CompuServe Thread

#No more Amiga Toasters?

10 messages in this thread
#118730From: Frank VanellaAug 11, 1995 1:43 PM
Jerry, As usual your cogent response is appreciated. The points you make are certainly valid if applied to a "normal" circumstance with a "normal" product. While I agree with your logic, I still have a nagging feeling that the Amiga technology will defy logic and overcome the adversity it faces. Never in the short history of desktop computer technology has a platform gone out of production and become more valuable than it was when originally produced. Likewise there has never been an instance when one actually "came back" into production after it's demise. Obviously there is something about this platform which excepts it from logical norms. It's not just possible, but "probable" that Amiga technology will continue in one form or another for the next few years, because despite all the time that other platforms have had to develop their hardware, they still cannot perform in the video arena as well as the Amiga without overpriced and usually inferior special function add ons. As I have said on other occasions I have a number of different computer platforms, each with specific tools that work well in specific circumstances. If the Amiga can come to market bundled with the apporpriate hardware/software combination that will in fact sucessfully operate with multiple operating systems, it stands a very good chance of suceeding well enough to warrant further development and investment. This is not a "high hopes" dream, but an observation based on past experience. I have been involved in one way or another with Amiga technology since the A1000. My involvement with the first Amiga user's group put me in contact with a number of individuals who later became the driving forces in third party software/hardware development for the "platform that wouldn't die". It's interesting that with all the resources out there for development of mac and pc platforms, that there is stilll no equal or better product than the Amiga when it comes to video work. I truly believe that the individual efforts of many small developers has lead to that end. It is unfortunate that many of those developers are no longer "individually" independent. Many have been absorbed by larger companies or become employees in opoerations which now emphasize development on platforms much less incapable than the Amiga. If there is one doubt that I might express about the Amiga's future, it's that I fear these individuals who helped to make the platform so dynamic, are no longer in a position to continue development. The object of my posting you an imaginary script for a commercial was more of an indulgence than a prediction. It's my feeling that over the years the primary reason for the Amiga's poor performance in gaining market share had to do with the lack of proper marketing. Obviously it's easy to be an armchair quarterback after the game has been played, but I was always vocal about my criticism of CBM's lackluster performance in the marketing of the product. The demo spot script was my way of expressing what I feel would be a more apropriate way to position the technology. The distribution idea I posed is still viable since "shelf space" isn't a relative factor when you have a box that replaces two other machines by virtue of it's ability to run those other machine's software. The fact that the box also does video better than anything else would make it a standout for demos that would sell it well in consumer venues. Circuit City or Radio shack were just parenthetical references, any number of existing national or regional electronics retailer outlets would do nicely. Regards Frank
#118735From: Gary KleinerAug 11, 1995 3:05 PM
Frank, Thanks for the dose of optimism. It's nice to have a pep talk once in a while, especially with these doomsayers all over the place (just kidding Jerry). Regards, Gary
#118782From: Frank VanellaAug 11, 1995 10:03 PM
Gary, Thanks for your encouraging words. Not really trying to start a pep rally, just expressing an opinion. How's your FLyer doin? Frank
#118803From: Gary KleinerAug 12, 1995 2:09 AM
>>How's your FLyer doin?<< Well….since I got the Seagate 9gig back from Seagate, it is definitly recording with fewer problems.There seems to be no limit on duration of clips…no dropped field errors in Standard mode. I haven't tried the limit in HQ5 yet (got work to get done!!!) I had a project with about 60 elements. The first 20 or so were framestores with a few clips mixed in. The rest was clips.(Oh yeah, 4 or 5 audio clips were in there too). Towards the middle, I was getting a subtle stutter. Just the last 2 frames of each clip before it cut to the next (most were cuts). If I played it from the middle…..no stuttering. 'Sure hope 4.05 will solve this kind of stuff. I had made a 7 1/2 minute clip in HQ5, and it played back fine…..every other time. The audio was messed up otherwise. I remain optimistic, but I'll be glad when this thing actually SAVES me time editing instead of doubleing it! Regards, Gary
#118737From: J Saperstein/FontBankAug 11, 1995 3:15 PM
"Never in the short history of desktop computer technology has a platform gone out of production and become more valuable than it was when originally produced." This is true, but I really think the actions of people like myself buying up additional units to use as spares was a potent force in that price run-up. Unfortunately, neither can produce statistics to support our respective points. The Amiga is also unique in that it has a very large market following in Europe which may have played a great part in Escom's decision to pick up the whole kit and kaboodle. It's noteworthy that no American entity – even after all the bragging of Jim Drew and CEI – even made a meaningful bid. (No, Dell doesn't count – they made an offer they knew would be refused.) I have no doubt that the Amiga offers unique advantages for video. In fact, if you'll recall, I was among the first to opine that I felt the Amiga could survive handily as a niche machine – and I still believe that's possible. But from what I've seen of Escom's performance to date, even that proposition is doubtful. The marketplace is shifting, Frank. Computers are adaptable commodities. If a machine doesn't fit your purpose off the shelf, plug a card or two in. Personally I don't think even Apple will survive the Wintel stampede as a viable, large scale company. They too, in my opinion, are doomed to nichedom. There's absolutely no doubt that Commodore blew the game a long time ago. It has nothing to do with the technology and everything to do with the failure to market it. I'm not a friend of any platform. I use the machines as tools and that's about it. The realities are simply that I don't think the Amiga can overcome the dynamics of the marketplace as it exists today – the players on the Amiga side are just too weak. Jerry
#118762From: Trent K. JohnsonAug 11, 1995 9:24 PM
>>Personally I don't think even Apple will survive the Wintel stampede as a viable, large scale company. They too, in my opinion, are doomed to nichedom.<< Though there are many that would argue, I believe this to be the case, as well. Trent/ReAnimators
#118781From: Frank VanellaAug 11, 1995 10:03 PM
Jerry, Once again you and I share many of the same points of view regarding the viability of the Amiga as a niche machine. I think the point most relevant (and the one we tend to overlook) about Escom's decision is the fact that we in North America are NOT their primary market. This flys in the face of our arrogance in thinking we are the sole market in which a computer technology needs to capture in order to succeed. Your deft observation of Escom's view of the market in Europe is right on target. They don't need to appease the North American market's appetite for new technology that's cheaper/faster/better every six months. Here again, we all need to understand that the Euro marketplace is much different than ours and is likely going to be the primary support arena. This means that development of software for the NTSC version of the machine will lag behing the PAL version, as will software for same. to put it bluntly..We will just have to learn to suck hind tit. In the end, I think that this will be good for the Amiga technology as it will allow it to survive in an environment with a broad market which will encourage a larger number of independent developers (albeit European). With all due respect to your opinion about the run up of Amiga 4000's resale value by virtue of people like you and I who purchased "back up" machines, I disagree. Plainly Newtek's Video Toaster has been (and likely will continue to be inspite of what they may say publicly about their commitment to entering the PC marketplace) the impotice for the relative value of Amigas new or used. Frank
#118798From: J Saperstein/FontBankAug 12, 1995 12:31 AM
I dunno, Frank. Everything any of us has to say on the subject is speculation. None of us are able to predict the future (if only I had realized that geeky little kid at that trade show would become Bill Gates or that the guy asking me to invest would be writing 1-2-3. . . ). What I look at is the market's momentum – and I really doubt that there's much room for anything that doesn't conform to the Wintel standard – and maybe with good reason. You can buy a blowaway Pentium for under a couple of thousand these days. Equip it properly and it will do just about anything you want. Take a look at Apple and their absurd premium pricing on high end PowerPC's. Mine has been primarily a Mac shop since 1984 – and I'm abandoning ship. The Mac, particularly with the advent of Win95 and WinNT, simply no longer has any advantage. Sure, there's a lot of room for niche machines and we share the belief that the Amiga could prosper there. But even a niche machine has to be supported and I don't think the Amiga is going to find a first-rate support structure. Too much water has flowed under the bridge, too many people had rent to pay and have moved to other platforms. Realistically speaking, with only an 8% market share, Apple itself is a niche player and will probably occupy a smaller share yet within a couple of years. (Some financial and market analysts are predicting a 6% market share in 1996 and 5% by 1997.) The Amiga could well remain popular among the lower end video production and kiosk market for several years to come, but I don't think its glory days are over. Jerry
#118955From: Mark A. CareyAug 14, 1995 1:07 AM
Jerry, I have to agree with you….I use whatever platform I need to get the job done..and although I own six different Amigas, a Flyer, Sunrize 16, tons of software..and truely love the Amiga and understand how it works…I am now typing this on a PC, and am getting ready to purchase a Pentium 120, w/Windows NT, Perception, etc. because MS, will be the major force in the DTV world with support and hardwear. CBM didn't want to succeed with the Amiga, and Escom must think we are really desperate or stupid to pay four grand for a 4000 tower with an 0-40, and questionable support and/or software development. MS for all it's shortcomings is the absolute goliath of the softwear biz, and all the third party companies that matter are developing for Win '95 & Win/NT. Yes I'll keep my Amigas as long as they can still pay their way, but to build for the future I, like most video professionals, will have to jump on the MS train. Best Regards, Mark A. Carey Markone Video Services.
#118956From: J Saperstein/FontBankAug 14, 1995 2:07 AM
"Escom must think we are really desperate or stupid to pay four grand for a 4000 tower with an 0-40, and questionable support and/or software development. MS for all it's shortcomings is the absolute goliath of the softwear biz, and all the third party companies that matter are developing for Win '95 & Win/NT." Yep. "Yes I'll keep my Amigas as long as they can still pay their way, but to build for the future I, like most video professionals, will have to jump on the MS train." That's pretty much my thinking. I'm a hell of a lot more loyal to NewTek than I ever was to Commodore. If they get the Flyer to actually work and move it to the Windows platform, I'll go with them. Jerry