#3DS MAX and SGI/ALIAS
11 messages in this thread
Hi there,
This is the first time I have sent a message to one of the "big wigs" of 3DS
but I thought it was time.
I do CD-ROM and video tape production and am on the verge of starting a
production house. I love 3D Studio.
At the time I set up my in-house company production studio it was the best
price/performance choice since we had Pentiums already. Right now I have a
bunch networked to a HP9000 for normal data processing during the day and
rendering by night. Works fine for our present situation.
However, this past Friday I went to a Silicon Graphics demo of the the new
Indigo2 Extreme with a brand new high end graphic system using OpenGL. To say
that it knocked my socks off is an understatement. They did 30 fps at 1024×768
fully rendered and texture mapped in realtime. And not of one or two objects
but around 100 objects and probably 5000 faces each. The option that really got
me was four channels of simultaneous 640×480 video in realtime. This actually
represents a whopping drop in price for SGI workstations. Things that were only
possible on $100,000+ Onyx SGI systems are now possible on $35-40,000 Indigo2
machines.
Now, I am tired of having to wait 3 to 24 hours for my sequences to render (and
I do optimize the meshes). If you tell me I can do them in real time, I have to
take a hard look if for no other reason than productivity. One Indigo versus
300 Pentium 120s or 133s. Thats right, one Indigo versus 300 Pentiums in terms
of computational and graphics power. Even if I go to a DEC Alpha 300 Mhz or a
similar RISC system, I'm not sure the new Glint boards coming down the pike are
going to be fast enough. And the dual pipeline SGI video streams are the key.
The basic questions I would like to ask are:
1. Will MAX have a realtime preview mode fully shaded and rendered like
Alias/Wavefront? It was much easier to do the modeling and scene setup when you
can take the actual shaded object and place like you wanted it.
2. Will MAX have MPEG-1 or -2 compression options so I don't have to buy a PVS
board (which I don't mind) along with seven Micropolis 9 gig hard drives for
storage (which I do mind). A MARS board would do nicely instead.
3. Will MAX have the plug-ins operate in real time like Alias/Wavefront? The
particle systems I played with all showed in real time (smoke, fire,
explosions, vapor).
4. Will MAX be more geared toward the high end or is it planning to stay
positioned in the middle where it is now? By this I mean will it require a fast
Mips RISC workstation and probably the highest and fastest GLint board to
shortly come out to work properly (like in real time). I would like to know any
test results you have run so far and how they stack up againt the Indigo combo.
I believe that the high end graphics applications are your competition and not
the low end such as the Video Toaster/Lightwave combo. I can buy an Indigo with
the options I want and also with the software I want (Vega) for $69,999. That
is less money than I had planned for upgrading to generic RISC workstations and
going to 3DS MAX. Also they will throw in Alias version 7 for chump change.
Please E-mail me with your thoughts. Anyone else too. I love 3D Studio but I
have to start looking at options due to productivity.
1. Yes, MAX has a real time preview mode that is fully shaded. It was shown at
Siggraph @ 1024x768x15-bit color with *extremely* goods performance and real
time modeling options with real time feedback in all viewports.
2. Can not comment at this time.
3. Can not comment at this time.
4. No, it will not require workstation level hardware for superb performance.
This is thanks to the HDI (HOOPS Display Interface) that provides a FAST and
practical, software ONLY rendering solution (which, of course, is capable of
using hardware acceleration to its best).
5. $70,000 will buy you SEVERAL top performance NT workstations, all running 3D
Studio MAX.
You might want to wait for MAX before committing to what is a very sizeable
investment.
– Phil
Thanks Phil for the reply.
The thing that got me with the SGI workstation was the act that I would only
have to buy one of them and avoid the Win NT networking situation. That one
lonely SGI would replace all of my Pentiums now. Even though I can get a DEC
Alpha basic box for around $5000 I still am not sure it would provide the
solution due to the video streams. I have talked with three manufactures of new
OpenGL and GLint video cards and I can't get a handle on how well they work.
I was able to do setups in five minutes on the SGI what it typically takes me
about an hour do now on my Pentium 100 what with trial rendering and other
stuff.
Send me a reply. Thanks
3D acceleration cards are just becoming available on the PC market. The Glint
based boards are indeed fast and fairly cost effective when compared to Open-GL
equivalents. The video options are sure to change rapidly, and the clearest
choice will be able to be made when MAX ships. You're right in understanding
that video it the bottle neck. The PCI/VLB buses and MAX's HDI drivers are
finally making the work station performance of real time shaded modeling
possible (again, we were showing this at Siggraph). One thing to note is that
HDI technology is *significantly* faster than that of Open-GL.
Now that $70,000 SGI solution does provide incredible visual feedback. The
question you need to ask yourself is "is it worth it?", since MAX is going to
provide very respectable performance on a well equipped NT box. I realize it's
not an easy answer when MAX is a few months off.
– Phil
Thanks for the info.
I don't mind waiting and in fact I am certain that we will wait until MAX ships
to do an eval.
The SGI thing I was talking about is brand new. And next version of the video
cards is promised by November. SGI is talking 2 to 3 times faster than the
brand new setup they showed us at the presentation.
We are going to a demo at Paradigm here in Dallas next week They will be
running Vega which is the software we want on a SGI Indigo with the new video
system. We'll see what happens.
BTW, now if I can get a video tape or a beta copy of MAX?
Thanks for the info and keep beating up on me. While I've been doing computers
for 20 years, I've only been doing 3DS and animation for a year.
Mark,
I think you've succumbed to some serious hype <g>.
At MetroLight we run both SGI's (about 30+, many Indigo2's, running Wavefront,
Alias, Renderman, Prisms, VS) and Intel's (16 dual Pentium 100 m/boards, 3dsr4)
and 3ds is the fastest renderer we have. I believe, unless something has
changed, that hardware rendering is still limited to tests and won't be useful
for final rendering with the popular, industry standard, photo-realistic
renderers – (mainly Renderman, Alias for raytracing). Try running Renderman, or
more to the point Alias' renderer, on 1 Indigo2 and you'll know what waiting is
about.
If your needs don't run to Renderman quality or Alias' raytracing then maybe
you've found your Holy Grail.
Martin
Martin,
<<Try running Renderman, or more to the point Alias' renderer, on 1 Indigo2 and
you'll know what waiting is about.>>
yeah, I know what you mean – or try it even with an Onyx. I passed up using an
Onyx w/Alias last year in favor of my P90 w/3ds, because I was getting more
done. Working in true color with full texture mapping was fun, but that
doesn't mean squat when you actually render your stuff for video.
-Kyle
Kyle,
>> Working in true color with full texture mapping was fun, but that doesn't
mean squat when you actually render your stuff for video. <<
quite right. I can't imagine anyone being able to pass off the hardware shaded
stuff as final output, but maybe there are some who can get away with it.
Kyle,
The Indigo we demoed is a brand new OpenGL set of video cards for the Indigo2.
We demoed set 1. Set 2 is promised by November and promises 2-3 times the speed
of set 1. And set 1 was super.
We are going to a demo here in Dallas next week at Paradigm. I'll let everyone
know how well it worked or see if they are just blowing smoke.
Thanks for the info. Keep this semi-novice informed.
Mark,
>> The Indigo we demoed is a brand new OpenGL set of video cards for the
Indigo2. <<
I re-emphasize that these cards are NOT for final renders! Unless I'm very much
mistaken (which has happened before).
At your next demo, ask them if they are for final renders. OK? I'll ask my
fellow animators in the SGI department at work if they've heard of such a
boardset and what their intended use is.
Thanks for the info Martin,
I'll let you know.