#Editors Choice
35 messages in this thread
Editors Choice is the catalog that was suppose to be included in the first
50,000 copies of VB retail.
Has anyone received a catalog from these people?
Has anyone ordered anything from them and received it?
I paid for an $1900 dollar ad in there catalog, under Microsoft's advice,
and we have not received one single phone call. Yet the same ad in other
magazines is giving lots of calls.
I am beginning to wonder if the catalog ever went out?
Thanks,
Mitch
There are 5 Replies.
Mitch,
I got the catalog, but I was pretty much aware of everything in it by the
time I received it so I guess I ignored it, though I did see your ad… I
don't remember exactly when I got it, but I remember waiting a while for
it, wondering if it would ever come.
– Ted
Mitch,
I remember getting some sort of small catalog with VB, but I don't remember
what I did with it. It's probably over there in that <very large> stack of
other stuff I should be doing instead of playing with VB and keeping up
with CIS<g>.
FWIW, I got VB directly from MS as soon as I could order it. If I run
across the catalog I'll let you know.
Dan.
I did get a brochure from Editor's Choice Software with a mail-ordered copy
– "Companion Product Buyer's Guide for Visual Basic" – It includes an add
for three Visual Basic Basic books from The Waite Group. Your are on page
21.
There are 21 vendor ads. They included an order form and an 800 number.
Maybe everyone is calling them and not you.
Fred
There is 1 Reply.
According to Ethan Weiner of Crescent, he has had very few calls from the
Editor's Choice catalog, so its not just me. He is very unhappy with them.
There are 2 Replies.
Hi Mitchell!
I was one of the very first retail customers of VB–I suppose. I ordered it
from MicroWarehouse in New Jersey, and they shipped my copy the day they
got their initial inventory.
There was a coupon for Editor's Choice in the docs–there wasn't a catalog.
I filled in the card and mailed it. I'm not sure that I ever received a
catalog from them.
If you paid $1400 to be included in a catalog that was offered (not
included) to the first 50K VB users, you done been had. Figure (truly) that
only 2% (max 3%) responded. That's 1000 catalogs. Figure 10% subsequently
ordered something from the catalog. That's 100 orders. Those orders went to
Editor's Choice, not you (and of course, they weren't all for your
product). EC has a mailing list, so I'm sure that they distributed more
than 1000 catalogs. BUT–I think you're more than justified in asking EC to
document the extent of the campaign. How many copies mailed, how many
included, etc.
Incidentally, this problem is why many magazine advertisers insist that
copies of the postage receipts be included in their bill. They pay on a
cost-per-thousand basis, and they want to see how many thousand actually
went to the post office.
JM
There are 2 Replies.
John,
I've been waiting on jumping into this thread to hear the "final" word on
something from MS and I got it today. So, for yours and Mitch's
edification, I'll share the whole story now.
Editor's Choice Software is, for all intents and purposes, no longer
involved with the MS catalogs they produced. They may still be taking
orders for products that they are authorized to ship (only a few in the
entire catalog), but that's the extent of it.
There was a very large backlog of postcard requests, such as the one you
sent in. Microsoft assumed the responsibility for mailing the catalogs to
all those who responded and, as of this week, the last batch (several
thousand) were mailed. In fact, MS went "above and beyond" in that they
also sent out the catalogs to some people outside the US (they had
purchased "grey market" copies).
As of approximately July 15 (I may be wrong on the date, but it's close),
the catalog was going into all the VB boxes.
We (MicroHelp) took two full pages in that catalog. While we have received
a small number of orders because of the ad, it didn't come close to paying
for itself, not to mention showing a profit.
Mark
There is 1 Reply.
Very interesting Mark. Thanks for the clarification. So Microsoft mailed
out the postcards and there was a large back order for them. The guy at EC
told me he had mailed the cards promptly. I am glad Microsoft is handling
this, but don't you think they owe us the catalog shipped in the next
100,000 copies and not the next 50,000 since the EC delay made the entire
impact so small?
There is 1 Reply.
Mitch,
I think putting a catalog in the next 100,000 at no cost to the advertisers
would be appropriate. Why don't you run it by Mike R and see what he has to
say!
Mark
P.S. After you talk to him, let me know and I'll send you pain pills for
your ears..
There is 1 Reply.
Mark:
Who is Mike R and how do I get ahold of him?
Mark –
You might be underestimating the power of that catalog. I saw your products
there and *because* I saw them, inquired here and at other places for
people who'd used them. I've now not only bought VBT, but subscribed to
your infamous fake <g> beta. I might not have thought to inquire about VBT
without that catalog notice.
My 2 cents….
Paul
There is 1 Reply.
Paul,
Thanks for the two cents. I wish there were about 1,000 more like you!
Mark
John:
Thanks for your reply and thanks to everyone else who answered. It is
really amazing at how supportive people on CSN can be. Yes, it was probably
a mistake to invest in the Editors Choice ad…doing an insert for a
catalog just isn't the best form of adversting. They told me that they got
11,000 replies from 50,000 inserts. Out of 11,000 catalogs you would think
we would have got one call.
I am still investigating this and I am going to let Microsoft know this is
not a good thing.
>
Incidentally, this problem is why many magazine advertisers insist that
copies of the postage receipts be included in their bill. They pay on a
cost-per-thousand basis, and they want to see how many thousand actually
went to the post office.
>
I never saw copes of postage receipts for any magazine ad I have ever done.
Are you sure this is standard?
Mitch
There is 1 Reply.
Hi Mitch!
<<Are you sure this [insisting on postage receipts with magazine ads] is
standard?>>
In big-time commercial advertising, yes. When you buy as much ad space as
somebody like General Mills (Betty Crocker, etc.) you don't bother looking
at the published rate card. You bargain on a long-term basis–on a
cost-per-thousand long-term basis. That postage receipt effectively becomes
part of the bill. Several years back a magazine in the industry segment I
worked in was advertising some ridiculously low ad rates (in terms of CPM).
It turned out that the stated circulation and the number of copies sent
were significantly different. If you have any doubts at all about a
magazine, ask for the receipts. I'm pretty sure they're *required* to
provide them. I *am* sure they'll be happy too. If they don't, drop 'em
like a hot brick.
JM
P.S. My mom raves about your W4W book.
There is 1 Reply.
>
If you have any doubts at all about a magazine, ask for the receipts. I'm
pretty sure they're *required* to provide them. I *am* sure they'll be
happy too. If they don't, drop 'em like a hot brick.
>
When I talked to the new owner of Editors Choice he said he would provide
postal receipts but acted like I was the one who was not keeping my
agreement to pay. I asked him for any proof. So far I have received
nothing. My attorney said it is perfectly legal to ask for proof of the
mailing and if they are on the up and up they will send it.
>
P.S. My mom raves about your W4W book.
>
Really? We never published a W4W book. Only a book called WordPerfect
Bible.
Thanks for the advice.
Mitch
Hi Mitch!
<<We never published a W4W book.>>
Oh. <Smack forehead> She said "Cobb Group", not "Waite Group." Sorry.
BTW, I note that you're publishing your own books now, not packaging them
for somebody else. Congratulations! Are you doing your own fulfillment, or
using somebody else as a distributor? (I used to work for The Cat's
Pajamas, the biggies in publisher OE/Mktg/fulfillment software.)
JM
After 22+ years in magazine (and books) publishing, yes I have seen plenty
of requests for proof of posting. Auditors (ABC, BPA) also demand these,
together with copies of printer's invoices. "Rate Card" circulation
numbers are in my view of pretty dubious value at the best of times; they
are too easily "cooked" by publishers looking for bigger cpm numbers. I
don't think I would ever do an insert mailing (catalog insert or one like
you did) without insisting on _at least_ a verification via a copy of the
post office receipts/invoices … those can still be rigged by a publisher
(if the incentive is high enough, he could for instance mail his office
copies back to himself to boost the numbers), but they are a _lot_ more
certain than whatever numbers the sales director dreamed up for the rate
card.
I'm not trying to claim all publishers are crooks — the great majority are
honest — but there are far too many people in this business who don't want
to be accountable for their sales claims. If I were on the media buying
side of the equation, I would always look for ways to directly measure
response, whether to an advertisement or an insert (assuming it called for
response) … it would be interesting to nagotiate a "pay per response"
rate, versus a rate based on the publisher's claims or qualified readers
…
Showing my age … I enjoyed your Soul of CP/M and the CP/M Primer … !
Regds. Ric Day
There is 1 Reply.
Thanks for the infor Richard. The VB catalog is being taken over by Jim
Fawcette the publisher of BasicPro, in which I have a column. I feel much
better about him doing it. Still I will ask him to give me some objective
proof of mailing and I am sure he will do it. I am told the new catalog
will be in full color and look much better than the one from the former
Editors Choice, which is no longer in business.
Mitch
There is 1 Reply.
Hi Mitch…
While everyone's throwing out the kudos for all your products (and a few
others' products <g>), I wanted to mention we're wearing the Turbo C++
programming book out. We're learning a lot from it so far.
You guys are mentioning the VB Catalog…where can I get a copy?
John–
Yes, you can probably get postage receipts if you demand them. But remember
that they don't prove much–for lots of magazines in the computer industry,
up to 50% of the copies are sold on the newsstand. So you could get
paperwork proving how many copies are shipped to the newsstand…but that
wouldn't tell you anything about the sell-through rate. Well, let's see.
You could demand data on the sell-through rate and draw, but it would be
four to seven months out of date, newsstand distributors being what they
are, and I don't know of any magazines that don't change their draw within
that period….
The bottom line is that you *can't* verify that an ad you place with a
magazine will be seen by exactly as many readers as you've been promised.
*However,* many magazines have their circulation audited by BPA or ABC.
Circ audits show exactly how many copies of a paid-circulation magazine are
paid for, and how many copies of a controlled-circ magazine are delivered
to qualified readers. If the number is different from what the publisher
claimed, the audit contains a footnote to that effect.
I don't recommend that advertisers go into the audit business. You're
better off working with a publisher you trust and trusting the audit bureau
to verify that the circulation you get meets or exceeds the circulation you
pay for.
JDH
There are 2 Replies.
The BPA reports that I have seen printed in the pages of PC Magazine and
others show about 10% of the copies sold thru the newsstand. What magazines
have 50% sold that way? Computer Language? Dr Dobbs?
There is 1 Reply.
Mitch–
If you're seeing statements printed in the pages of the magazine, they're
not from BPA or ABC…they're the distribution information required by the
U.S. Postal Service in the annual "statement of ownership." They do
provide, for the most recent issue and the average of the past six or 12
issues, data on how many copies were distributed via mail, via newsstand,
etc.
However, you should know that it's acceptable to use estimated newsstand
sell-through rates in these statements. Also, people who request
subscriptions but never pay may receive 0, 1, 2, 3, or more issues of the
magazine before being cut off, at the publisher's option. These folks count
as paid circulation in statements of ownership…sometimes. So the bottom
line is that the statement of ownership can be misleading too.
Computer Shopper and PC Laptop sell most of their copies on the newsstand,
I'm pretty sure. At one time Computer Language sold about 20% of its copies
off the racks, I believe. Windows Tech Journal will be about 22% newsstand,
at least at first.
The closer a magazine is to a buyer's guide, the more likely it is to be a
newsstand book. WinTech will probably stabilize at a higher percentage of
newsstand sales than CL, for instance, because Windows programming is about
tools as much as it is about techniques.
JDH
There is 1 Reply.
Boy you sure know a lot about this stuff Jon. Thanks for the info.
There are 2 Replies.
Mitch–
I've been chief editor or editorial director for 15 computer magazines over
the past decade, and Windows Tech Journal will be my ninth launch. As one
or two of the launches were on my own dime, I've been fairly well motivated
to learn something about publishing economics.
JDH
P.S. Just picked up BASICPro in the bookstore and saw your
column–congrats. I also enjoyed noticing that Bruce Tonkin is wearing a
Programmer's Journal T-shirt in the photo that accompanies his last-page
guest editorial. Har har.
There is 1 Reply.
Hi Mitch – Small World!
Received any good royalties from Sams Lately?
There is 1 Reply.
Hi JDH!
I'm certainly not advocating trying to compete with ABC or BPA. In Mitch's
case he was buying into a catalog, which isn't a BPA publication. What I
was doing was describing some of the elements involved. In Mitch's case the
quantity mailed is *precisely* the issue at hand. There's no retail circ
for a software catalog.
BTW, before this takes off, I should mention that I'm the Murdoch of the
children's book world, NOT the Murdoch of the magazine world. <grin>
JM
There is 1 Reply.
John–
Of course you're precisely right about the catalog (though I worry that it
may go out in multiple mailings). I just saw a chance to mouth off about
something I know something about, and couldn't resist! Magazine circulation
is pretty complicated.
BTW…I have a note here to send you a set of Windows Tech Journal writers'
guidelines. I'm dropping 'em into your mailbox now…..
JDH
John,
If the title of the book is Word for Windows, it's probably the book that
Mark Crane here at The Cobb Group wrote and we later sold to Microsoft
Press. If it is, I'll pass on the compliment to Mark. (Sorry Mitch <g>)
Blake
Mitch,
I've been thinking about this delimma. It occurs to me that maybe the
*first* 50,000 went to folks like me who already have sources of info they
need (or know where to get it). I'll bet the first ones out the door were
to people who took MS up on the "upgrade" offer, no? These were the folks
who have been beating on MS for a long time about wanting Basic for
Windows.
Speaking only for myself …
Some of us already know about the Waite Group, Crescent, Microhelp ,etc,
etc and assume we won't have trouble getting what we want without ordering
from the included catalog. I, for one, probably stuck it away with the
other paperwork that came with VB in a file or pile around here somewhere.
Anyway, just some thoughts. Sorry if I sound like I *think* I know
anything about this market … I don't (and I'm not trying to pretend to).
I'm just a <very small> *part* of it <g>.
Oh well, better luck on your next marketing adventure. It's only money,
right? How about the next 50,000?
Dan
There are 2 Replies.
Mitchell,
That's what happend to my catalog. It's on my desk. I already know
about most of the stuff so I ignored it (stupid me , I ordered some stuff
and could have gotten a discount)
Charlie
There is 1 Reply.
Charles (& Mitchell et al):
Surprise! I got another one in the mail TODAY! FWIW, the cover says
"Volume 1 – Summer 1991", so I assume it's the same one.
Mitchell, if you're listening, there's a code number on the mailing label
that says 002164, if that means anything to you.
There is 1 Reply.
Thanks Keith. I wonder why you got another catalog today. Perhaps they did
not know what was mailed and what was not mailed and so just decided to
send them all out?
Mitch
The next 50,000 catalogs where just shipped to Microsoft so I hope that
this makes a difference. I am suprises that this is just happening. I
assume the failure of the company set them back.
Mitch
Mitch –
It wasn't in my copy of VB. But then again, I probably wasn't in the forst
50,000. Hope you'll hear from more people soon. Sounds like a big wad to
drop for nothing.
— Susan
Mitchell:
I ordered VB direct from MS about an hour after they started taking orders
for it (Tuesday of Spring Comdex, I believe), and had it in hand Thursday;
my gut feel is that I was in the first 50,000!
Anyway, I do remember seeing a coupon, and sending it in. I also remember
getting the catalog later (though I can't locate it now). My impression
at the time was that the stuff that was listed in the catalog wasn't shipping
yet, so I just decided to wait and see. Also, I think there were some
messages in MSLANG just after the announcement about books, and though
there were a LOT of books in the works, nothing was shipping.
I agree with Dan; being in the first 50,000 would not be an advantage.