#Nurbs in 3ds
33 messages in this thread
I saw a demostration of Autocad Autosurf that I thoght was
unbelivable. Now I ask – if Autodesk can only port it to 3ds as
either an IPAS or as native 3d Editor function it woul be just
awsome…..-. Instead we have something stupid like "Patch Modler"
that you can't do much with. Can anyone tell me why it is not there
in 3ds…. Autodesk are you listening?
Ken
<< .port it to 3ds as either an IPAS or as native 3d Editor function
it woul be just awsome……wish..>>
got it.
>> we have something stupid <<
Suggestion: think before you type.
Did you work with Playmation, and that is just an example
That's not my point; just cause you don't appreciate something doesn't make it
stupid.
> Instead we have something stupid like "Patch Modler" that you can't do much
with.
I'm assuming you downloaded the demo version of the Patch Modeler? If
so, I'm sorry you were dissappointed with it. All the feedback I've
received so far has been positive.
Just wanted to let you know that you're the first and only user who
has referred to this program as "stupid" and useless. Oh well, I
guess you can't please everyone.
I'm Sorry but I think 3ds is a great program until it comes to organic
modeling, yes you can "eventualy" create something that with a hint of Organic
substance, I am sorry I don't think that Patch has what it take. Plamation,
as an example is lot more powefull. – that what I mean "Stupid".
Ken,
<< Instead we have something stupid like "Patch Modler" >>
Come on, think before you type!
<< that you can't do much with. >>
Not true, look at all of the examples that came with the demo.
Mark
Did you ever worked with even the earliset version of Playmation……………
I did not see a complete model that took my breath away . I just don't think
that an indirect minipulation of the object is the way to create or edit model.
A modeler, to me means the ability to have direct control over the model any
direct way I like. ( like as in Playmation, as an example).
>>I saw a demostration of Autocad Autosurf that I thoght was unbelivable.
Now I ask – if Autodesk can only port it to 3ds as either an IPAS or as native
3d Editor function it woul be just awsome…..-. Instead we have something
stupid like "Patch Modler" that you can't do much with. Can anyone tell me why
it is not there in 3ds…. Autodesk are you listening?
Ken<<
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You seem to have recieved some negative responses to your post above. I guess
you have learned that -anything- negative is not tolerated here. Feathers get
ruffled quickly. This is a shame, because we spend too much time couching our
language in saccarine tones when we don't have to. There ARE times when it
would be better to let ADesk and the guys at the Yost Group know how deeply
their decisions affect us. "Excessive 'happy-talk' thickens ivory tower walls."
(I think I found that quote inside my fortune cookie at lunch today! <G>)
I do agree with your point that FOR WHAT WE DO a nurbs patch modeller is not
the obvious first choice. . . . for automobile designers it might be perfect,
but for those of us doing character animation or anything organic it is
tedious. Why are there limits on the amount of patches? Why are there limited
patch shapes? Why should we waste time worrying about a control point's effect
on a patch that's halfway across the viewport from it? We are -mostly- artists!
Not mathematicians or theorists! . . . When I look around me, the entire planet
is not made of 4 segment cylinders!
I agree that the modeller in Animation Master is good for organic shapes. Some
of the commands are pretty far from my idea of common sense, but I guess I'll
have to live with them! <G> I'm currently playing with Macromodel and it, too
seems to be pretty good. It's a lot more professional than AM.
Oh well, if R5 has patches (appropriate term, don't you think?) then I'll be
sticking with Animation Master (or maybe Macromodel) for my organic stuff!
Best of luck! Sean Platter
<<There ARE times when it would be better to let ADesk and the guys at the Yost
Group know how deeply their decisions affect us.>>
You are totally right. I think it is very important that Autodesk make all it's
users aware of what is under development and what is the status of given
wishlist items. BUT, on the other hand I can understand why Autodesk is keeping
so hush-hush about 3DS NT. Lets be honest and say that they got badly burnt
over the Patch Modeller withdrawal situation. One guy said they were even
planning legal action against Autodesk for removing the patch modeller. This is
one case where Autodesk put the cards on the table early and then made a
decision to withdrawn one later.
Everyone took the early announcement as gospel, when it fact the information
was regarding a beta version, and therefore jumped up and down when it wasn't
delivered. The problem is that the same people who jump up and down asking for
more information about the next version are more than likely the same to ALSO
jump up and down when for some reason the announcements don't turn out as
expected.
It's a catch 22 situation. The more Autodesk give away the more people are
likely to reproach them for "false promises". The problem is people take any
information as a promise and leave Autodesk no leeway when things change.
Another reason is that there is competition out there! How many developers leak
development information when a competing product is know to also be under
development? It's a dog eat dog world in software development, unfortunately.
<<"Excessive 'happy-talk' thickens ivory tower walls." (I think I found that
quote inside my fortune cookie at lunch today! <G>)>>
I agree totally, after all without "us" there wouldn't be a "them".
<<I do agree with your point that FOR WHAT WE DO a nurbs patch modeller is not
the obvious first choice. . . . for automobile designers it might be perfect,
but for those of us doing character animation or anything organic it is
tedious.>>
The patch paradigm isn't the most intuitive nor convenient. The AMAPI modeller
is probably the best I've seen yet since it works with curves that you draw by
hand and the surface is generated automatically.
<<We are -mostly- artists! Not mathematicians or theorists! . . . When I look
around me, the entire planet is not made of 4 segment cylinders!>>
I like your perspective; that of an artist. Too often there is a vast gap
between the programmer and the user. This comes about for a few different
reasons. The main one is that the programmer is NOT an artist. They don't
approach the task in the same way, a programmer will often do what is easiest
to program rather than make things more difficult by providing a sophisticated
interface. The more the synergy between art and programming the better the
tools, because the tools will be developed from the perspective of the end-user
and not vice versa.
The patch modeller is a case in point, nothing personal against Danny Mercurio,
but developing a patch modeller, from a programming perspective, is much
simpler than a generalized NURBS modeller. Yet, a NURBS implementation like
that of AMAPI is far more intuitive and powerful from the end-users
perspective, even if it is a colossal task to program.
I have possibly a unique position that I am both an artist AND a programmer, so
I can step into both pairs of two shoes when approaching a problem. Something
I'm sure that the talent within the Yost Group have mastered for some time now.
DaviD "artist + programmer = schizophrenic mutant" GouID
>>on the other hand I can understand why Autodesk is keeping so hush-hush
about 3DS NT. Lets be honest and say that they got badly burnt over the Patch
Modeller withdrawal situation.<<
I guess my post dealt _indirectly_ with ADesk's w/drawl of their patch
modeller. Actually, I was HAPPY to see it cut. Though CERTAINLY NOT from a
sadistic point of view! But from the point of view that maybe this would give
ADesk a little time to "sober up" and realize that a patch modeller (with
unavoidable limitations) seriously cripples the creativity of all invloved in
3D Studio. Especially when it appears that the majority of serious users have
all purchased non-patch spline modellers to compensate.
I've got my fingers crossed so tight that my knuckles are white hoping that
they have a full b-spline modeller included in R5. Well, we will all know in a
few days! It feels kinda like Christmas. . . except it's Gary and the folks at
the Yost Group staying up all night cursing as they assemble our 'bikes'!
>>The more Autodesk give away the more people are likely to reproach them for
"false promises".<< >>Another reason is that there is competition out
there!<<
I certainly agree!
>>The patch paradigm isn't the most intuitive nor convenient. The AMAPI
modeller is probably the best I've seen yet since it works with curves that you
draw by hand and the surface is generated automatically.<<
Definately!!!! Are you going to be bringing a copy of AMAPI to SIGGRAPH so we
can take a look? -or- Are the AMAPI folks going to have a booth there so we can
see what you've been raving about?
>>I like your perspective; that of an artist<<
I should hope so! Just because there are no paints or canvas in the 3D biz,
does not excuse ANY of us from not creating art in every image we make! In
order for us to compete today we still need to know the tried-&-true rules of
composition, color theory, perspective, and visual harmony to make our images!
Photographers don't use paint or canvas either, instead they use 3D objects and
lights to create their images. Yet all professional photographers use these
rules. Believe me! I got them drilled into me in my Photography Minor in
college!
I hope I don't sound elitist by making the statements above. It's just that I
get really tired of people thinking that since they don't 'really' have to draw
or color the objects in their scenes, that they are exempt from creating well
composed images that can have some feeling (even though the image might be of a
gear assembly). These rules are EASY for EVERYONE to learn and once known, are
invaluable.
Please don't take my little diatribe personally David, I've seen enough of your
work to see that you approach your images with an eye towards art as well.
>>The main one is that the programmer is NOT an artist. They don't approach
the task in the same way.<<
Don't I know! As I become more emersed in the games industry, I find your
statement to be more true every day!
See ya @ SIGGRAPH ! Sean
>>It feels kinda like Christmas. . . except it's Gary and the folks at the
>>Yost Group staying up all night cursing as they assemble our 'bikes'!
I _love_ that mental picture! <BG>
Dave
<<It feels kinda like Christmas. . . except it's Gary and the folks at the Yost
Group staying up all night cursing as they assemble our 'bikes'!>>
Now I know why Gary has grown a beard! Santa Claus in Santa Fe. I guess with
all the stress of getting the "baby" to market his beard will go white and then
all he has to do is work on the red nose. Though I think the red nose won't be
a problem after a few of the SIGGRAPH parties (hic!) <g>
<<Are you going to be bringing a copy of AMAPI to SIGGRAPH so we can take a
look?>>
Sure, but don't ask me to demo it. I've been so busy that I've spent a total of
1 DAY playing with it.
<<Are the AMAPI folks going to have a booth there so we can see what you've
been raving about?>>
What, ME, rave? Never! <g> I just found it to be smart little package that
provides a great extension to 3DS already existing tools. It definitely isn't a
replacement, but some of the functions it provides are great complements.
BTW The latest I've heard is that Yonowat are developing AMAPI into a PXP so
that you can use their modeller directly in 3DS!!!
<<Just because there are no paints or canvas in the 3D biz, does not excuse ANY
of us from not creating art in every image we make!>>
I can proudly say that I have NEVER created a single "shiny sphere on a chess
board" image, and never will!!!
Rant mode on.
Have you ever seen the Graphic of the Month in the CompuServe Magazine? 99% of
the time, the images are so useless I can't believe they ever made it. One was
of a clown that must have taken, all of five minutes. I don't know who votes
for them, probably the artist's friends, but I can't help wonder what people
use as a criteria for judging such images.
Rant mode off.
<<In order for us to compete today we still need to know the tried-&-true rules
of composition, color theory, perspective, and visual harmony to make our
images!>>
Wow, I'd better get back to books.
<<It's just that I get really tired of people thinking that since they don't
'really' have to draw or color the objects in their scenes, that they are
exempt from creating well composed images that can have some feeling>>
Double wow, you reading my mind? I think that, the emotion content of computer
graphics images, is possibly one of the MAIN reasons why they look so UNREAL.
Too often you hear that computer graphics images don't look real because they
are too perfect, but in another sense they don't look real because they don't
portray any emotional content. Take Luxo Jr for example, while the images were
great, the emotional content was what made people remember it later.
Computer graphics images don't leave anything to the imagination because they
are so pristine and precise. It is not a question of dirtying an image up, it
is more of adding the emotional content that differentiates our human world of
emotions to that of the cold unfeeling machine used to generate them. After all
it is us humans that see the images, not the computer, so why the focus on the
technical when the aesthetic is the most important criteria.
Possibly one of the my favourite animations, is that of Yop Lo in Fantasia.
Through the most barest lines and gestures, the animator portrayed the
emotions of the little mushroom. Less is more!
<<I've seen enough of your work to see that you approach your images with an
eye towards art as well.>>
I'm working on it. I have no degree in art, but that doesn't hinder my
appreciation for what looks "good".
<<Don't I know! As I become more emersed in the games industry, I find your
statement to be more true every day!>>
I went to a games studio, here in Paris, a few months ago and I told them that
I was both an artist AND a programmer. Well the reaction was like I'd just come
from Mars. In fact, they have one floor for the artists and one floor for the
programmers.
The sooner the programmer become artists and the artists become programmers,
the better the results. After all Leonardo Da Vinci was himself an artist and a
scientist. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.
An artistic equation that I'm sure will happen:
Artists access to programming = 3DS NT + Windows NT(DLL library support) +
Visual Basic
DaviD "getting off my soap box" GouID
I agree 100%
Ken
Thanks for the support, I do feel that 3DS users are
1. just too afraid to learn a new prog.
2. tend to take anything Adesk puts out as if it was given by GOD himself.
Well, I love 3ds but am still looking for an organic modeler, so far playmation
is the best modeler I can think of (yet far from perfect). I would love to see
a native patch modeler in the 3d editor, metarayes are too expensive and not
as friendly as splines. Still I am looking into REAL 3D by real soft. I just
can figure it out- 3D Studio is currently at R.4 and we STILL don't have
patches…. what is wrong here? In fact for 3,000.00 we still don't even have
a ray tracer, prog. costing fraction of 3ds price tag offer a ray tracer.
I find Macromodel not easy to master, I have left it a long time ago…
Ken
Ken:
>> I do feel that 3DS users are
1. just too afraid to learn a new prog.
2. tend to take anything Adesk puts out as if it was given by GOD himself. <<
Give your peers some credit for having at least a small pea of a brain lodged
in their head, sheesh. I'm not certain what your's and Sean's strategy is with
this thread. It is certain that you both desire modeller improvements, don't
we all? Rather than post a constructive wish list item you feel that it is
better to paint your fellow 3DS users as lethargic automatons who worship a
software company? Negativity is simply unproductive. A level-headed
formulation will be far more useful to someone who could respond to your
desires. As a matter of fact in just a couple of days we should know a whole
lot more about the direction and future capabilities of 3DS.
– Bob Ritger
>>Give your peers some credit for having at least a small pea of a brain
lodged in their head, sheesh. I'm not certain what your's and Sean's strategy
is with this thread<<
Bob, knee-jerk defensiveness won't make this conversation any better. It just
tends to drive Ken and my point home!
Imagine if you had a client that was paying you for a service. As you were
supplying it to him/her, he kept nodding and saying how wonderful you were
doing; while all along, replacing half of the work you were doing with somone
else's.
I think you would feel a little cheated. "Why didn't he just tell me I was
doing a rotten job on that area and let ME fix it?" you would say.
Ken and I are doing that. And please follow this thread back and you will see
it originated with Ken's post in the WISHLIST section. He made the mistake of
using one descriptive word that was a shade too direct for many on this forum.
I decided to join the fray in his defense to shine the Omni Light on the thin
skins we have developed here! <G>
All my best and it would be fun to meet you at SIGGRAPH!
Sean
Sean:
Don't worry I have the whole thread with all of the "stupid" comments made.
"Knee-jerk" defensiveness? That is your perception, I was illustrating that
Ken's overgeneralized statement was simply not based in fact and wasn't going
to endear him to any forumites. No, one doesn't have to keep everybody happy
but I offered my perspective on why upsetting everyone is NOT the way to get
things to change to one's wishes.
Over the years the wishlist section has been very active. Flaming messages,
put downs and all of those "this sucks, this blows" comments aren't going to
affectuate change as much as a detailed description and solid reason why the
change is important.
– Bob Ritger
Bob:
Give it up. We're just too blind to see what tunnel-visioned boobs we are. I,
for one, enjoy being generalized about. It keeps people from wasting too much
of their valuable time finding out useless information about me.
Dave
<< I, for one, enjoy being generalized about >>
This got me laughing this morning! %-}
jonas[packing-running-and -flying-today!]
Dave:
Dave, you are correct, Dave. Dave, I must get back to using the only software
I know how to use, Dave.
– Bob Ritger
Can someone tell me what is R. C. R. seem so afraid of offending ADESK .
Somtimes it helps to express "STRONG" feelings when we are holding in a R 4 of
the 'Standard of The 3D Modeling on the PC Platform' WITHOUT a spline
modeler………………..,( or a ray tracer )
Yes, I think we as users, should express ourselves more "graphicly" and not
be concern about sounding 'negative' to anyone. ( Wow, that felt good)
Ken
Ken:
We aren't likely to come to any agreement are we? I've wasted enough bytes on
this already.
-Bob Ritger
… As long as we don't forget what 3DS is all about we are in agreement…
Ken
Hi Ken,
<<.. Why seem so afraid of offending ADESK . Somtimes it helps to express
"STRONG" feelings..? >>
This forum has a history of animators having very strong feelings about their
needs. We've had debates and heated dialog here for years and this is good.
Noone is afraid of letting Adesk what they like and dislike about our products.
That's why we have a wishlist section.
However, strong feelings do not have to equal to SHOUTING, vulgarity, demeaning
language, rudeness or any other coarse method of expressing the
feature/function that the feeling is based on. The veterans know that it's hard
for anyone to really listen to the intent of the message when the message is
laced with unnecessary negativity.
So…this all comes down to the subtleties of debate, dialogue, facts, needs,
community relations and friends.
Many of us here, who often never meet face to face, but have hung out in this
section for many years, consider ourselves friends. How does one talk to a
friend when they need advise?
jonas[adesk]
To Jonas
There is no question about the commitment of ADESK to its users, it's more like
what's more important, Splines or better materials -(Ver3 to Ver 4, I still
think Ver 4 should be named Ver 3. 5 and Ver 4 should have included Splines).
I never wanted to offend anyone ever. I suppose the choich of words
might lend itself to some conclusions… but sometimes we feel strongly about
somethings we want to take for granted (like Splines and Ray Tracers).
ADESK, with its dominating position it the PC market (Autocad as well as 3DS)
strikes me as a firm with resources well at its disposal to provide a native,
and powerfull modeler in 3DS. I must add, I can't understand what can stand in
the way of "porting" already existing code used in Acad (Autosurf) to 3DS.
Hi Ken,
<< , I can't understand what can stand in the way of "porting" already
existing code used in Acad (Autosurf) to 3DS..>>
Ahh.. all you need to do to understand this is to peek under the hood of each
applications data structures to see that even though both applications offer
visualization tools for the user, each application is quite different. Porting
code is sometimes much harder than writing it from scratch.
We'll keep trying to satisfy the needs of our production animators.
jonas[adesk]
I just can't wait to see splines in 3DS…. me and 100,000 more users.
Ken
G Thanks SEAN.
I think you are the only one to admit that you got the point I was making and
agreed.
God to know I'm not standing alone with one OMNI light in my hand (mouse) while
the setting in this 3D scean are set to ZERO on the SETTING Dialog box.
Ken
Ken,
I'm calming down this weekend from an excellent show at SIGGRAPH.
With 3DS MAX it looks like we will get our splines!!!! And in many different
flavors! MANY wishlist posts will be answered when this ships!
Start saving your pennies. . .
Sean
Now Jonas can just say "granted" intsead of "got it" when wishes come in <bg>>
– Phil