#Bars&Pipes Midi Problem
12 messages in this thread
Thomas,
I'd like to help but there's one thing I don't understand. You said,
"Midi 1 out of the Tripple Play Plus is run to Midi 1 in on the Sound
Canvas and Triple Play Plus out 1 is run to midi in on the Clavinova."
It sounds like you're saying you have the TPP MIDI Out 1 connected to
both the MIDI In of the Sound Canvas and the Clavinova. But you don't
mention you also have it connected to the MIDI In of the K-2000. From the
way you described your setup, it sounds as if the K-2000 should not play
at all, whether you use TPP MIDI Out 1 or 2. Since it does eventually
play, you must have things set up a bit differently than you indicated.
Please check your setup again and get back to me.
In other words, according to what you described, the only thing
connected to the K-2000's MIDI In is the MIDI Out of the Clavinova.
Therefore, the only thing that should sound the K-2000 is the output of
the Clavinova, which you would only get when you played the Clavinova's
keyboard. Anything appearing at the Clavinova's MIDI In should NOT be
echoed to its MIDI Out. So when the TPP's MIDI Out appears at the
Clavinova's MIDI In, it shouldn't be passed on to the K-2000's MIDI In. Is
it possible that the Clavinova's MIDI Out is actually a MIDI Out/Thru? In
that case, it would pass the signal on to the K-2000.
The bottom line is according to the way you described your setup, the
K-2000 should only sound when you play the Clavinova and should never
sound when you play B&P Pro. Since you are able to get the K-2000 to sound
with B&P Pro, things must be set up differently than you described. Check
your setup again, let me know what it is, and we'll take it from there.
Good luck and I'll wait to hear from you.
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
Dom,
You're right, I screwed up in describing my rather complicated connection
setup. Let's try again. Triple Play Plus' Midi 1 out runs to the Yamaha
Clavinova midi in. Clavinova Midi out runs to Kurzweil Midi in. Kurzweil
Midi Thru runs to Sound Canvas Midi 2 in. Triple Play Plus Midi Out 2
runs to Sound Canvas Midi 1 IN. Triple Play Plus Midi IN runs to Sound
Canvas Midi Thru. To play the Kurzweil from the Bars & Pipes 2.0
sequencer, I select TPP Midi 1 out tool and install it on the right side
of the pipeline. I turn the Roland on but mute all channels so that I do
not hear the Roland voices. When I click on play in B&P, I hear nothing
and the midi activity light on the Kurzweil shows no midi getting to the
Kurzweil. I then load TPP Midi out 2 tool over any one of the TPP Midi 1
out tools, select play, and I hear sound and see midi activity on the
Kurzweil. I then replace the TPP Midi 2 tool with the correct TPP Midi 1
tool, and *all* tracks play fine. Unless I do this exchange of TPP 2 for
TPP 1 in at least one track, I will never hear any track upon selecting
play. As soon as I do the exchange, play a second or two, then place TPP
1 midi out back in the pipeline, all is well and remains well until I
select a new song. Everytime I select a new song, I have to go through
the above ritual.
I'm sorry I gave you the wrong setup initially, and I hope you will be
able to offer some suggestions or refer my problem to the folks at Blue
Ribbon.
Thanks very much.
Tom
Thomas,
Is there a specific reason your system is set up like that? It seems overly
complicated. In fact, unless the clavinova echoes MIDI in to MIDI out I don't
see how it works at all.
HW
– via Whap!
Howard,
I'd like to think that my system is set up in no more complicated a
fashion than it needs to be. The Clavinova is a fine 88-key keyboard
controller with weighted key action. As such I want to be able to use it
to (1) Play the Kurzweil only; (2) Play the Sound Canvas only; (3) Play
both the Sound Canvas and Kurzweil simultaneously with different channels
being played by the Kurzweil and Sound Canvas; (4) Use the Bars & Pipes
Pro sequencer to play either the Sound Canvas or the Kurzweil or both by
assignment of tracks to TPP1 and TPP2 out tools.
Yes the Clavinova does echo midi in to midi out using a midi merge
feature.
I believe the problem is somehow related to triple play plus since
exchanging the TPP1 and TPP2 midi out tools seems to clear some midi clog
in the line and allow the Kurzweil to receive midi.
Look, it's not my intention to set up an unnecessarily complicated midi
system. If you can suggest a connection sequence that will allow me to do
the things I've listed above, I'll change in a minute!
Tom
Thomas,
I meant no offense in suggesting your system setup may be overly
complicated, I see you have specific applications in mind. I've set up systems
for schools and private use so I've done a bit of MIDI patching myself. <grin>
You might try booting B&P_Pro with the Clavinova's MIDI merge set to off, it's
possible a MIDI loop is causing the problem.
I don't use TPP so I'll bow out and let Dom & the folks from Blue Ribbon
answer your question.
Howard
– via Whap!
Howard,
No offense taken. I think my frustration at initially giving the wrong
setup to Dom and then having to retrace all these connections again was
showing through. I am a midi beginner but rapidly becoming an expert at
connections …the hard way! I'll try your suggestion on booting up with
midi merge off. You may be right on this. It's a really strange problem
that has me baffled.
Tom
Thomas,
Make sure you have the latest versions of the TPP Tools. Blue Ribbon
updated them a while ago.
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
Dom,
Yes I downloaded them from their BBS a week ago.
Tom
Thomas,
If it's a brand new version of the tools, then maybe you discovered a
bug. Let Adam know.
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
Tom,
I see a problem with your setup, but I don't understand why the ritual
cures the problem.
The bottom line is that you have a MIDI feedback loop. First, you have
TPP Out 1 connected to Clav In and then Clav Out connected to Kurz In, and
finally, Kurz Thru is Connected to SC In 2. When you use TPP Out 1, it
should only sound the Clav. Data received at the Clav's In is NOT echoed
to the Clav's Out. So it makes sense that you don't hear any sound from
the Kurz when using TPP Out 1. You're probably also not receiving any data
to the SC at this point.
Next, you have TPP Out 2 connected to the SC In 1. So when you play B&P
Pro with TPP Out 2, the only think you should hear is the SC. TPP Out 2 is
NOT connected to the Kurzweil, so you should not have any MIDI activity
there. So it doesn't make sense to me that the Kurz works with TPP Out 2.
To get sound from the Kurzweil, you would have to direct one of TPP's Outs
to the In of the Kurzweil. However, you have the Thru of the SC connected
to the TPP In. There is your MIDI feedback loop. The flow is TPP Out 2 to
SC In 1, then the data is echoed from the SC Thru back to the TPP In.
So I don't know why the Kurz works with TPP Out 2, and then ultimately
with TPP Out 1. From the way you described your setup, the Kurz should
never work from B&P Pro.
Here's a couple of thoughts. The Clav Out should only pass data when
you're playing the Clav's keyboard. That means when you play the Clav in
real time it should pass MIDI data to the Kurz and to the SC. Is it
possible that the Clav's Out is actually a Thru or an Out/Thru? If so,
then I think I see part of the problem. You mention that when TPP Out 1
doesn't work, you load a TPP Out 2 tool. However, the rest of the tracks
still have TPP Out 1 tools still there. Maybe what's happening is that
when you select TPP Out 2 the data goes to the SC then is passed through
the SC's Thru port back to B&P Pro via the TPP In. Then the data is again
passed to the TPP Out 1 (on those tracks where it is still there) and goes
to the Clav's In. If the Clav's Out is functioning as a Thru, then the
data will be passed to the Kurz In and then to the SC's In 2. However, if
the Clav's Out is functioning as a Thru, then the Kurz should sound when
you use TPP Out 1. You shouldn't have to perform the ritual.
Maybe, the Clav Out only functions as a Thru after it receives multiple
MIDI data at its In port. That would explain your problem. When using TPP
Out 1, the SC's Out functions as an Out. When it receives multiple MIDI
data (because of the MIDI feedback loop when you use TPP Out 2), the SC's
Out functions as a Thru. That would explain why you get sound from the
Kurz when you first use TPP Out 2. Then when you switch back to TPP Out 1,
the Clav's Out still functions as a Thru.
I hope I didn't confuse you. I'm really not certain WHY you have to go
through the ritual or why the ritual does work. However, I do know that
your setup is not right. First, double check the manual about the Clav's
MIDI Out. You need to get the signal from the Clav to the Kurz when using
TPP Out 1. Your current setup doesn't do that. Signals received at the
Clav's In are NOT passed to the Clav's Out. If you hook up the Clav's Thru
to the Kurz's In, then the Kurz should work the first time with TPP Out 1.
Then you would need to repatch the Clav's Out to the Kurz's In if you
wanted to play the Kurz in real time from the Clav. However, you can setup
B&P Pro to echo what is received at the TPP In. So if you hook up the Clav
Out to the TPP In, and the Clav Thru (if it has one) to the Kurz In, then
what you play will be sent to B&P Pro, then echoed back to the Clav and
passed on to the Kurz and SC. In this way, you will be able to hear what
you play on any module, plus you will be able to hear all your modules be
played from B&P Pro when using TPP Out 1, and without the ritual.
So rather than try to discover why you have to go through the ritual, I
suggest changing your MIDI wiring configuration. You may want to get an
external MIDI Thru Box or a MIDI patchbay. Thru Boxes are pretty cheap.
You don't really need a MIDI patchbay yet, but if you plan on getting more
MIDI gear, you'll need one eventually, so you might as well bypass the
Thru Box and go straight for the MIDI patchbay. I know. I originally
bought a Thru Box and quickly outgrew it. I now have two MIDI patchbays.
I hope this was helpful. You can also reach Blue Ribbon directly by
leaving a message here for Adam Nitti from Blue Ribbon.
Good luck and keep me posted.
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
Dom,
Midi data received at the Clav is echoed at the midi out because I have
Midi Merge on on the Clav. Thus the signal does get from TPP1 to the
Kurzweil because it is echoed from the Clav Midi In to the Clav Midi Out
to the Kurzweil. But for some reason this doesn't seem to happen until I
go through the ritual exchange of Midi Out 1 tool to Midi Out 2 tool, play
a second or two, then back to Midi Out 1 tool in B&P Pro. Then the
Kurzweil and everything else plays fine. Need more time to study the rest
of your message, but I'll get back to you.
Most of all, thanks for your interest, your help, and your concern!
Tom
Thomas,
Well, then I'm not sure what the problem might be. As I said, you
should leave a message here for Adam Nitti of Blue Ribbon.
Let me know what you find out and good luck.
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–