#I think …
26 messages in this thread
Mark,
I think the key words were "was working on", and "would have been".
So far, nobody has bought anything, and nothing is being developed at this
time. (At least in terms of official Amiga product.)
There are growing signs that neither group is well financed. (Were this so,
somebody would have upped the offer to get things rolling before the Amiga
market finishes completely collapsing. And certanly a well financed group
could offer enough to blow the other group out of the water. Alex has already
admitted that his investors are nervous. For all of David's posturing, he has
shown little financial staying power also. If he is as well financed as he
claims it should have been no problem to submit a bid that would have finished
off Alex.)
From what I have been able to derive from some releases and simple math, the
bids are less than 10 cents on the dollar for what C= owes to creditors. This
figure has ben placed at around $300 million. Which means that the bids are
probably under $30 million. If the groups are having trouble scraping up that
kind of money, where will the dollars for development and marketing come from?
What many in this area tend to forget is that the trustees owe us nothing.
(Unless some here are C= creditors.) They also have no vested interest in the
survival of the Amiga as a computer. What they are responsible for is to see
that the greatest amount of money is received for the assets. If that means
piecing it out to different parties, that is what they will do.
From what I've seen so far, these knights on stallions are seeming more like
stable boy pretenders riding burros.
Rather than hold off on that fancy Amiga, and buying a 1200 to tide you over,
I suggest that if you are deciding to invest more money in Amiga technology you
best buy what it is you want now, as it may be the last there will ever be.
– Alex… Celebrating 10 years on Compuserve
I've been lurking here for months watching these messages and
wondering how everyone could be so naive as to think that the Amiga
will ever see production again, much less R&D. The last words of your
message are probably the most prophetic and accurate of all the
sentiments that have been expressed in all these messages about the
Amiga's fate. The Amigas that presently exist are all that we will
ever see of this machine. No matter what the outcome of the sorry
liquidation of CBM, there will be no further extension of this
technology. No company has either the financial capability nor the
interest. The Amiga is an irrellevant entity in the universe.
Rich
IMNSHO,
I liked you better when you were lurking. *8^)
-= Vance =- Image Master
Internet: viking@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
"Rich, at Sun LihoGraphic Arts"
What happened ? Did the keys stick on that relic of a PC (or worse yet,
an elitist, desktop-publishing, forked filed, Mac) you're probably using?
Irrelevant is spelled with one "l". You could not possibly own an Amiga
and say those *>>horrid<<* things about her. Fat Agnes, herself, would
probably come out of her socket and stomp all over your worthless hide.
(Or, at the very least, burn up with embarrassment <g>).
I've been lurking myself for quite some time, and my response to that last
comment is probably going to be the mildest you will get here. ;'D
If you are working in the Lithographic Arts community, you must
surely know what it is like to hear forecasts of doom for an entire
industry. I work in it daily, and the printed page is said to be
going the way of the buggy whip. Direct-to-plate, direct-to-press,
direct-to-CD-reader, everyone has their predictions, but nobody likes
a vulture who spreads doom and gloom. Some of us have to work in the
pressroom, in the sales office, in desktop, stripping, proofing or
what have you, every day; but until we are given pink slips, most of
us prefer to be a little naive, hoping that someone might want that
rag that we are printing. Go figure! And, go away birdie!
I leave you with a quote from one of my favorite old TV shows, (which
also suffered those kind of doom and gloom comments from critics,
pundits and know-it-all executives intent on putting it into an early
grave) as follows:
Sulu sez, (as a giggling nemesis yells "Die, die, die, you're all
gonna die" just before his bodily parts get beamed out, >>maximum
dispersion<< into space) "He sure talks gloomy" !:'D
Hal Waterhouse
Zortchin' down the Digital Dirt Road, on Autopilot\____|\
o/~ o/~ Goin' to Kansas City o/~ o/~ / |/
Hal,
(to Hal, from Hal <muttering>)
You might have known, if you correct another's spelling your own goes to
blazes.
I meant Lithographic. …….. Sheesh.
Hal
Zortchin' down the Digital Dirt Road, on Autopilot\____|\
o/~ o/~ Goin' to Kansas City o/~ o/~ / |/
That's okay.. he said "presently" when he meant "at present" too… 🙂
Hal,
I wondered what invectives my message would generate. 8)
No one can claim more fondness for this machine. I resisted posting that
particular kind of message for a while, until Alex said exactly what I thought
needed to be said. If you're angry at me for the content of my message, OK.
That's your problem. We all wouldn't be on this forum if we didn't feel very
positively about the Amiga. I just stated my view of reality, emotions aside. I
ran the heart of business on Amigas for quite a while. I can't now, and I know
I never will be able to again.
To put this situation in real perspective, think of this. My business and much
of the Graphics Arts Industry is based on and in dependent on the Mac. Apple
Computer has more credibility, marketing savvy, willingness to experiment, R&D
capability than CBM ever had. The Mac has, if not _the_ best user interface in
the computer universe, than certainly one of the best.
(oops, sentence up there should have read …Graphics Arts Industry is based on
and is dependent on the Mac…)
With all this going for it, with the seemingly solid position the Mac
has in so many areas, with all the fervor that Mac Maniacs can muster
about the Mac, the Mac is probably going to suffer a similar fate.
The Mac may not die, Apple Computer may not go out of business, but
in not too short a time, the Mac may just become irrelevant (there,
I've spelled it right 8). Apple simply may not be able to attract
enough developers as the entire world slides into the
Intel/Microsoft/Windows morass. No matter how good the Mac Power PC
is, I think that Apple, too, is doomed.
Now, if that's true, than our own pathetic wailing about our wonderful
Amiga is truly insignificant.
BTW, in _any_ case Amiga technology, as wonderful as it was when
introduced, in its present form _is_ irrelevent commercially.
I'm not the enemy. Just a slob trying to make a living and some sense
out of this world. Merry Christmas, and keep on hoping.
Irrelevent? Interesting, SCALA doesn't think it is 'irrelevent'. Do
you have an Amiga 4000 you'd like to sell? Our commercial customers
need some Amigas, and they need them now. 🙂
Nope. No 4000's. Got some 3000s and 2000s that I'll hold onto for a
while. I hope Scala is seriously looking at Intel or PowerPC
platforms as development areas. Irrelevant means that the machine
does not affect the marketplace. It does not imply anything about the
importance of the design or the forethought that the machine once
represented.
Tell me in a few more months if the Amiga has much relevence to
Scala's planI know people who would buy as many NeXT boxes as they
could, if they could. Is the NeXT relevent to the computing universe
in any way? Nope. Was it a brilliant machine? Yup. But its now
irellevent. As is CP/M, daisy wheel printers, 300 baud modems. All
brilliant examples of their technology, then. And absolutely
necessary for us to be where we are now. But they don't affect us any
more. What I've said is that the Amiga has moved into that category
of things.
> Irrelevent? Interesting, SCALA doesn't think it is 'irrelevent'.
Oh, well, SCALA, who are _you_? Nobody who buys Excel at his local
CompUSA has ever heard of SCALA….
And, yes, our idiot director of the Ranger Project _still_ insists
that "If it isn't Microsoft, it isn't worth anything" … and he's
now up to HIS ass in alligators from all the schools that we're
trying to foist this system onto who keep INSISTING (what fools they)
that the software be re-written to run on all these Macs that schools
have lying around….
— And it's "irrelevant", anyway (hehehe)….
"A 'Creative Amiga'? Hell, we ALL knew that…."
Mr. C
Boy do you need to get a life….
I can't imagine anyone with anything less than avid interest in the Amiga,
hanging around here for _months_ watching the goings on. Even for the highly
interested, the liquidation proceedings are about like watching paint dry.
There possibly could be more Amigas, but I doubt they will be on the scale
that many users hope they will be. Waaaay back when Texas Instruments pulled
the plug on the TI 99/4a, a successor was developed and marketed by a company
that obtained the rights. It had a 16 bit processor, and was a genuine
improvement. However it didn't last long, and the only sales were to die hards
who wanted more power, and were not about to switch.
I could see a small market for Amiga based video workstations. At least
untill the Intel/Mac technology gets to the point where they can readily
achieve the same results. Were sales sufficient I could even see enough R&D to
make things go a little furhter and last a little longer.
However, as a general use PC with computers available in stores and mass
merchandisers, I sincerely doubt that the parties interested have the backing
to pull it off. There are parties who are interested, and parties who do have
the money to pull it off. However, they are not the same folks.
As for relevancy…. The Mac and the PC can thank the Amiga for features they
now enjoy. ie. Multitaksing, quality sound, and multicolor multimedia
capabilities.
When the Amiga came out, the PC owners felt that nobody needed all those
colors, and multitasking on a home computer was worthless. Apple's view of the
world was in black and white. Things changed rapidly after the introduction of
the Amiga. While unfortunnately C= was not able to maintain the technological
lead they started with, you can bet your bottom dollar that the Amiga was
analyzed seven ways from sunday to determine how to incorporate its advanced
features into competitors machines and software.
Saying the Amiga is irrelevant, is like saying the Wright Bros. are
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irrelevant. It was a pathfinder, and those who follow will take those
advances in hardware and software even further, whther or not the box says
Amiga on the side. Blitters, graphics coprocessors, quality sound, and
multitasking are not going to go away just because the Amiga does.
PS: Does your dad know you are playing with his account when he's not around?
– Alex… Celebrating 10 years on Compuserve
Cheers Alex,
I agree with your analysis of the situation. That's what I said in my first
message. The individual components of the Amiga hardware and software are
exactly what you say they are. And they are not unique to the Amiga, they are
as important to computing as they were before the Amiga. The machine that now
exists called Amiga, however, is irelleva irellevant as a commercial product or
as a driving force in computer development.
It's interesting how personal attacks happen here when someone voices an
opinion or describes reality in a way that someone else doesn't like.
'Lurking here for months' means I have checked the message traffic a couple of
times a week, without replying to any particular messages, until yours.
Well anyhow,
Merry Christmas.
Rich
"It's interesting how personal attacks happen here when someone voices an
opinion or describes reality in a way that someone else doesn't like."
Ain't that the truth? <G> Makes book burning look tame by comparison.
Jerry
-> I've been lurking here for months watching these messages and wondering
how everyone could be so naive as to think that the Amiga will ever see
production again, much less R&D.
-> The Amiga is an irrellevant entity in the universe.
Do you mind if I ask you a question? Why do you come to a forum to
knock a computer platform and insult forum members by calling them
"naive?" Do you have a lot of extra time and money?
Leslie,
I didn't knock anything, and I meant no insult to anyone. Sorry that you took
it that way. What I'm finding is that if anything but hope and optimism is
expressed about the Amiga, than the bearer of those words gets the anger
directed at him that is really intended for the SOBs that destroyed CBM. Did
the word lurking bother you?
It's a common term on the nets. Maybe I should have said that I have been
repectfully reading the messages here.
I don't like what has happened any more than you or others. A few months ago I
had to make an expensive decision based on the collapse of CBM. My company
survives on computers and I couldn't risk mission critical work on a platform
that suddenly had no manufacturer (to say nothing of that manufacturer's
previous performance in terms of support). I am a management consultant as well
as the head of my own company. I would advise any CEO to fire a manager who
recommended using Amigas at this time. Does that offend you? Sorry. My position
is fiscally responsible. The opposite would not be. Yes, I think it is naive
for anyone to expect that new R&D is going to occur for the Amiga. I am as
disappointed about that as you probably are. I'm just stating my read of the
whole situation. I don't believe most of what has been 'promised' by the
several groups that are trying to buy CBM's bones, and even if their intentions
are very honorable, I don't think there is going to be anything to save.
I can't fault anyone here for all the hoping and wishful thinking that has been
a constant thread. I'm just much more pessimistic about this topic than you
want to be, or want to hear anyone else be.
Rich
No, the work "lurking" doesn't bother me. I do it myself sometimes.
It also doesn't bother me that you have no faith in the future of the
Amiga.
What I don't understand is why someone will hang out in a forum he no
longer has interest in, and call people naive for thinking that some
compay will purchase the technology and move it forward. For instance, if
Atari were to wind up in Chapter 11 it wouldn't even occur to me to hang
out in the Atari fora and tell the members that they are being naive for
thinking someone will bail them out. I don't have the time or the money
to waste. I'm not angry. I am curious about your reasons.
What gives you the right to declare that I "…no longer [have]
interest in …" this forum. As long as there is an Amiga forum I'll
have interest in it. If someone were to post a question about
accomplishing something on their (ah, 'irrelevent') machine, and I
had the answer, you'd see my reply. If you want to cry in your beer
go ahead. Life goes on. If your expectation of this forum is a place
where you will find only warm fuzzies and assurances that everything
is going to be all right, well…
Wake up. Look at the situation. My dues are all paid up. So are yours. Welcome
to the likes of CP/M forums, OS-9 forums, NeXT groups NeXT groups, and soon,
maybe even Mac _and_ DOS. Where discussions are almost exclusively of what once
was, and of what might have been if only
If you want any more confirmation of this – look at the developers who have
totally abandoned any thought of development for Amiga.
OK. They didn't come on this forum and use words as blunt as I.
Anyway, Happy holidays.
Rich
> Welcome to the likes of CP/M forums, OS-9 forums, NeXT groups
Do you go to their forums and harass them about how "naive" they are?
"A 'Creative Amiga'? Hell, we ALL knew that…."
Mr. C
Mr. C
Yes, I think it is naive to expect that any new R&D is going to happen
for the machine that we havwe known as Amiga. I have as right to
state my opinion as anyone here I really am surprised at the reaction
this has gotten. I never meant for my comments to "harass" anyone.
Why in the world you or anyone else has taken it that way is just
bizarre now.
If anyone has a right to be angry about the current state of affairs,
I do. Not that my level of disappointment or anger is any greater
than anyone else's. I just spent tons of money based on the demise of
CBM Amiga developers have made similar business decisions over the
last several years. All things being what they are, those of us who
have made these decisions have concluded that the machine is not a
viable platform in the commercial world. We (the Amiga users) have
been burnt, scarred, and misled for over _nine_ years. Yes, at this
point I believe it is naive to expect a Phoenix-like re-appearance of
your beloved Amiga.
Stop attacking someone who has expressed an opinion you don't like. I
didn't attack you, and if my words seemed to, then I apologize. But I
have used the word 'apoligize' for the last time in this regard. If
you disagree with me, fine. But please, stop whining.
I just wanted to know, in light of the things you have said (i.e. the
technology at a dead end in your opinion), is why you are here? I'm sorry
if this question for some reason offends you. It isn't intentional.
Yes, I have noticed the developers who have gone as well as those who
have slowed down and those who have stayed. In light of the fact that no
new machines are being produced I have to give high marks to those still
deveolping for the Amiga and I'll keep them in mind when I spend my money
regardless how things turn out.
In spite of what you may think I'm not one of those naive Amiga zelots.
Personally, if the Amiga computer will continue, I think one of two
things will happen. The Amiga will be sold to someone who will crank
out a bunch of machines but let the technology stagnate and die, or
the technology will move foward. I think there is about a 60% chance
that the Amiga will take off (probably never being a danger to Apple
or IBM) and a 40% chance the technology will simply die. Why?
Considering the horrible job Commodore did at selling Amigas and they
were successful for eight years or so, any one who puts even a modest
amount of efford in the machines will do okay.
Leslie,
I agree with you that there is a good chance that the remains of CBM are going
to wind up in the hands of someone who will just run the string out, sell
whatever equipment is left and let the technology die. Or that some effort will
be made by the new owners to keep it alive a la the C64 for a very low-end
market.
You mis-stated my words, though. I don't think that the various parts
of the Amiga technology are at a dead end. Certainly not
multitasking, certainly not the use of co-processors, certainly not
the efficient use of memory. But as a whole, the physical machine and
the inter inter-action of all these parts _is_ at a dead end. The
architecture offers nothing now in light of the current state of
computer development. It is much too expensive to fix the things that
are now inadequate. Multitasking is not viable without memory
management. This alone is too big a hurdle. The Amiga's multitasking,
as nice as it is (was) is really only a 'demo version' of the way
multitasking must be implemented in an enterprise machine (which is
what _all_ machines will now need to be). Graphics, and peripheral
bus implementation are other areas that are mountains to climb. As
bad as CBM was, it was a giant in terms of the R&D that would be
needed compared to the entities that are now involved in the bidding
war.
To answer you other question. Why am I here? Do I really need to give you an
answer to such a question? Are you some kind of door keeper? Do I have to
present credentials to allow me to voice my opinions here? Is it necessary to
wail about the awfulness of the current situation to be considered worthy of
participating here? What transgression did I make to lose my membership?
Mention of my use of (for my purposes, superior) Mac equipment (Horrors!).
Let's see, I bought my first A1000 in 1985. Two more in '86 (still have one).
Four A2000's in the next several years, two 3000s. Video boards, ethernet
cards, Software and hardware from every major Amiga developer, (ASDG, Black
Belt, DKB, Supra, IVS, WP, NewTek) Hundreds of hours on the phone with CBM
about WB/KS 1.0 bugs, dozens more about WB 2.x, uncounted hundreds of hours on
thios forum over a lot of years… Nah, those aren't the real reasons I
participate here – there's only one – I pay my monthly CIS bill.
Why you picked me to get angry at is really a little difficult for me to
understand. I didn't sink CBM.
Rich
Could you tell me which home computer multitasks better than the Amiga?
-> To answer you other question. Why am I here? Do I really need to give
you an answer to such a question? Are you some kind of door keeper? Do I
have to present credentials to allow me to voice my opinions here? Is it
necessary to wail about the awfulness of the current situation to be
considered worthy of participating here? What transgression did I make to
lose my membership? Mention of my use of (for my purposes, superior) Mac
equipment (Horrors!).
You don't have to answer any of my questions. I never said you did.
If Macs do what you want then I think it's great. I have used a Mac at
work. They are fine machines. Personally, I prefer the Amiga interface
but the Mac was fun to use.
-> Let's see, I bought my first A1000 in 1985. Two more in '86 …etc
You certainly have had experience with the Amiga but if you think the
Amiga is a dead end computer and you've moved to a Mac platform why do you
still come to the Amiga forums? Have you given up completely on the Amiga?
Leslie,
You _are_ right. I don't have to answer your questions. What I don't understand
about you, is why you question someone's interest in this forum after he has
described his use of another machine in his line of work. It seems as though
you have focused on me as an outsider of this forum. I'm not sure why. Others
here use other machines. Others here have voiced pessimism about the future of
the Amiga. I don't think the Amiga can survive because it is A) a deadend
machine (your expression, I said irellevent) as it now exists, and B) the
entities trying to buy whatever is left of CBM do not have the ability or
desire to do the formidible R&D which would be required to bring the Amiga back
into some kind of viable platform. But even if a company that did have such
capability were interested in Amiga (and none is), I think the chances of
something fruitful resulting are nil. Why? Because I also think that Apple
Computer is fast approaching Amiga's fate. And if such a fate is going to
happen to Apple, then efforts to re-develop the Amiga are useless. I am hardly
alone in this view. In fact the last issue of Byte magazine ran an article
which predicted that Apple may, despite all its efforts not die, but became
…irellevent. Sound familiar?
Apple and the PPC may just fail against Windows (95, NT, whatever) and Intel
architecture. I hope not, but the overwhelming indicato indicators point in
such a direction. Irellevent means that the machine's existence has no real
effect on the computing world. I guess that discussions of facts like these
bother you to the extent that you object to the presence of the speaker. Why do
you intrude yourself in 'our' little world? You ask. You've moved 'away." Hmmm.
how provincial. Yes I use Macs. And PCs and, now, one Amiga 3000 which has
files in it of a form not useable on _any_ other platform. I'll continue to use
that machine as long as I need to get those files or until the machine breaks
and no parts are available. And I'll continue to visit this forum as long as it
exists despite the presence here of someone with your attitude. Does that
satisfy your curiosity?
Rich
Occasionally, someone comes into a forum who has no connection at
all and simply wants to generate angry mail. In fact, last month
someone here admitted that he logged in the AmigaUser forum to make
inflamatory statements and collect angry messages.
When you said that you thought a person would be naive to believe
the Amiga technology would no longer advance, and I got the
impression from your messages you did not have an Amiga, I wondered
if you were doing the same thing to some degree. I didn't want to
accuse you of such a thing unless I was completely certain and that
is why I asked why you were here.
From your last message it's obvious you aren't such a person.
Since this is the case I have no problem with your opinions (except
that I hope you are wrong.) As I said in an eariler message, I was
not trying to anger you and I apologize if I did.
I have a less pessimistic view. I believe that just because
neither C=UK or CEI want to overbid on the technology it doesn't mean
that they aren't financially well funded. I think this just means
that the well isn't bottomless and any money spent on the initial
purpose can't be spent on re-establishing the Amiga. I also believe
that the trustees have overvalued the Amiga technology and that that
is what's causing the holdup. This explains why so many different
"chances" were offered to companies to make bids. I do agree that
the liquidators couldn't give a rodent's posterior about the Amiga or
its users.
But all of this is just speculation, on both your part and mine.
Only time will tell which direction teh Amiga will take. The only
unfortunate thing is no one knows how much time the Amiga has
left…. 🙁