. That's a
very good example of some of ASDG's "other" techniques for staying on top.
So's the time they poked Cinemorph in the eye using a bogus comparison
they dreamed up against a half-blind beta tester of the GVP product.
And you say?
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben, Just to add to your comments, two features which IM R/t has which I can't
understand why ASDG refuses to put in their product, and I find are absolutely
indispensible are:
1) Definable operation areas, and
2 UNDO!!!!
I own and use both products, and the only advantage I have ever found to AdPro
is it's quicker at most of its processes than IM R/t (as I understand it,
that's because they have some algorithm tricks they can make use of due to the
fact that they don't allow processing on less than the whole image).
I end up using AdPro when I'm doing straight forward processing on whole images
(scaling, compositing, color adjustments). If I have to do anything more
"artistic", or if I have to process only parts of the image, or if I have to
morph, its IM R/t no question.
Terry Tabor
Thanks for your comments, Terry.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Wayne,
Good point! You must make up your own mind! I often say," Bring me a COKE,"
when I am thinking, "Bring me a softdrink."
I only wish all companies supplied users with a simple copy or a "work once or
twice" test disk. I have shot a bundle of $$$ on testing software I can't
take back!
A good program, besides an installer, would be a deinstaller… one that a
computer store clerk could tell if you actually have deleted a program off a
hard disk that you will never use again!
GLEN
Ben, Explain! Just curious!
GM
Glen,
Explain, what? I'm unsure to what you're referring…
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Explain why I should use ImageMaster and not AdPro or MOrph+, or any other
product from ASDG.. a company porting to Mac, SGI, etc. WHY?
GM
So, ASDG's porting to the Mac, SGI… So? We ported to Windows 3.1, a much
more viable environment. <shrug> What's that got to do with Amiga
software, I ask you? Perhaps new features from the new platforms? YES! The
latest Imagemaster has multiple backports of the new Windows features
we've created… so, where's ER for the Amiga? Hmmm? Black Belt Systems
has released two new products – whole products, not upgrades – for the
Amiga in the past three months, and massively upgraded Imagmaster both in
features and interface – _twice_… ASDG's upgraded AdPro's look and feel,
added a few features. Whee. :^) On to more important questions…
"Why use Imagemaster R/t instead of AdPro or MorphPlus?"
Adpro, the short version: Want to increase the sharpness of JUST a facial
feature, such as eyelashes? Adpro can't – it can sharpen the entire image,
but not areas. IM has _extrordinary_ area selection tools that work with
everything, from sharpening to swirling to gaussian blur to motion efects
to… you get the idea. :^) Need to undo a change? Adpro's got this little
limitation in that area, y'see… we don't. Want to perform any one of a
hundred or so operations that AdPro doesn't even _have_, much less have
for the entire image, such as complex camer flares or annular rings?
Imagemaster's the answer. Want to render to Amiga display modes and get
the best possible image? Imagemaster. Tests (not just ours, either) have
-repeatedly_ shown that ApRo's palette picking runs a poor second to
Imagemasters. Need a lossless, high compression format? many people (such
as doctors, scientists) need image data compression but can't take the hit
that JPEG puts on the data integrity… Imagemaster comes with TRIM, which
has an _average_ efficiency on scanned 24-bit data of over twice that if
24bit IFF (IE, convert 10 megs of 24bit IFF and you get 5 megs of files,
and lose _nothing_ from the images. IM has built in sequencing,
filmstrips, etc, etc, etc. There's more… lots and lots and lots more.
Imagemaster is a more powerful product. But if your needs are simplistic,
then AdPro may be entirely sufficient for you.
MorphPlus: Imagemaster has a much better user interface than Morphplus. We
invented the onion skin interface, use it, and also have dual window
interface. We also have organic morphing paths – Morphplus does not.
Morphplus has masking that we do not. Depending on just what you're trying
to accomplish, one or the other could make the difference. Both products
produce similar output, although if you're rendering down to Amiga
displays, Imagemaster's IFF creation is far superior so that the morph you
made will look better simply because it's rendered better in many cases.
Nothing stopping you from morphing with MorphPlus and using IM to render
images, of course. :^)
Those are some of the reasons why. There are many more.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Just jumping in here.
Ben, I am not one to argue with you about the complete host of creative tools
Image Master has to offer, but in order to let everyone else know what a
powerful tool you have, when will you guys put out a demo video which covers
all of the wild things R/T can do?
You guys are in the video/image business and no matter how great a product is,
you still have to let the public know about it. ASDG contiously sends out
video demos of their programs (I personally have received three within one
year) and they obviously have an impact.
I think that the Apprentice videos are a good start, but they are targeted more
towards people who already have Image Master.
I have no doubt that your market share will significantly increase if you put
together a 5-10 minute demo showing all the image manipulation, morphing and
other Unique features that only Image Master has. With the power of your
program, a simple video will make believers out of everyone, and make you guys
a couple of dollars richer.
So what do you say?
Yep, it's a very good notion. It's a matter of having enough time to get
such a thing done, not to mention someone with the skills. No one at the
company is a video type – we're all programmers, engineers and such.
Further, everyone has more than enought to do, which I suppose is no
surprise, eh?
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
>>No one at the company is a video type – we're all programmers,
engineers and such.<<
So why not ask your CUSTOMERS to provide samples of THEIR work?
Oh, we do – and a large number of them say yes; very few come through.
Still, we have some examples of customer work, some even from major motion
pictures and so on. But there's more to a good demo than just a few clips,
don't you think? Good voice over, a consistant, directed story and punch
line, high quality video (unfortunately, much of what we have from
customers is 2nd – or worse – generation video).
There are examples on things like the Amiga gang video, in the libs, and
so on. It would be quite an effort to pull all that together into one
whole. We'd like to – but I don't see it happening in the short term.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
If IMAGE MASTER can do the following, you have sold me. I want to be able to
do that "SPY Movie thing" where I take an image, crop in a a part of the image,
bring up the detail of the crop to full screen resolution, do all the steps
again, and continue to pull detail out of this digital zoom.
GM
Well, we can certainly take the image, arbitrarily crop, zoom (with
scaling or subsampling, your choice), and repeat that process as many
times or as "deep" as you like. However, this process is bound by the laws
of physics… there's only so much image data in there, and at some point,
you're going to be looking at a blur. The better the image, the more you
can do this, of course. But you CAN do it. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
PMFJI,
I think IM can do this very easily. You just start with a hi-res image
(2kx3k +) load it into IM then render a 24-bit or what ever image to
another buffer. Zoom render, Zoom render etc. etc.
Not sure if this is the SPY thing, but I'm sure Ben will tell you. :^)
….John
Sounds like you're looking to do something like Harrison Ford did in
"Bladerunner" I'm not with Black belt but I do know it is possible to do
just what you asked. The initial image needs to be fairly high rez tho to
get good results. First Load it into IM of course, then use the Grid
Overlay, or not, I'd use the grid as it looks a bit more impressive in my
mind. Then simply use one of IM's rectangular or other shaped area
selectors and simply "Zoom in", then to pull out the detail use the
Sharpen operations. Of course this won't work so well with a 736*482 rez
image blowing up a portion of it to that size. But if you use a 736*482
rez image and Display it in IM as a Low Rez Ham image you may get decent
results.
Hope this is coherent for you.
Glen,
yes, ImageMaster will do this Blade Runner-type image enhancement very well, if
you start with a high-resolution scan, so that the last zoom still shows some
detail instead of a blurry mess. (this enhancement gadget is _science-fiction_,
remember. You can't expect your computer to come up with missing information on
its own.) So you take a sharp 35mm snapshot, have the negative scanned at a
service bureau, save it as a TIFF (I guess — ImageMaster will handle several
IBM and Mac formats) and bring the image to your Amiga.
By the way, the Black Belt BBS has a macro called "Zoomulator" which will
automate this zoom-in effect for you.
Blaq!
Ben, you're a rock!
I come back after a 97 day hiatus and find you here, writing lengthy,
informative replies and never seeming to run out of steam.
I saw a great write-up for Imagemaster R/t in a recent issue of VTU
magazine. Looked great!
I hope to get the change together to upgrade to the latest IM R/t as soon
as possible. I've been pretty sick for awhile, and am just getting
treatment now. I hope to get back to normal soon.
I blew my upgrade $$$ on Imagine 3.0. It's the next best thing to
Lightwave, even though I'm only at 2.9. Waiting for the mail man to hurry
up and get me my disks. *B^/
I have spent many a month dragging my jaw on the rug because I'm blown
away by the things I've been able to do with IM R/t and my Imagine
renderings.
My boss has started a video series project that I'm doing the effects for.
So far, it's been a hoot!
Anyhow, will ttyl. *B^)
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Black Belt Systems' Imagemaster R/t!
Welcome back, Vance!
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Thanks, Ben!
Is BBS hanging tight with the Amiga until official word comes out about
CBM? I wonder if CEI would be able to handle the task of running the
show?
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Black Belt Systems' Imagemaster R/t!
Vance,
Our position is simple: CBM hasn't done anything worthwhile in over a
year. In the past year, they've sold very few computers (as a percentage
of the installed base) and as a result, haven't affected our operations
particularly. Now that they have screeched to a halt either temporarily or
permanently, the _only_ reason we see for things to change will be the
reaction of the userbase. So for the time being, there are no plans here
to slow or discontinue Amiga product development.
Should the Amiga _market_ dry up and blow away, which is far different
from the supply of Amigas going away, then as a matter of business we
would be forced to back off. My hope is that this will not happen.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Glen,
Can you tell if the 24 bit boards you mentioned here are accelerated?
Also, can they drive a large MultiSync type monitor, such as an NEC 5fg,
without the need for a flicker fixer or whatever….
How much are they?
Thanks,
GT
Greg, From what I know, all the boards like the Picasso II are based on VGA
chips, I believe. (Picasso II, the GVP Spectrum,etc) The only one that isn't
is the Retina. So far, from what I have been able to find out, the Retina
offers the biggest screen rez with the most color(24bit). All of the cards
come with (very close to) real time paint packages. I don't know if they are
accelerated or not, but most have fast displays.
To answer your specific monitor question… well, I don't know. I have been
told that most come with a bag full of pre written code to make specific
monitors work with out any problem.
I know they should all work with IDEK 19" and 21" monitors, but my question is,
are those monitors any good?
I guess we could start sending messages to the DKB folks for an 040 based 3000
X 3000 line 24 bit super realtime card for under a thousand dollars! That
would work for me just fine!
GLEN
Greg,
Also, the price question…
EGS SPECTRUM (GVP) under $540.00 PICASSO II w/1 meg under $450.00 Retina 2meg
under $490.00 Retina 4meg under $560.00 Firecracker 2meg @ $500.00
By the way, these are street prices from Amiga World… the Amiga Super Ad
Shopping Showcase in a handy magazine format!
GLEN
If you get AdPro, make sure you get the latest version. I hear it has a
much better interface than 2.0.
GT
You might want to pickup Imagemaster R/T for it's image manipulation and
it's morph abilities.