smart quotes
38 messages in this thread
On the Mac, you can have smart quotes—that is, curly quotes rather than
straight ticks. The apostrophe and the character under the tilde on the
Amiga keyboard are single versions of what I mean.
Is there a way to get the curly quotes on the Amiga, especially with
ProPage? Is the left quote and the right quote a separate postscript font
character, or is the Mac "faking" it by using the apostrophe twice and
kerning them together? Could a Genie be written to get this effect?
If it is a character, I should be able to use a hex editor on the
postscript file to find and replace. If it is a trick, I will need to
write a macro of some sort. In any case, I know Pagemaker and Word allow
this and the Amiga software does not. Any ideas?
/post
They guy who "invented" smart quotes on the Mac will send code to anyone
who wants it, to implement it correctly in all applications… it's too
bad more Amiga companies don't implement them.
Jim,
You don't need a HEX editor to work on Postscript files, its just ASCII
text.
Why not save a simple line of text in PageMaker print to file and compare
it to the same page made in ProPage?
Yes, I agree, the proper use of open/close quotes is DTP is essential.
Using the inch character smacks of typewriter style usage.
chris
I can't comment on `smart quotes', but I do know that in many fonts, the `
and ' characters are opening and closing single quotes (in true ASCII,
they're grave and acute accents!). I've always just stuck two of them
together and relied on the proportional spacing to get them close enough to
look like double quotes.
Some fonts _do_ have proper quotation marks in them … but they're
sometimes in obscure mapping positions.
Since PostScript is pure ASCII text, you wouldn't need a hex editor, the
only problem is that you'd need to know what the code in the particular
font was, where to put it … and also you'd have to ensure that ProPage
(or whatever) spaced the text properly for the quotes.
In AdobeStandardEncoding, the octal code for quotedblleft is \252 and for
\quotedblright is \272 … but, Gold-Disk has chosen to completely remap
the characters sets within the PostScript prolog.
What you might do (and I stress, I haven't tried this) is to alter the
encoding vector yourself. Few people use the ordmasculine and ordfeminine
(the little underscored o and a) which are assigned to these two codes, so
you could try altering the PostScript file (or even the psprlg file, if you
wanted it permanent) so that the two lines:
8#252 /ordfeminine
8#272 /ordmasculine
read
8#252 /quotedblleft
8#272 /quotedblright
Now, whenever you use ALT-V and ALT-B, although you'll still get the
original characters on the screen, your PostScript printer _should_ replace
them with the opening and closing quotes if they exist in the font.
As I say, I've not tried this … so I'd be interested to know how well it
works.
Mike (from the UK)
Thanks, Mike. I might give that a try. The output in question is going to
disk and then to a Mac at the printer's. But since we only use Times and
Helvetica for the job in question, it may work. But I am loath to risk it
with a real job–it could get pricey to experiment.
Jim,
As far as I am aware, double open and closed quotes are not mapped on the
Amiga Keyboard. This makes it difficult to support in the software.
With Professional Page you could use two single quotes “text'' and TRACK
them closer. This is also a handy way to get an em dash. Type four —- and
track them by -10. Remember, tracking basically moves the highlighted
charcter by the amount required. It is possible to track only a single
character by highlighting it and tracking. If you highlight more then one
character it will track all of them. It is not necessary to track pairs,
ie: with AV you would only highlight the V and track it closer to the
A…this way the A will not move. In the em dash you would highlight from
the second to fourth dash and track.
I know development is discussing the best possible way to make available
the extended character set. The best possible and most effecient UI is
needed.
Philip Laitar
Supervisor
OH YES: It should be possible to make a genie place the characters already
tracked.
Why not do what the MAC does? You have a requestor asking the user if
smart quotes are desired. Depending on how that is toggled, the usual "
key is mapped. John Foust says the code for doing that is readily
available (see above).
Jim,
We want an easy too use UI for all the extended keyboard characters…if
the ` and the ' or the " were replace globaly by a `smartquote'
automatically how would you access the single quotes or the inch mark when
need them. All three can be used many times in the same document.
Philip Laitar
Supervisor
How about, when you type “ you get smart opening quoes and '' gives you
smart closing quotes? No, I didn't think so 🙂
Yes, you do need an easy way of handling this … I personally would like a
three tier system. The first two would be to have `escape' methods (like
PageStream) to allow a raw numeric code to be entered or a simple mnemonic.
The third would allow graphical selection from a table of such characters
(ideally prepared from the font in question).
Mike (from the UK)
Mike,
"…The third would allow graphical selection from a table of such
characters
(ideally prepared from the font in question)…"
I have a little macintosh INIT I use with AMAX and it does just that. Move
the mouseform to the top left corner of the screen and press and hold the
mouse button, a window drops down displaying the entire character map of
the font I have selected from within the program I'm using at the time.
Move the pointer into the window and across the characters, as you pass
over each one it is highlighted in reversed video, stop on the one you
want, release the button and it will be pasted at the cursor's position. It
is very neat. I have had some trouble with it since I'm also using an Adobe
INIT called Type Reunion that groups all fonts by families and adds a
sub-menu to each one in the main menu. But this would (should) work with
programs like PPage. If someone wanted to write it.
Chris
XPress handles the situation best. They have a preferences option to turn
on smart quotes, and then you can type control " to get normal quotes. Or
you can turn off smart quotes and type ctrl " to get smart quotes. Your
choice.
Hmm…
Michael Soft-Logik
the way smart quotes work on the mac they only use the " key. They are
"smart" enough to know whether they follow or precede a space, I guess, and
so they curl the correct way. So you would not lose the other keys. The
user would simply tell the software if he wanted smart or regular use of
the " key.
Philip
You are correct … open/close quotes (and indeed many other characters in
the AdobeStandardEncoding) are not part of the Amiga's character set and so
aren't mapped onto the keyboard.
I appreciate that there are difficulties in handling this … it's made a
little worse in a way because ProPage doesn't directly support Type-1
fonts. PageStream handles the problem one way and, while it's not perfect,
it's fairly easy to use.
Your suggestion of tracking the “ and '' works just fine for me (I've used
it right from when I was editing/typesetting Transactor(UK)) … and a
genie would be very easy to do too for this, and em dashes and so on.
As for the best user interface for selecting these alternate characters,
can I suggest that, for the benefit of power users, it be possible to map
them onto keyboard. Perhaps a special keyboard mapping display which shows
all the characters in the currently selected font (after all, you'll have
them loaded if the user has them in the document) where the user simply
clicks on the character he wants, and then presses the key he wants the
character to appear on … a utility to show the current keymapping would
also be essential.
Alternatively (but perhaps not quite so good) take the approach of other
packages and allow direct input of a numeric code … or even, like
PageStream, a mnemonic.
Or you could have different keyboard mappings, user-selectable … although
this isn't as versatile as the other two, since it'd be difficult to handle
font specific encoding.
But, please remember that, if you make life easy for the font-naif,
_please_ allow those of us who know our font mappings the ability to select
directly by character number.
Mike (from the UK)
Mike (& all),
I do an em-dash by changing the baseline on an underscore.
Malcolm
I'd guess that'd look a little better than the hyphens … since
underscores are usually finer lines and you wouldn't need to worry about
spacing fore and aft.
But how would you do an en-dash then 🙂 ?
Mike (from the UK)
Mike,
How about… type a hyphen and change it to Symbol font? 🙂
Malcolm
Smart, curly, or real quotation marks, are easy to do in PageStream. They
are part of the PageStream character set. Characters not accessible by
normal keys are accessed by hitting control C and then a mnemonic. For left
quote it's "l and for right quote it's "r. Pretty easy. I have my first two
function keys set to these as macros since I use them so often.
PageLiner also allows you to use curly quotes and uses the same mnemonics
as PageStream.
Michael Soft-Logik
Sounds GOOD, Mike. I may be using that Power Up program after all (in
spite of the silly requirement to send in an actual disk and page–who
really cares about that?)
So, are these characters part of all character sets? What do you mean by
"the PageStream character set"? Doesn't it depend on the font?
Jim: character sets: PageStream does not use the standard Amiga character
set because it lacks several important characters. We use our own character
set (which doesn't make any difference to the user) which has 255
characters. We did this because PageStream originally began with its own
proprietary] outline font technology. So we had our own character set. Then
we added Compugraphic and PostScript Type 1 font support directly into the
program. CG fonts, while they can have up to 65535 characters, generally
have about 255 characters and are fairly easily mapped to the PgS set. Most
PS fonts use less than 255 characters and can also be easily mapped to the
PS character set. This is all done internally and is transparent to the
user.
There are some fonts which cannot be used with PageStream at this time.
Examples of these are the Expert collections from Adobe, and some foreign
language fonts, because they use non-standard encoding vectors and the
characters are not mapped to match PgS's character set. We are working on
this problem.
The reason we require that users provide proof of ownership of another DTP
program when powering up to PageStream (in the form of the title page of
the manual plus either the program disk or a photocopy of the reg card) is
to ensure that only these people take advantage of the deal. We do not want
to undercut our valued dealer network by selling direct to users at prices
lower than the dealer price. We are simply providing an opportunity for
people who have already shelled out big bucks for a dtp to be able to
afford more than one dtp tool. Because of this longstanding policy, we have
a very loyal dealer network who sell a lot of our programs. While our
software is also sold in mail order, we are extremely strong in dealer
channels.
Michael Soft-Logik Publishing
Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense.
BTW–I picked up a British magazine with a fully working copy of PageSetter
last month. I guess that should qualify as a DTP program, eh?
I'm not sure. A freebie disk copy from a mag doesn't meet the guidelines we
posted in the library (in the PowerUp text file), because it doesn't have a
title page of a manual. But I'll ask and find out what our policy is on
this.
Michael Soft-Logik
Well, there IS a manual of sorts—-the magazine publishes it in a series
of installments. It ends up costing a fair amount if you want to get all
the docs.
Actually, I HAVE ProPage—but I have an aversion to tearing pages from
books. It goes back to grade school training, I guess.
Give our sales line a call and discuss it with them. Our primary sales
person was out sick today so I didn't get a chance to discuss it. It's a
toll-free call if you're in the states or Canada. 1-800-829-8608. I'm sure
we can do something for you.
Michael Soft-Logik
The disk provided with AmigaFormat was PAGESETTER I and did not contain a
manual or reg card…technically, it does not qualify for GOLD DISK TECH
SUPPORT (this is provided free of charge to registered owners who purchased
a full working copy of the program with manual, reg. cards, etc.).
Buyers of the magazine were given a special offer to purchase PAGESETTER II
from AmigaFOrmat for 50 pounds. When they receive this package they will
have a full package eligible for Tech Support (if they send in the REG.
card) and I assume for any specials.
Philip Laitar
Supervisor
Could you tell me about the Power-Up program, please?
>>>>>Skip (SKP Graphics) <<<<<
Basically, the PowerUp program provides a way for someone who already owns
an Amiga desktop publisher, to get PageStream without having to pay
full-cost for a second program. It also lets you keep your current program
intact in case you want to continue with upgrades for it, while still
getting the latest version of PageStream. The powerup price is $120 plus $5
shipping, $15 outside of North America. See the following file in the
AmigaUser library for full information:
[76004,1676] POWER.TXT/Asc Bytes: 2411, Count: 48, 14-Jul-92
Last:27-Jul-92
Title : Power-Up to PageStream 2.2 for only $120!
Keywords: PAGESTREAM POWER UPGRADE PROPAGE SAXON
Power-Up to PageStream 2.2 from any Amiga desktop publisher for a very
low
price! Offer expires September 31, 1992.
—
Michael Soft-Logik
Jim
If I remember correctly, if PageStream can't find the character you've
asked for in the font you wanted, it'll go and get a generic character to
replace it with on screen and will print with this to a dot-matrix printer.
However, if those characters aren't in the PostScript font you're using,
then you _won't_ get them in your output … so, PageStream isn't WYSIWYG
in this respect.
For instance, if you're in Times and you generate a copyright symbol
(CTRL-C c o) then you'll get one on screen … but it doesn't appear on my
PostScript laser printer because it isn't part of the AdobeStandardEncoding
vector.
Character mappings like this are a _nightmare_!!
Mike (from the UK)
PageStream will look for the character you've asked for (whether you type a
normal keystroke, a two character mnemonic, or a 3 digit character ID), and
will put it on the screen. If the font doesn't have one mapped to that
location, nothing will appear unless the font designer didn't make the
unused characters zero width. This is a very common problem with PD fonts.
Most have a lot of junk in the unused slots, maybe because it's not
noticeable on PC's or Mac's, I'm not sure. In any case, PgS maps to these
and you might get half of a character which the author was using for a
transform, or you might get a wide space because the author didn't zero it
out from the font he based his new font on. In any case, PgS will not
return anything if it's zero width, and will return something if it's width
is greater than 0.
Michael Soft-Logik
Some characters deliberately have zero width, as they're intended as
overstrikes so ignoring them might cause problems if you were using them as
they were intended (however, that is fairly rare, as most of these symbols
are diacriticals set up for the seac command).
It's also true that a few PD fonts do have a lot of rubbish left in unused
character spaces … and some have images (including what appear to be
self-portraits of the designer!).
However, provided that all these characters obey the rules (and most seem
to) there's no reason why they shouldn't be used.
The problem I was referring to (and I can't work out whether you're telling
me it's not a problem, or you're looking at the wrong problem) is that some
fonts (for instance Times) will display characters that are not part of the
PageStream PostScript prologue encoding and therefore will not print on a
PostScript printer.
I did believe, on the other hand, that PageStream would go to the
plugin.typebucket if it couldn't find the character you were after … is
that so? If not, what exactly does the plugin.typebucket do?
Indeed, there are also some discrepancies between the bitmapped fonts
provided and their scalable cousins.
Character mapping is an absolute nightmare … probably the single most
awkward thing to handle when working with DTP. You (i.e. the programmers)
will always know what characters are included in any font that you load at
run-time, but haven't a clue what might exist in the PostScript printer's
version of the font (although there are many `safe' assumptions!) … but,
with PostScript allowing only 255 characters, and CompuGraphic allowing
65535, it's difficult to map one down onto the other.
Mike (from the UK)
The Plugin.typebucket file is part of the Compugraphic font module and is
in no way used by the PostScript font module. Yes, it's a well of common
characters which other CG fonts can draw on.
PageStream simply takes whatever character happens to be in the slot for
which it normally gets a, say e with a grave accent, and puts it up on
screen. The character should print. I'm not aware of any that don't, unless
they're problem characters. Do you have any examples?
Bitmapped discrepancies: the problem is that we've included bitmap screen
fonts to speed up display, but the CG fonts print different character sets
to PostScript and non-PS printers. We'll probably change this in a future
version.
The solution (holy grail) to all of this, is to have font-specific
encoding. It's on the wishlist.
Michael Soft-Logik
Jim,
In Transactor, we used doubled apostrophes and ticks. With kerning turned
on, it's virtually indistinguishable from 66s and 99's.
Malcolm
Do you mean I should just use doubled apostrophes and doubled ticks in
ProPage? (I think kerning is always on in ProPage unless you shut it off.)
To me, they look a bit widely spaced compared to what I would expect.
Jim,
Yes, that's what I mean. Results will vary depending on the font, I guess.
If they're too widely spaced, track them so that they look the way you
want.
THEN, highlight that piece of text and press rA-/ to send it to AE (or
TransWrite). That way you can see what PPage codes are involved to achieve
the effect and you can put them on a macro key.
Malcolm
It is not necessary to send text to AE to check the amount of tracking
applied. Select tracking from the menu or press right-amiga w to bring up
the requestor showing the numeric value of tracking.
Philip Laitar
Supervisor
Phil,
Oh, I know it's not necessary. It's just that once you have things the way
you want it makes sense to me to switch and program it on a macro key while
it's sitting in front of you.
Preformatting text files might make an interesting article.
Malcolm