#Windows 95 Intro
26 messages in this thread
<<< For so many manuals, it's the most appropriate place to read them. <G>>>>
And for some there's a secondary use for them in there…
I haven't used Word for Mac, but I agree CorelDraw is a pig, although I've been
able to get it to do some things. I still like Painter and Photoshop best.
I'm going to stay away from the Flyer thing – I understand your opinion on
this.
Have you tried Word 7.0 for Windows yet? It's much more stable than its
predecessor. Some of my macros don't carry over, though. Not surprising…
BarryVedros
ISI
"I'm going to stay away from the Flyer thing – I understand your opinion on
this."
I've decided to opt totally out of the Flyer.
Tim Jenison sitting with me and two lawyers promised me that I'd be able to
do frame accurate editing with it.
I can't.
Not today. Not yesterday. Not for all these past months.
Maybe someday.
But I'm too old to wait.
"Have you tried Word 7.0 for Windows yet?"
Yeah. Came with the Office95 beta. Pretty slick. In fact, Office95 as a whole
is a neat package.
Jerry
<<promised me that I'd be able to do frame accurate editing with it.>>
Well, the other point I haven't heard addressed is that since you are limited
to starting and ending edit points only on an even frame, you will on average
only be able to do a frame accurate edit 25% of the time. This a limitation of
the basic technology as applied.
I've already run into problems with this.
-dean
"since you are limited to starting and ending edit points only on an even
frame, you will on average only be able to do a frame accurate edit 25% of the
time"
Interesting point, Dean.
Could you explain the probability to me? Are you counting an in-out-in-out
sequence or what?
Jerry
<<explain the probability to me…Are you counting an in-out-in-out sequence or
what?>>
Right, there's a 50% chance that either the first or last frame of the selected
clip segment will be the frame you want to edit on.
It will be either the first frame of the ColorFrame or the second.
So only half the time when the end frame is the one you want, will the next
clip's start frame also be the one you want. Half of half is 25%.
Basically the Flyer is incapable of true frame accurate edits on demand. It
plays exactly the frames you select, but it restricts your selection. Not a
problem for lots of people, but yes a problem for lots of others.
I DON'T KNOW FOR A FACT,,, but my guess is that where the colorframe starts
compared to where you need it to start is random. If so; if you redigitize
several times you should get it to start where you need it. (Or NewTek could
add a function to bump the colorframe over by one frame–if that's technically
possible.)
Then the problem is trying to get both the head and tail of the clip to start
AND end where you want, if necessary. Again a 50% chance of being able to get
both. So the chance of being able to do a frame accurate edit on both ends of
a single clip segment becomes 1 in 8 (I think).
For both ends of two adjoining clips (4 precise frames) it goes to 1 in 16
(impractical at best). [Or slightly better if you try redigitizing a clip to
reposition the frame/colorframe.]
For 3 adjoining clips each needing frame accurate positioning on both ends,
figure it as a virtual impossibility.
I know this wasn't your original problem, but I thought it important to point
out.
Have a nice day.
Sorry.
regards,
dean
Interesting.
Of course, the bottom line is that the Flyer won't handle editing for action
as it stands.
Jerry
Jerry,
We all know that –
>Tim Jenison sitting with me and two lawyers promised me that I'd be able >to
do frame accurate editing with it. < What you seem to have forgotten is that
Chuck said several weeks ago that Traz was working on the action edit approach
detailed here and would have it in the 4.1 release.
How quickly we forget.
How much do you want for your Flyer?
Hank
Videology, Inc Where you always get P.O.M.P. and
Service under all circumstances
"What you seem to have forgotten is that Chuck said several weeks ago that Traz
was working on the action edit approach detailed here and would have it in the
4.1 release."
No, Hank, I haven't forgotten. I asked Chuck again a few days ago for an
estimate of 4.1's release date.
Let's be real – the action editing capability I was promised was supposed to
be there months and months in the past – not months in the future.
It's beyond the point of mere frustration.
"How much do you want for your Flyer?"
I'm interested in selling all of my Amiga related gear.
I'll send you a list as well as posting it in the Amiga Classifieds and
elsewhere.
Jerry
Hello, Jerry, my friend! I remember quite clearly the conversation that we had
about "cutting action" as you refer to it. By the way, "cutting action" is not
a commonly used, well defined term among video editors. I just got off the
phone with a well known Hollywood editor who was mystified by the term.
I remember the conversation as a telephone conversation, which took place after
that meeting in your lawyer's office. Anyway, I remember you being quite
concerned that you would not be able to cut between two clips containing the
same action and making the action match. The example you used was: A golfer
swings his club. As the club reaches a certain point, say for example, when it
contacts the ball, a cut is made to another shot, say a wide shot, of the same
golfer as his club continues to swing past the tee.
You were concerned because you had heard somewhere that the only way to
accomplish this on the Flyer was to blindly set the in and out points on each
clip and then play the project to see if the shots matched.
I remember telling you that that was not the way it worked. That, instead, as
you drag the in and out points on any particular clip, the actual video appears
on the toaster output monitor, and continually updates the displayed frame as
the in or out point is dragged.
Thus, I explained, what you would do is adjust the outpoint on the first clip,
watching the toaster output, until the golf club was just striking the ball.
Then you would open the control panel on the second clip, and adjust the In
point, looking for the frame that showed the club at that same position, or
actually just a tad later.
Upon hearing this I recall you saying something to the effect that you didn't
realize the video actually appeared on the screen while adjusting the edit
points. You then said that this answered your concern.
Now, as far as I'm concerned this functionality DOES enable you to cut two
scenes so the action matches. Since that discussion, an editor I know suggested
that, since many Toaster systems have three monitors, (main out, preview, and
user interface), that it would seem possible to route the LAST FRAME of the
PREVIOUS CLIP to the preview monitor while adjusting the IN POINT on the
CURRENT CLIP.
Now this seems like a wonderful idea, and in fact it is currently operational
in the latest version back in AlcaTraz. We call it "tail on preview" and it
seems like a keeper!
I think that somewhere along the way, perhaps from the beginning, you
associated "cutting action" to the above mentioned "tail on preview" feature. I
certainly don't recall ever discussing such a feature with you at any time. If
that's what you were referring to in that phone conversation, I'm sorry, I just
didn't hear it that way!
At any rate, all's well that ends well. "tail on preview" is operational in the
back room. With luck it will make it into the next rev. It will definitely be
in 4.1 as we've said before.
With that in mind, Jerry, I think you're picking a pretty bad time to sell your
Flyer system! But, I will offer to buy it from you for the exact amount you
paid me for it! ( $00000.00 )
Anyway, I think you're going to love the Flyer if you start using the latest
software. It's finally getting real close to what I envisioned way back in
1987, when we started work on it. (God how time flies when you're having
flyers!)
I'm anxious to see that concert footage when you get it edited. Who knows? You
may end up getting into the video post production business! It is my sincerest
hope that the Flyer will enable non-video experts to produce television without
a huge budget, a huge edit suite, and a huge stack of user manuals! Rome wasn't
built in a day, though.
'course, I didn't design Rome.
REGARDS!
Tim
"I will offer to buy it from you for the exact amount you paid me for it! (
$00000.00 )"
Ah, how I wish that were true, Tim. You got a license to include our entire
font library with Video Toaster 3.0. Other licensees at the time were paying us
as much as $20 a unit for the privilege.
How many units of Video Toaster 3.x shipped, Tim? <G>
All I wanted from the deal – and all I still want – is a system that I can
cut action on. No matter what you call the process, I think the meaning is
clear.
"I remember you being quite concerned that you would not be able to cut between
two clips containing the same action and making the action match. The example
you used was: A golfer swings his club. As the club reaches a certain point,
say for example, when it contacts the ball, a cut is made to another shot, say
a wide shot, of the same golfer as his club continues to swing past the tee."
Right you are!
Can I do it on the Flyer *today* as a straight-forward process?
"Thus, I explained, what you would do is adjust the outpoint on the first clip,
watching the toaster output, until the golf club was just striking the ball.
Then you would open the control panel on the second clip, and adjust the In
point, looking for the frame that showed the club at that same position, or
actually just a tad later."
Indeed – but what you didn't say is that I would have to guess as to where
one sequence ended because it wasn't visible on the screen when I went to fetch
the next, suceeding clip.
Having a literal "photographic memory" wasn't supposed to be a requirement.
"Now, as far as I'm concerned this functionality DOES enable you to cut two
scenes so the action matches"
Wanna try it? I'll supply the footage.
"I think that somewhere along the way, perhaps from the beginning, you
associated "cutting action" to the above mentioned "tail on preview" feature."
You bet I did. It's the only logical way to do it. Bear in mind that I had
never seen a Flyer in operation. Had I the opportunity, I would have
immediately seen the flaw.
"It will definitely be in 4.1"
I don't doubt this.
My question is when?
It's been a couple of years for me, Tim, waiting for the system I originally
thought I would be getting from NewTek.
I'm not getting any younger.
So, Tim, while I appreciate your public explanation here, I still want to
know when this capability will be released – in a fully usable, reasonably bug
free form?
As it stands, I'm so discouraged by the whole process that I haven't even
reinstalled my Flyer or Toaster since they were returned from NewTek for
revision and repair, respectively.
Jerry
>>>Ah, how I wish that were true, Tim. You got a license to include our
entire font library with Video Toaster 3.0. Other licensees at the time were
paying us as much as $20 a unit for the privilege.<<<<
According to our contract, you traded the fonts for a Video Toaster system and
several video peripherals, not a flyer system. I hate to retread old arguments
here, Jerry. We actually overfulfilled our obligation, giving you several other
pieces of video equipment. Our goal at that point was simply to make you happy.
The items specified in the contract were long since delivered.
As you recall, you were not happy and decided to sue us. I was in federal
court when the judge suggested that we should go off and work this out among
ourselves. We did that in your lawyer's office. Again, in the interest of
making you happy, I offered to GIVE you a Flyer system. Again, NewTek had
already supplied all the equipment required by the contract. My hope was to get
you the best editing system possible, as a personal favor. I hoped it would
please you, and I still do.
My concern is that folks here who are not privy to all the details might infer
from your remarks that NewTek had somehow screwed you. I know that's not what
you're saying, but it might be read that way.
>>> Wanna try it? I'll supply the footage.<<<
Well, sure, what's the point? I do it all the time, and so do other editors
using all kinds of systems. Actually the golf club example was YOUR example in
case you've forgotten our conversation. The Flyer works and has always worked
the way I described it in that conversation.
>>> It's been a couple of years for me, Tim, waiting for the system I
originally thought I would be getting from NewTek.<<<
Again, the original agreement was for a Video Toaster system, not a Flyer. When
I offered you the Flyer, I indicated that I could not guarantee a completion
date. I'm not happy about the amount of time this stuff takes, any more than
you are! We've just released 4.06 a major rewrite of the program that is light
years ahead of the version you have. Honestly, I don't understand you're
obsession with the "tail on preview" feature. It's nice, but certainly not
orgasmic! I urge you to try the latest revision. I think you'll be very
pleasantly surprised.
>>> I'm not getting any younger.<<<
I certainly never accused you of this!
In fact, let me submit that life is too short to sit around with lawyers with
the meter running. Jerry, all I want out of this situation is to make you a
happy Flyer owner. My first responsibility is to make my customers happy,
however. For that reason, we are spending whatever time it takes to make 4.1 an
extremely solid version. If you would like a preliminary copy with the "tail on
preview", that could be arranged. It will not be bug-free. Let me know if you'd
like to try it.
Knowing your situation, I'd suggest waiting just a TAD longer and get a solid
version.
your humble servant
Tim Jenison
Tim:
I've always refrained from discussing our business relationship here since it
really wasn't anybody else's concern but ours.
But since you've gone into detail, so will I.
At the time we were approached by NewTek, we were licensing the FontBank type
library to others. One of those licensees, selling a product priced similarly
to the Video Toaster, paid us a royalty of $20 per unit.
NewTek negotiated an agreement to license the FontBank product in exchange
for a "high-end" video editing system including the Video Toaster.
Street rumor has it that NewTek sold anywhere from 8,000 to 80,000 Video
Toaster 3.x units. At $20 a unit royalty, that would have amounted to between
$160,000 and $1,600,000 in revenue to us. Even at our lowest royalty of the
time, on products that sold for far, far less, the equivalent royalty income
would have been between $40,000 and $400,000.
I think any reasonable person would conclude that you got one hell of a
bargain, a truly special deal.
Unfortunately, I don't think I did.
The original system supplied was anything but "high-end" and I've got the
expert opinions supporting that contention.
All I've ever wanted in exchange for the license was a system on which I
could cut action, matching movements to the exact frame. Use whatever term you
want to describe the process, but I don't think there can be any
misunderstanding as to intent.
"I do it all the time, and so do other editors using all kinds of systems.
Actually the golf club example was YOUR example in case you've forgotten our
conversation. The Flyer works and has always worked the way I described it in
that conversation."
Indeed it was my example – and I'd like to see you do it on the Flyer in one
try.
"Honestly, I don't understand you're obsession with the "tail on preview"
feature."
Call that feature whatever you want to: without it, you can't seriously cut
action or match frames on the Flyer without engaging in a "trial-and-error"
process.
"If you would like a preliminary copy with the "tail on preview", that could be
arranged. It will not be bug-free. Let me know if you'd like to try it."
Absolutely! I've volunteered for the beta list before and while I most
certainly lack the expertise of others in many areas, I certainly can be of
assistance in working out any bugs in a "tail on preview" process or whatever
you want to call it.
Believe it or not, Tim, I am a major big time NewTek supporter. I think the
Video Toaster is the cat's meow and that the Flyer definitely has potential.
Moreoever, I feel a fellowship with every other entrepreneur who faces
well-heeled competitors and is always just a step ahead of the marketplace.
By the same token, I feel that I gave NewTek an incredibly sweet deal when
licensing our fonts – and I don't feel that spirit has been fully reciprocated
– and I am just plain tired of waiting.
Your eternal supporter,
Jerry
>I've always refrained from discussing our business relationship here since >it
really wasn't anybody else's concern but ours.
I feel exactly the same way, Jerry. I am just responding to your various
references to "sitting with Jenison and two lawyers" and promising this and
that, the implication being that I have somehow reneged or misrepresented
something, in the context of our business relationship. Believe me I wouldn't
have brought it up otherwise.
>NewTek negotiated an agreement to license the FontBank product in exchange
>for a "high-end" video editing system including the Video Toaster.
I was not personally involved in any of thoses negotiations, Jerry. I did sign
the resulting contract, which specified what you were to receive. We delivered
those things and a lot more.
>>> I think any reasonable person would conclude that you got one hell of a
>>>bargain, a truly special deal. >>> Unfortunately, I don't think I did.
Well, I guess it stands to reason that if you think I got too good a deal, you
must have gotten the short end of the stick. I'm sorry you feel that way, and I
don't agree, but I don't think anyone forced you to make the deal.
>The original system supplied was anything but "high-end" and I've got the
>expert opinions supporting that contention.
That's why folks put things in writing. You did, and I sent you everything on
the list.
>All I've ever wanted in exchange for the license was a system on which I
>could cut action, matching movements to the exact frame. Use whatever term you
>want to describe the process, but I don't think there can be any
>misunderstanding as to intent.
On the contrary, a misunderstanding is exactly what we have had.
> Indeed it was my example – and I'd like to see you do it on the Flyer in one
>try.
Where exactly do you predict I will run into difficulty? .. given your
example…
> Call that feature whatever you want to: without it, you can't seriously cut
>action or match frames on the Flyer without engaging in a "trial-and-error"
>process.
"Tail on preview" is an excellent addition to the Flyer, and you should find it
useful. However, editing, even with this feature, is inherently a trial and
error process. Upon previewing an edit, many times you will make adjustments.
Seeing the tail doesn't tell exactly how the edit will look and feel.
Fortunately with a non-linear system, previewing edits is much quicker than
with tape editing. And. of course, once you are happy with the edit, you're
done. You don't have to wait for the edit controller and tape machines to
actually perform the edit.
> Believe it or not, Tim, I am a major big time NewTek supporter. I think the
>Video Toaster is the cat's meow and that the Flyer definitely has potential.
Jerry, I am reading a log of your past messages, and whether you are aware of
it or not, they come off as very antagonistic. They impugn my ethics and
disparage our efforts to improve our products. We don't deserve this.
> By the same token, I feel that I gave NewTek an incredibly sweet deal when
>licensing our fonts – and I don't feel that spirit has been fully reciprocated
>- and I am just plain tired of waiting.
Well, I must admit my spirit was a little dampened by all the legal and travel
expenses I incurred, but, goldarn it, I just LIKE you, ya old galoot! Again, I
gave you a Flyer to make you happy. Give me a chance to get you going. I
honestly think it's the best NLE system for your needs. Bugs? Yes.
Ideosyncrasies? Yeah. Improving dramatically? You better believe it!
your friend
Tim
Tim:
If every one else here hasn't said it already Nice to see you drop by. Sorry
it couldn't be for a more pleasent reason. I just spent a half hour testing
this cutting on action thing. My conclusion was that its a snap. It is in fact
much easier on the flyer, as it stand today, than on many other systems. The
best part was that I hadn't even realized I was doing somthing that "can't
seriously" be done on the flyer. It was just so natural. I've been a Producer,
an edit supervisor, and now (much thanks to you) a creative consultant for a TV
Network, and I love the way this thing works. Now get back to work, and think
up somthing else that will change the future!
Brad Hayes
Hayes Visual Communication
Brad:
You're in the Chicago area, right?
I'd very much like to see how you cut action on the Flyer.
Can we arrange a meeting?
Jerry
Thank you, on Tim's behalf, and I'll see he gets your message!
Chuck.
Actually, Tim, it was the infamous Chuck Baker who started all this. I
referred to you simply as a "high ranking NewTekian" – and then that Baker guy
declared that it was Tim Jenison and to stop using euphemisms.
Unfortunately Chuck is too valuable to fire, so you'll just have to omit his
bonus of a once weekly flogging. That'll really hurt him.
Send me the 4.1 beta or whatever version it is that has the "tail on preview"
feature and I'll make my decisions based on that.
"They impugn my ethics and disparage our efforts to improve our products"
From my perspective, Tim, this is not the case. I have no doubt of NewTek's
attempts to make the Flyer viable – it's the time frame that concerns me.
"I just LIKE you, ya old galoot!"
Aside from the obvious evidence of actionable ageism, the feeling's mutual.
Jerry
Jerry
<<<Call that feature whatever you want to: without it, you can't seriously cut
action or match frames on the Flyer without engaging in a "trial-and-error"
process.>>>
Tim
<<<However, editing, even with this feature, is inherently a trial and error
process. Upon previewing an edit, many times you will make adjustments. Seeing
the tail doesn't tell exactly how the edit will look and feel. Fortunately with
a non-linear system, previewing edits is much quicker than with tape editing.
And. of course, once you are happy with the edit, you're done. You don't have
to wait for the edit controller and tape machines to actually perform the
edit.>>>
Hi Tim
Thanks for making an appearance here in the forum. Regardless of the
prevailing circumstances, it's real show of support for us users.
I don't want to knock Jerry here, but all I hear is this phrase "cut on
action… cut on action…" That's a pretty broad term in an editing sense. I
don't know what dealings or promises are between you guys to cause Jerry to
fixate on this proposed function of the Flyer (it's not my business anyway).
It seems those dealings may affect how the "cut to action" is received.
I would enjoy sitting down with Jerry and demonstrating all the ways you can
creatively cut to action. I've done it for classfuls of film students.
The simplest 'plain white paper' form of cutting to action is to have two
shots, taken from different angles, of one action. The golf swing is a
classroom example. Unless you have a very good actor that can match action in
successive takes, you need a two camera shoot from two different angles. To be
able to match-edit the action (exactly) on the first try, both cameras must be
synched to a single time code source so that both reels have the same exact TC
numbers for each frame of the action. This can be taken to an editing system
with EDL capability where the machines lock together by the numbers. Set an
edit point, push the button and the cut is made to the edit master. You don't
even have to see it happen during the actual edit and it doesn't need to be on
a non-linear system.
The advantage of NLE is that an editor/director can conform an edit, while
trying various combinations on the fly (no pun) to improve the creativity of
the project. The 'trial and error' process, IMHO, brings out the best in a
project.
I came from a film shooting and editing background into video because I could
make money steadily with video in this market. I came into a company that had
a history of using the Video Toaster since it's first incarnation. I had never
touched a Toaster, much less an Amiga, until this past January when we got a
Flyer system. These 'old-timers' tell me that the Flyer NLE has been the
original concept that Newtek was shooting for since the beginning. We're still
waiting for hardware to catch up with all of our dreams, but the Flyer is still
way ahead of the competition in it's price range.
Since I've been working with non-linear systems, especially the Flyer, I can't
imagine how I did 'tape to tape' editing before.
Tim, thanks for a great product. I'm looking forward to the continued growth
and capability of the Flyer.
BarryVedros
ISI
Sorry for butting in but where's the win 95 part.
Tim maybe If you give Jerry two UVW-1800's and Amilink he'll have a high
quality cut to action suite, now. If it were me as I am I'll wait for you guys
to get finished. Its usually less agravating than Beta testing. Hell now I feel
like I'm bete testing Windows NT, go figure. While your here Tim, I just wanted
to say thanks. And Jerry's fonts go a LONG wayt in making the Toaster useful.
Thank you too. Jerry.
Toastin' since 1990
"Thank you too. Jerry."
Thanks for the thanks, John.
Jerry
Tim,
I wouldn't be too concerned with how the rest of us in the forum, react to
Jerry's constant, unconstuctive and repetitive complaining.
I, for one, have learned to ignore him.
Regards,
Gary
"I, for one, have learned to ignore him"
Golly gee.
Jerry
Very nice to see the boss on the boards, Mr. Jenison!
As a long time Toaster/LightWave user, I just wanted the chance to say a quick
"thanks!" for all of your vision, hard work, and ultimate reshaping of the
video industry as we now know it.
LightWave has allowed me to be completely self-employed, doing exactly what I
love to do.
So, here it is:
Thanks, and best wishes for the future!
Sincerely,
Trent/ReAnimators
I'll be sure Tim gets your message, Trent, and on his behalf, I thank you for
the kind words!
Chuck.
Hi Chuck –
I would say that with the realease of 4.06 NewTek is proving again that it can
deliver. When I see messages that ask "What with all you've put in 4.06, what
is left for 4.1?" I know the answer is great.
Thanks to you, and Tim, for the support and on-line liason.
Hank
Videology, Inc Where you always get P.O.M.P. and
Service under all circumstances
Thanks for the kind words, Hank, both from me and on behalf of Tim and the rest
of NewTek. The responce has been overwhelmingly good, and we are hard at work
on those areas where problems have cropped up. uh, er, response.
Chuck.