CompuServe Thread

#KUB's TSE saves 3DS!!!!!

11 messages in this thread
#145328From: Marion K. MarksJan 6, 1995 2:01 PM
John, 3DS is on top of the world right now. And VisiCalc was on top of the world in the spreadsheet market (which it created). And the Intel 8080 was on top of the world in the CP/M CPU market. And Ashton-Tate's dBASE was on top of the world in the database market. And Digital Research's GEM clobbered the likes of Microsoft Windows 1.x and 2.x in the PC GUI market. I think you get my point. NOBODY but NOBODY can be secure resting on their laurels in the computer market. Not Intel, not Microsoft, not VisiCorp or Ashton-Tate (R.I.P.), and certainly not Autodesk. The "enormous user base on Intel platforms" will be moving en masse to Windows95 late this year. In doing so, DOS will be removed from their hard disks or perhaps relegated to a Dual Boot status. 3DS currently does not run under Windows NT at all. I don't know if it can run under Windows95. Note what that means: a personal computer with Windows NT as its sole operating system CANNOT EVEN LOAD 3D STUDIO AT ALL, DESPITE being an "Intel platform"! If the same holds true for Windows95, then 3D Studio is in SERIOUS trouble! It MUST be ported to new platforms, or it will go the way of VisiCalc. And it must be ported SOON. Let's face it: even with Dual Boot or Boot Manager or some such so that running 3DS is still POSSIBLE on a Windows NT/95 system, do you really want to have to REBOOT YOUR COMPUTER each time you want to run 3D Studio? And then REBOOT IT AGAIN to leave 3DS and run your other major applications (which will be under Windows95)? If there were another 3D package that didn't require you to do that, and would let you (for example) copy and paste or even OLE-link/embed bitmaps right from your copy of CorelPHOTO-PAINT or Adobe PhotoShop or Fractal Designs Painter directly to the maps of your materials or the background or whatever, just how much better than that program would 3DS have to be to entice you to put up with that level of gross inconvenience in order to simply load it into your computer's memory for execution? Especially if said program can also import everything you've ever done in 3DS (.3DS files, .PRJ files, etc.) so you weren't stuck with 3DS for legacy's sake?
#145355From: David J. MarksJan 6, 1995 3:37 PM
>> It MUST be ported to new platforms, or it will go the way of VisiCalc. Dear "M&McommunicationsConcept": PMJI here, but surely you can't believe that the Yost Group and Autodesk would sit back and let their products die together with DOS. The fact that they elect not to discuss future releases, doesn't mean they have forgotten us. Personally, I'm thankful that I have such an affordable, high-quality animation tool at my disposal. It works now, and I trust that it will continue to improve as hardware and OS's change. It does me little good to speculate or worry about the future. Do you have a first name? "M&McommunicationsConcept" pops in here a few times a month and leaves dozens of messages, most of which have some VERY informative details. "M&McommunicationsConcept" gets plenty of replies, BUT… I, for one, would feel more comfortable responding to a "person" than to a company name. It just feels friendlier that way. Am I speaking to the Marion Marks who used to visit here? Please give us a name to address you by, most of us here talk on a "first name basis". – Dave
#145383From: John EllisJan 6, 1995 5:46 PM
Damn David, you're hot on the keyboard. I'm still sending my message out though, even though its almost word for word the same sentiment. <g> John
#145529From: Marion K. MarksJan 7, 1995 4:46 PM
I'm sorry about not signing my posts. It's not my idea. My boss just doesn't want our names to be used here. It's his account, so I gotta do what he says. If it were up to me, I'd be using my real name. David, your faith in Autodesk is touching, but mine took a serious nosedive when we got in "Release 4" and saw just how little we got in the way of real new features in the program itself (as opposed to plug-ins and an extended API to enable IPAS4 developers to make better plug-ins). We got NOTHING along those lines except for being able to treat fields as frames, and then only by modifying 3DS.SET for all slave machines — it can't easily be set or unset on a per-project basis. Also, that feature seems to have some serious problems in its current implementation, enough so that it's basically unusable as-is, but that's a subject for another post. Also, I'm a programmer myself. I have been programming for decades on a wide variety of platforms. Here're the facts: 3D Studio itself can be feasibly ported. Existing IPAS routines cannot. Period. Would you use 3DS on an Alpha AXP if it meant you'd have to give up ALL your .IXPs, .AXPs, .SXPs, and .BXPs except those that their developers decide they want to port over? And wait for them to get around to doing so, _if_ they're gonna do it? You could still use .PXPs and .KXPs on your Intel machines since their job is done before rendering time, but you couldn't even use Alphas (or SGIs etc.) as SLAVES if your project required even ONE SINGLE unported .IXP, .SXP, or .AXP, and without ported .BXPs you might have to do some serious file conversions before and/or after rendering. IPAS routines are solidly based on the Intel/DOS/Phar Lap platform. Change any one of those to a non-compatible replacement (changing the Intel 486 to a Cyrix or AMD 486 wouldn't count, for instance, but, say, changing DOS to Windows NT or UNIX would) means they won't run anymore. At all. Period. They have to be rewritten AND recompiled. Not just recompiled. Perhaps a few could get away with mere recompilation, but that's still not something the end-user can do. TSE alleviates that by providing a high-level language for plug-ins that is NOT based on any one platform. TSE would have the same keywords and structures regardless of the underlying CPU or operating system that 3DS and TSE are running under (this assumes, of course, that KUB ports TSE itself, but that's a LOT more likely to happen than asking dozens of IPAS developers to port hundreds of IPAS routines.
#145574From: ROBERT RITGERJan 7, 1995 10:22 PM
? /_______________________From your message________________________\\ Would you use 3DS on an Alpha AXP if it meant you'd have to give up ALL your IXPs, .AXPs, .SXPs, and .BXPs except those that their developers decide they want to port over? __________________________________________________________________ You bet I would. I don't know if there are many like me but I don't use IPAS routines in my typical animations. Give me the port, having no IPAS routines wouldn't keep me from doing my work. I think it would be a GREAT thing to force developers to port their IPAS routines to NT as it would mean that they could also use the oportunity to include other enhancements. Bob
#145675From: David J. MarksJan 8, 1995 10:53 PM
>> My boss just doesn't want our names to be used here. Please pass my thoughts along to your boss. If there are more than one of you using the account, it would really help us "identify" who we're speaking to. >> how little we got in the way of real new features… I have no regrets about the cost we paid for "R4". The IK "plug-in" alone, which saved me a tremendous amount of keyframing time on a project, was worth the upgrade price by itself. Granted the release didn't give us lots of bells and whistles, or a huge amount of wishlist coverage, but it IS better that R3, and if it saves me a few hours of effort each week, I'll be content. Like everyone else using 3DS, I have hopes and suspicions about what will become "R5". If it comes around, and I don't like it for some reason, no one will force me to buy it. In the mean time, if a better tool comes along that helps me pay the bills, I'll look into it. I feel that we've gotten a decent ROI from the software and plug-ins we've invested in, and we will continue to buy whatever fits our business. – Dave
#145771From: SyndesisJan 9, 1995 1:18 PM
On the other hand, forcing IPAS sellers to update their products by moving to new platforms is a good thing for customers. If Autodesk worries endlessly about backwards compatibility and builds it in, then IPAS developers have one less reason to move forward. Personally, I think a revamp of the IPAS interface would be nice. It underwent one serious (but backwards-compatible) revision from R2 to R3. There may be some interesting PharLap technology that would allow a single executable to work under DOS 3DS as well as WinNT.
#145382From: John EllisJan 6, 1995 5:46 PM
Dear M&M, I don't know your name, are you perhaps Cameron? If so we've met before. >> NOBODY but NOBODY can be secure resting on their laurels… << What in the world would give you the idea that anybody around here was resting on their laurels or anything else for that matter. >> Note what that means: a personal computer with Windows NT as its sole operating system CANNOT EVEN LOAD 3D STUDIO AT ALL, DESPITE being an "Intel platform"! << Do you know something I don't know. I admit this is a rhetorical question but it seems to me that Microsoft can't just let the DOS user base die flat out. That just doesn't make any sense. And to think that Autodesk wouldn't be taking appropriate steps regardless of what the situation is with MS would be sheer lunacy. Now you don't think the creators of 3DS are lunatics do you? Or are you just stopping by to remind us that a new OS is on the horizon. Hmmm seems like we've been hearing that for quite awhile. Do you think its possible that you've caught the Yost Group off guard? <g> I can't imagine why else you would be going on this tirade. I'll let it go at that because the rest of your suppostions are based on the idea that the Yost Group is asleep or something. I can't even imagine what you think there up to. As far as the patch modeler is concerned, they did the right thing. Danny as much as said so, and they went one step further, by giving him the rights to continue its development. Somehow you feel cheated. Man I just don't know, with all that 3DS has going for it, I can't imagine how anyone could feel that way, especially when the circumstances have been explained abnosium. I guess it takes all kinds. I can agree with you on one thing for sure, and that is that the TSE are a great addition, but frankly 3DS stands on its own. Don't look know but when you see the release of R5 you're gonna wonder what hit, I'm betting. <g> John
#145527From: Marion K. MarksJan 7, 1995 4:46 PM
No doubt I will. Gary has already mentioned at least one new feature for r"5" that will be an actual new feature in the program itself (even complete with a USER-INTERFACE and not just a 3DS.SET parameter!), not a plug-in, extension to the plug-ins API, or performance increase. Do you know just how many such features r"4" has? NONE! ONE if you remove the requirement that it should have a user-interface, and even that one seems to need a lot of work before it's ready for prime time! I don't blame Gary for this. Gary's a VERY good programmer and an all-round great guy. I blame Autodesk. It is their policy, not Gary's, that prohibits any user-interface changes (however tiny and/or desirable or even necessary) in interim releases. The fact that r"4" has no such changes (other than "Release 4" appearing in the About 3D Studio dialog box instead of "Release 3," but I hardly think that one counts! <grin>) that is the primary basis for my stand that r"4" is actually at best r3.5, an interim release marketed as if it were a major new release. r2 and r3 were true major releases with great new features. I expected similar from r"4". Silly me, both from having such expectations based on both the history of this program itself and the traditions of the computer industry as a whole in reserving the integer portion of the version/release number for MAJOR releases with MAJOR changes, AND for feeling "cheated" as a result. Silly me for accepting the word of an official Autodesk Press Release (one that leaves no legal "out" for them!) on the Spline Patch Modeller, feeling major disappointment at the realization from that Press Release that r"4" was really r"3.5" at best with some add-on goodies tossed in, and basing the decision that the upgrade price was still worth it on the basis of the value of the promised goodies INCLUDING THE SPLINE MODELLER, and feeling "cheated" when it didn't show up. I suppose I should just accept that in these days of politicians who feel that promises are made to be changed on a whim, that corporations who sell software our business depends on should not be held to a higher standard than our elected leaders. I should not feel cheated when they simply do what our elected leaders do all the time. I suppose that if I bought a car that was advertised as including a surround-sound CD system for $XX,XXX.XX, and that said sound system was a major factor in my decision to purchase said car, but the manufacturer of the car lost the rights to include said sound system but still charged me the same price as was advertised, "but, to make up for it, we'll throw in this nifty piece of cardboard you can put in your windshield when parking out in the sun to keep the vinyl of the dashboard from bleaching and turning brittle!" even though said piece of cardboard doesn't even approach the value of the sound system AND I already HAVE one of those cardboard thingies, I should not feel cheated. I should not expect the automobile manufacturer to either lower the price from what was advertised, nor substitute something of at least EQUAL value for the lost sound system. Shyeah, ROIGHT!
#145573From: ROBERT RITGERJan 7, 1995 10:22 PM
? /_______________________From your message________________________\\ that is the primary basis for my stand that r"4" is actually at best r3.5, an interim release marketed as if it were a major new release. __________________________________________________________________ I can't take it anymore. If I have to read any more messages of yours stating this again I'll be forced to rip my own head off! This dead horse has been beaten, re-beaten and then months later you pop up and beat it some more. (Don't misunderstand me, I agree completely with your viewpoint!) It is time to live with it, deal with it and free me from your repetitious remarks. Your messages are usually chock full of technical information which I find very informative, but this regurgitative flaming is incredibly boring. /_______________________From your message________________________\\ Silly me for accepting the word of an official Autodesk Press Release (one that leaves no legal "out" for them!) on the Spline Patch Modeller __________________________________________________________________ Again, do I have to read this over and over? If you can't let up on these repetitious topics could you at least take them to e-mail and spare me from having to see them? Bob
#145582From: John EllisJan 8, 1995 1:06 AM
I wonder about your perspective. I understand your position through your perspective, but I certainly don't share the same view. I feel that Autodesk/YG has acted in good faith. I give them alot of credit for what has been done right. You yourself have acknowledged what a phenomenal job they did with R2 and R3. I think there is some residual effect from that. And while you've slammed R4 for its lack of features, (which BTW is inaccurate as you now have IK and KF scripting among other things) at the same time you tought TSE. Well TSE could not have been achieved without substructure modifications in R4. So while on the surface you feel there have been no new features, the fact is that alot of effort went into opening up the architecture to make it possible. You gave KUB the credit, but YG made it possible. In fact I suspect it was a major collaborative effort, but from your pronouncements it was KUB that saved 3DS. One has to look at the philosophy of open architecture to really appreciate what was done for R4. That is my perspective. The unobvious thing is, that while you've been punching hard on R4, I suspect that you're well meaning. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you'd be willing to do the same with regard to your perception of what has transpired. At least reserve judgement for the time being and consider some of the factors I've mentioned and possibly glean some deeper appreciation for what is there already. In doing so, it'll be easier to trust that you mean well and only want the best for YG and 3DS. Otherwise you motives seem suspect. John