#Bowling Pin rendering
33 messages in this thread
Yeah, I haven't figured Real 3D out yet: They keep talking about all
these wonderful things you can do ("Drop a glass on the floor and watch it
shatter!") but I haven't found any "brittleness" component for objects, so
I dunno…. (OTOH, I was only talking to a local chap who had just
started using Real3D V.2, and the manual leaves a LOT to be desired….)
BTW, about how long does it take for LW3 — I _presume_ you're using a
T4000 — to render a frame? I'm trying to learn Playmation at the moment
(it has a REAL simple User Interface, which is great because I'm a Real
Simple User), and I put together an animation (of the provided "horse",
which has 17-18 hierarchived "segments", or body parts, of which 15 move
in the "choreography"): I told it to "render" (CLI command for anything
other than low-res), 732×480, 24-bit IFF but without anti-aliasing — and
it took FORTY MINUTES PER FRAME!!!! Is this NORMAL??.. What the devil is
it going to be when I add BACKGROUNDS, and PROPS, and SCENERY?…
"3D Construction Company"; what a GREAT name…. 😎
Alas, I'm still awaiting my Toaster and 4000! :^(
LW3.0 _seems_ to be about 2-4 times faster than the old LW, but I haven't
had a chance to do any direct comparisons. (Maybe if they decide to start
shipping the product. . . .)
I haven't used Playmation, so I don't know how long it should take, but if
you're calculating shadows, reflaction, or refraction, or if you've got
the anti-aliasing set too high, you can really slow down an image. A
simple object from their library, without any of the above options would
easily take less than 10 minutes, and closer to 2-3 minutes.
OTOH, it took some 7-8 hours to render the Bowling Pin at 752×480 on a
28MHz 040. I used 3 light sources, and traced shadows & reflections, with
High anti-aliasing and full motion blur.
Thanks for the compliment on the name! (I was trying to give a sort of
industrial look & feel for my company.)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Seven to eight HOURS???? FIVE DAYS per VIDEO SECOND???? Doing NOTHING
ELSE with the computer, a minute of video will take almost a YEAR????
Gee, if I REALLY want to do that TWO HOUR MOVIE I've got written, I'd
better get BUSY, huh?…
The Ancient Renderer (%^6}}} (LONG gray beard)
No, you just get 100 Toasters and it takes you 2.4 HOURS PER VIDEO SECOND
(given 8 hours/frame/machine) of finished animation.
That comes out to about 10 seconds per day.
You could get your 2hr movie done in just under 2 years. :^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
P.S. At 8 hours per frame, you could render completely photorealistic
imagery.
Oh, great, NOW you're telling me I've gotta win the LOTTO….
I'd probably have to WORK the 96 years to be able to afford all that
Toast….
Oh well, I do have a couple'a short projects…. Maybe if I can get
one of them on Image Union, dupe a few thou' and sell 'em at 10 bucks a
pop…. (And keep on buying them Lotto tickets, right?) 😉
For a hundred Toaster systems, I think Lotto might be your best bet. :^)
It was a valid question, so I thought I'd give a (sort of) viable
solution. (BTW, $400K is lunch money when it comes to feature films. :^)
You know, I saw one of those 'Lotto Picker' programs around here the other
day . . . .
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
>Seven to eight HOURS???? FIVE DAYS per VIDEO SECOND???? Doing NOTHING
>ELSE with the computer, a minute of video will take almost a YEAR????
Well sometimes Erik gets a little carried away. :^)
When you are just doing 1 still then you could add as many things as you
can to make it look good since 7-8 hours rendering isn't much time.
<<< Tony D. Tracer >>>
Well, I just spent 22 days to get 22 seconds of animation in which the
motion on the last 2 seconds was not acceptable. Since the object motion
is splined, it can'f just be "fixed" in the last 2 seconds. The whole
thing has to be done again.
For serious animation work, if you want to have a computer for your own
use (instead of a rendering program's use) better get a second machine.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne:
If it'll work, it's possible to lock down the motion path and then edit it
it beyond that point. . .
It might be possible to salvage some of the animation, and then tack the
new stuff on. . .
Just create 2 successive keyframes at the latest acceptable point in your
original scene, then modify it from that point on. (This works for most
cases where a small change needs to be made in some part of the path. If
the change is too radical, you're probably hosed. :^(
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Thanks for the suggestion, but I tried that. The "bad motion" is at
the end of a spline (last point with high tension, linear to next
point) and anything I do just before or just after affects positions
from frame 600 al the way back to 240.
I just bit the bullet and set it up over again changed some images,
combined two image maps that were overlaid before and cut rendering
time in half. So, qwith all the "might as well … while we're at
it…" the sequence is going to be much better anyway, so its not a
total loss.
However, one lesson re-learned and reinforced – do lores (converted
to anim5) test animation to check motion against bacground
objects/images that don't show well or at all in the wireframe
preview to avoid this situation in the first place!
Too bad you had to re-render so much of it, but at least you were able to
make some changes and ended up with a better product.
I, too, have found it very useful to create preview anims. And at LoRes,
you can usually get it done within a day.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
I could live with a day per video second … at least for now <g>….
I'm aware that I have a long learning curve ahead of me, and I'm not
altogether sure that Playmation will be the only animation software I use;
it's just that, at the moment, I'm intrigued by this "spline-based patch
modeler", which can do some really-quirky things with surfaces; that, and
the fact that I haven't seen any other software designed for _figure_
animation (as opposed to moving rigid things like bowling pins): I have a
concept based on Jonn Serrie's _Gentle:_The_Night_ in mind, for which any
animation package would be able to do just about everything (and Aladdin's
"gaseous" model would be a tremendous help) — EXCEPT animate the "Space
Bird" in the "flexible metal" design I envision.
Just wait until I start asking all the REALLY dumb questions, like "How
do I tape this shlock?" and "Why CAN'T I stretch a Lo-Res picture to fill
a Video Overscan frame?" (I may even come up with dumber ones than that;
give me a little time….)
Stretching Lo-Res to Oscan is not a problem with ADpro. ImageFX and
ImageMaster probably allow that too. The real fun in doing so is
trying to remember the aspect ration adjustments so round things
continue to look round etc.
As far as getting things to tape:
Single frame controller and single frame accurate deck (~$4,000 or
used ~$2000 if you ca locate a 3/4" or 3/4" SP)
or Personal Animation Controller (DPS) (~$4000 by the time you get
their card and ad a dedicated 1 gig IDE drive)
Render to disk and send the imgages to service beaureau (Ithinkthe
going rate is $0.35 per frame. Animate at 15 fps to save money and
stillbe acceptabel for mo st scenes.)
Get a DCTV and software to convert Playmation renderings to DCTV,
then output DCTV Animation to any video recorder (as I understand
DCTV plays its anims at 30 fps) Assuming you have a VCR, this option
probably will end up costing you $600 in HW and SW.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Ok. That's 1700.00 for the card and 2300.00??? for a one gig? The
only drive that's approved at present is a 540 meg Seagate that's
about 900.00. I was quoted 2600.00 for the setup with the 540 meg.
Just a note here, you lose a good bit of quality when doing real time
digitizing with this device. It looks ok, but you can see artifacting
along edges of high contrast. You might not see it at first, but
once you do it gets pretty noticeable. However, the animations I've
seen look much better than the real time grabs.
I was going by the $1995 list plus a 1 gig IDE of $1900 list. With tax (we
don't buy mail order do we?? And if we live in California we obey the
law and pay California the sales tax for all that sruffwe buy out of
state, don't we… :^} thats about $4500.
That's about list of a JVC BRS-422 and PSFC, I believe.
wmc – via Autopilot!
I have a local dealer who will sell the animation board for 1695.00 and a
540meg Seagate IDE (supposed to be the only one tried and true right now) for
about 900.00. So actually, one could get into the thing for about 2800.00 in
this neck of the woods (Atlanta). i have a Panasonic AG7750 that might find
its neck on the chopping block if I am convinced.
Jim Roof
Whoa!!! You'll still need the 7750 to record the things when you play them
back from disk. You maybe able to sell your singleframe controller but
not the deck.
Note that the prices I quoted were retail list (no one pays it but it is
good for comparison). A good sf accurate deck from a volume dealer will
run about 3k-3200 unless you get used 3/4 gear. Probably halve that
figure.
BTW, can you tell the Personal AR to start at a given time code? (e.g can
you use it as a source for insert editing? Don't recall from NAB – too
much of a crowd when I went by there – could really see it or ask any
questions)
wmc – via Autopilot!
>A good sf accurate deck from a volume dealer will run about 3k-3200
>unless you get used 3/4 gear. Probably halve that figure.
I have thought about getting a used SF accurate deck but never knew where
to look for them, where can I find one? If I ever do get a used one, how
much does it generaly cost to rebuild one?
<<< Tony D. Tracer >>>
I would probably haul me and my box to a decent suite with Betacam SP and dump
everything to tape in about 15 minutes! That's 6 minutes of animation going to
tape in real time. If I did need a deck I could get a 1970 or something.
Wayne,
Imagemaster does do expansion (and reduction) with proprietary scaling
code. Also, it maintains the aspect ratio(s) of scaled items so you don't
have to worry about it. It even maintains the aspect ratio display
on-screen and also compensates for linear monitor distortions you may have
introduced with your width and height controls.
FYI. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
No, no, I was only KIDDING….
Hi, my name is Kent. I'm kind of new to posting on Compuserve but youur
talking about something I know a bit about.
First Playmation (background time, I work at a computer dealership and get to
demo alot of this software. We are also a authorized toaster dealership ).
Playmation I found compared to the other packages available in the amiga land
was kind of on the bottom of the heap so to say (along with that $500 sculpt
animate mistake I made). Playmation Rendering times were quite discusting. It
took all night to do a animated fish swimming where as Imagine took about 3
hours. Spline based modelling is nice but the package just didn't have the
features to back it up.
A good package to start off with would be Alladin tho' it is a steep learning
curve it has a nice payoff, and is more simple to learn than Imagine or Real 3D
V2 (for those of us that can't afford a T4000).
Second Eight hours a frame???? Yikes!!!! For an animation that's a little
much, and definatly not the norm. On average about 5 to 25 minutes a frame
When your going for the still shots, that's where rendering times sky rocket!
I've spent 20 hours on a pic (A4000 rendering), to have it turn out like, well,
ummmm…. Well really ugly anyway.
Kent Sunde
Yeah, I'm beginning to wonder myself if Playmation wasn't a mistake,
especially after John Dowdell's reply…. Oh well; live and learn….
Mr. C!
*No* 3D package is a mistake! The field's wide enough that any experience comes
in useful…just keep pushin' at it!
jd
Oh, I'm not in any HURRY to get rid of Playmation — in fact I'd be
tickled to death if Hash rewrote the Renderer and Player to take advantage
of the AGA chipset (hint, hint?) — and I've been thinking about ways to
avoid the "stuck-together" look (Idea: Build separate "shoulder" that
matches vertical-circle of "chest", with inverted "cup" design to stick
arm-segment _into_; move arm by Skeleton but _Morph_ shoulder). Besides,
I think all the "channels" are pretty neat, and if it takes me twelve
distinct operations to make a "motion" but I _understand_ all twelve
operations, this is better for me than any "one-stroke Movement Macro"
that I don't have a CLUE how it works…. 😉
>I'm trying to learn Playmation at the moment, I told it to "render" (CLI
>command for anything other than low-res), 732×480, 24-bit IFF but without
>anti-aliasing — and it took FORTY MINUTES PER FRAME!!!!
You didn't say what kind of CPU you were using but I am sure that the
reason it takes so long is the fact that PlayMation uses RAY-TRACING
instead of scanline, which would account for the slow rendering times.
<<< Tony D. Tracer >>>
I've got an A4000/040 but Playmation doesn't like the AGA architecture
(standard-NTSC looks horrible on my C1960 monitor), so I made the classic
mistake of rendering the scene as 24-bit IFF frames, which meant that I
couldn't PLAY the damned things EITHER, until I ran them through ADPro to
collect them in ".anim" file format…. Sheesh….
Anybody out here talked to Martin Hash lately? Is he planning any AGA
upgrades to Playmation (or does he have some other Amiga-specific program
like Journeyman used to be)?
Martin Hash is now employed at Microsoft, directing some type of effort to
incorporate 3D patches into future versions of Windows. I'm unclear of the
effect this will have on Playmation, which will still be distributed
(independently of Microsoft) by Anjon & Associates.
jd
Although Hash has struck a deal with Microsoft, I wouldn't necessarily say he's
"employed" there – he described it more as a "I can work as little or as much
as I want" situation, where he's advising a team of real Microsoft people.
Second, it's not clear that it's going into a future Windows. Given Microsoft's
announced intentions into the consumer digital video via cable delivery systems
market, I'd guess they're going to use Hash's technology and knowledge of
animation choreography in the creation of *content* for future gizmos, not in
the OS of the gizmos themselves. And all this has no effect on Playmation, it's
still its own product with no association to Microsoft.
Interesting info, as ever, John…thanks for the clarification.
jd
Hi John,
I just unearthed my notes from the June Macromedia User Forum in SF…Steve
Banfield, Microsoft's Multimedia Tools Evangelist, was a speaker…when he was
asked about this issue, here's what I copied down:
"Martin adding support for better 3D graphics to Windows. Early to say, adding
to base operating system…I can't rule this out, but we may make a
tool…Martin says we'll try for compatibility…won't try to break other [3D]
apps."
Guess that's where I got my perception from…but you've spoken directly with
the source, so your info is probably better than these public statements.
I'm impressed with the hardware/OS fast Gouraud shading on SGI machines…any
hint (or perceived hint!) of moving 3D primitive support into lower-priced
operating systems sets my little heart a-flutter.
What's your impression of future development for Playmation? (And…"talking
chimps in the GUI"?!?)
John D.
I don't think *they* know what they want to do with it. Martin's been
successful with algorithms for very fast forward differencing for rendering of
his patches. Maybe they'll add that to the 3D hooks for a future 3D-friendly
Windows… but they've also promised OpenGL, right?
As for "chimps in the GUI", I get the feeling that Microsoft is looking for
*content generating* programs as much as software to sell… they'll need it
to feed the channels of video and CDROM products they'll be making.
How was the Macromedia conference? I've been working on 3DGF and 3D Works code
on and off for a while, I'd thought about attending one of those…