#Digital audio questions
26 messages in this thread
Don:
First off, I'm just getting into sound. Right now, I only have a basic
soundblaster- not much else. But I have had experience doing some sound (only
8bit) on a Mac using a program from Macromedia called Sound Edit Pro. (now,
there is a 16 bit version called, appropriately, Sound Edit 16.)
Now for the questions I can answer:
I believe the best audio card around is the Monterey from Turtle Beach. From
reviews I've read, it has a very high quality digitize, and excellent midi
wavetable sound. I have seen a "Quad" package from TB that includes the Tahiti
board and some recording software that lets you record two tracks of audio,
while listening to 2 others at the same time. I'm not sure if I'll need that
capability, you may or may not. Street prices are around $300-400. I forget
the difference between the Tahiti and Monterey boards, I believe the Monterey
has better midi, and the Tahiti has more Soundblaster compatability- for games,
etc. I'm not positive though. I'd check with TB to see which has better
recording.
As far as digitized audio software, I'm not sure if there is as good a
selection as on the Mac. If it was offered, I'd pick up Sound Edit 16- but I
know of no PC release announced. I've seen some recent reviews of programs (in
New Media?), and I believe they like Wave from Turtle Beach. I'm not sure how
good it is though. It's around $120 street, so it should be pretty good.
Where I work, we just got a Datman from Sony- a portable consumer dat recorder.
($600 or so) It's really portable, and the audio guy likes it. But that's the
only Dat he's got around, so I can't compare quality. But for DAT recording,
I'm not sure if the differences are really worth worring about. It sounds
really good. It's not really ruggedized, but it's the cheapest they come. I
doubt you need multitrack, unless you want the ability to record 4 sound
sources at once- like, say, a musical performance. Most voice overs, and nat
sound would suffice with the Datman. I don't see the need for time code unless
there is something you'd want to sync up exactly. And then, I'm not sure how
you'd do it in a PC. I don't believe Video for Windows allows timecode- so
you'd have a problem with getting a program to take it. A good clapper type
signal (like used in film) is all I think would be necessary. Just sync up the
sound with the motion, and you shouldn't have problems. Laying the sound off
directly to the master may be a problem though. I'm not sure about any kind of
gpi type triggering.
I really couldn't say how long you could keep up a reliable playback from the
PC at CD quality. It's kinda like digital video though, it's very processor
and hard drive dependent. Sustained HD rate would have to be pretty high,
especially for a typical IDE drive. Another problem that could come up is due
to recalibration. I'm sure you know this, but hard drives don't like to pump
out data at a reliable rate for a sustained period of time. They usually
recalibrate, or studder once in a while. An AV drive is recommended.
Personally, I'm looking at a 2GB Fast-Wide Segate/Adaptec Barracuda drive setup
for a system I'm getting. The PCI setup has a 13.5 MB/sec transfer rate that
would easily handle CD quality output for a sustained period of time. It's
probably overkill for audio though. I think 4MB per second is all that's
required, mabe less depending on compression, or other variables. Well, it
boils down to "I'm not sure." 🙂
I don't know how much audio you can get per second of disk space. That's
dependent on the type of recording and compression used. I believe 10MB per
second of stereo CD sound is the uncompressed size. I believe that's higher
than what you'd actually get though. I believe the Monterey has a hardware
compression DSP chip on it that makes the size more managable. It's probably
closer to the 4MB per second I mentioned earlier.
On your questions about tracks, echo, reverb, waveform slicing and EQ- this
depends on the software. Once it's in a .wav file, it's just computer data.
I'm not sure what Wave does, but Sound Edit Pro allowed for a whole lot of
tracks, not infinite, but more than that system could handle running.. (not
saying much though) Certainly more than four. echo, reberb, and eq stuff
should be in most good .wav programs. Left and Right channels are usually
affected together- so I'm not sure what it would take to mess up one channel,
and not the other.
What I've talked about is the most basic implementation of sound editing on the
PC. I have, however, seen a pretty cool setup of custom hardware and software
that rivals (or possibly exceeds) the mac arena. I saw it at a broadcast
convention type show, I forget the name- but it's pretty expensive. Not
outrageously expensive, but certainly more than $500 for everything. I can try
to find it if you're interested. It's in the thousands. It had some
impressive SMPTE stuff though. GPI triggering too. A great addition to an
edit suite, if you have the money.
For sure, have lots of ram, and a good quick HD.
Good luck, I hope I've helped.
JNJ
>>I don't know how much audio you can get per second of disk space. That's
dependent on the type of recording and compression used. I believe 10MB per
second of stereo CD sound is the uncompressed size. I believe that's higher
than what you'd actually get though. I believe the Monterey has a hardware
compression DSP chip on it that makes the size more managable. It's probably
closer to the 4MB per second I mentioned earlier.<<
I'm just happen to be doing lots compact disc digital audio to the *.WAV
format. Yes, there is such software to convert the pure digital data from the
regular CD disc (also overriding the copy protection bit that is used on all
cds) This process results in a p e r f e c t copy of the CD, not having to
recapture the sound by conventional mean (which degrades quality) ! ! Anyway,
getting to the point: If 10 Mb/sec, then one minute would be a whopping 60 Mb!
To be more correct, it would have to be ~10 Mb/ minute @ 16-bit / 44 Khz
sampling / 2-track stereo . So an average five-minute song would be only ~50 Mb
not 3 gigabytes ! !
>>The PCI setup has a 13.5 MB/sec transfer rate that would easily handle CD
quality output for a sustained period of time. It's probably overkill for
audio though.<<
I'm just curious is it 13.5 Mb or 132 Mb/sec? Are you talking about burst or
sustained transfer rate? I think it would be 132 Mb for the bus alone (PCI rev.
2 bus) . Too bad that even today fastest SCSI-II & III * can handle up to ~20
Mb/sec. So the bus might be overkilling the SCSI-xx controller.
*SCSI-III: I'm guessing. If someone know more about the new SCSI-3 specs,
please give more insights.
TSL
T-Spect Le:
What program do you use to copy from a CD to .wav? That's pretty cool.
I goofed on the 10MB/sec- you're right it's 10MB per minute.. silly me. 🙂
The 13.5MB/sec transfer rate is (I just learned) only an internal burst rate-
not a sustained rate. I'm guessing it's more like 8MB/sec sustained. I've
seen ads for 17MB/sec sustained from some Mac "biased" SCSI RAID systems-
that's really fast. Mabe some day.. 🙂
Fast-Wide SCSI-2 is what I believe people call SCSI-3. It's called
differential SCSI, which doesn't allow normal SCSI drives to run on it. The
PCI SCSI card I mentioned was the Adaptec 2940W, which I'm told by a couple
owners, has two SCSI connectors, one for Wide SCSI, and the other for normal
SCSI/SCSI-2 stuff like CD-ROMS, DAT, slower HD's, etc.
JNJ
>>What program do you use to copy from a CD to .wav? That's pretty cool.<<
Hi,
This freeware/public domain program was originally bought to my attention from
the montly Compuserve Magazine (this month's). If you want to download it: Join
the CDROM+ forum (GO CDROM) Look for the file CDDA2WAV.ZIP under the CD
Players/Audio section of the library. The are about three different variations
to the software, so it's best for you to get them all and decide later. The
only limitation of this software is that you got to have a SCSI-II based type
CD-ROM (SONY, TOSHIBA, NEC, & clones) w/ ASPI manager. I also have the regular
non-SCSI and it won't work. Last comment: It's pretty slow (even w/ P5/90 Mhz
CPU) because the author is kind of starting out. But if you want the pristine
digital quality, this is the only software that I know of that can do it very
cheaply.
TSL
Thanks for the info! Sounds pretty cool. I have a SCSI CD-ROM, but a
Plextor/Textel.. it might work. We'll see.
JNJ
Thanks for the overview: It would seem to me that the DAT recorder would be
good to have as a portable for a first purchase. Right now I take a Hi8
recorder with PCM Stereo into the field to audio record as it is the most
compact best quality recorder I have for audio. The price sounds good.
The Turtle Beach sounds like something I should check out further. I don't
think I do need SMPTE on the DAT as my recent experience with it indicates that
a 60 minute program can maintain lip sync end to end with a simple clapboard
type pulse for synchronization. I dump the dat back to betacam with the pulse
and then line it up in edit. I do need to have a SMPTE time line in the audio
software though to make it work.
I currently have a 16 bit Soundblaster with a SCSI II port and the DSP chip. I
haven't done anything with it except use it for CD-ROM audio. Maybe I should
just check this existing hardware out for capabilities to see if I even like
doing this. The audio inputs are stereo mini's and arn't very reliable. I
suppose I could hardwire a couple of XLR's to a breakout cable if things get
serious. What do you think of this sound board? I don't know anything about
MIDI or how it relates to WAV but I do know that the audio sounds better from a
MIDI file when I play them back.
Don-
I have the same sound card you do. Unfortunately, I haven't found it to be
that great for digitizing stuff. I haven't tried much though. I mainly use my
sound board for games, etc. I know it's not as good as the Monterey in sound
quality and fidelity of capture. However, I'd love to find a pure digital
recorder that allows for direct hookup to a digital out of a CD or DAT
player/recorder. That way it's not going to analog thru the cable.
What do you have for a Hi8 recorder? I've been wanting the Sony VX-3 for a "do
it all" type video camera. But, unfortunately, I haven't the money, nor the
justification to get one.
JNJ
Hi8 recorder??
I have two with PCM audio and one with AFM stereo.
1. EVO-9800 PCM stereo
2. CCD-220 PCM Stereo
3. TR-700 AFM stereo
I listed them in order of quality.
I picked up a DATMAN this afternoon to try out. The guy wants $300 for it and
it looks in really good condition. It only has a Stereo mini plug for input
but I have adapters. I'll let you know what I think of it next week after
giving it a workout for a week. At least it's portable but the ruggedness is
not like the Panasonic I used last week. We'll see. Other than that I like
its size. Tiny!
Don:
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
I currently have a 16 bit Soundblaster with a SCSI II port and the DSP chip.
I haven't done anything with it except use it for CD-ROM audio.
__________________________________________________________________
I have the same card but I added the Turtle Beach Maui to it to give me
wavetable synthesis and the stored midi samples. I would have gone with the
Monterey but the Soundblaster/Maui setup gives me soundblaster compatibility
which made it as flexible as could be.
Bob
Hi Don,
PMJI, and at the risk of JxJ confusion, I can comment on the Turtle Beach
Monterey card: I bought one not long ago and could not get it to work in my
[overloaded] P5-66 machine. Regardless of the resource options I choose, the
Windows driver will not recognize the board. I could not get Turtle Beach to
call me back with any help. I don't know if I have an incompatible system or a
defective board.
However, even if I could get it to work, I am returning it. Contrary to what a
Turtle Beach person told me prior to purchase, the card requrires a 32K chunk
(!) in the precious memory address space below 1 meg. Even with QEMM
optimization, when I load drivers for network, vesa, PAR, SCSI, mouse, CD-ROM,
etc., the free memory in my lower 640K is critically low.
JKJ
Re: Monterey problem
I had the same thing . It has to do with BIOS settings re. the 32k address
space. I can't remember the exact proceedure for fixing it but I'll take a
look in my BIOS to see if it might jog my memory. The TB people seem to be a
bit bogged down at the moment. It took about a week for me to get a call back
recently. But they were very helpful.
Ian.
Thanks, Ian. I finally got to talk to a person, who had me check for a
mis-documented jumper, but had no other suggestions. By that time I had
decided I couldn't afford the 32K space the card requires so I'm trading for
another model. If you can remember the fix, please post it anyway, for general
information.
JKJ
John,
I just purchased the Turtle Beach Monterey card and had no problem with the
installation and it is _not_ using any memory as you have stated. I'm am
unaware of any BIOS problems. This was installed in a Dell 466M machine. As far
as I know the BIOS is original, I don't think I've done an upgrade on this
particular machine, and it's about a year and a half old.
I upgraded from a Media Vision Pro Audio Spectrum 16 and the sound difference
is _awsome_. The Midi files that I have can now be used for real music
background instead of disk clutter. I bought this card because the new OZ
editing software will now que a MCI event with a wave file. This gives me the
abiltiy to perform an edit and sync music or whatever to the video. This is a
great feature and I have bugged the Videomedia people for it for some time.
This feature prompted me to upgrade to the Turtle beach card because the S/N on
the MV PAS16 was unacceptable for real work. Now all I need is a Mini disk with
MCI control and RS232 protocall!!
Tom
AM Productions
John,
I now have crow feathers protruding from my mouth. I sent you the message and
said that the Monterey did not require 32k of memory….. Wrong. I forgot to
look at my QEMM line, and I have D000-D7FF excluded for the TB card. I only
looked at the manifest listing and I was looking for some kind of driver….
Sorry for the bad info. I am sulking back to my computers. 🙁
Tom
>>Monterey memory space…
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the conformation post & repost, crow optional but unnecessary. <g>
I didn't get the first message until the second was there so I didn't have time
to brew a psychosis. I currently have the PAS-16 in my 486/66, and can verify
that the sound quality is pretty poor – but fine for games and talking
encyclopedias!
The Monterey I had failed many of the diagnostics, but who knows whether it was
due to configuration error or hardware failure. I'm going to try the TB Tropez
just to play with in my Pentium/66 and see if it works with RazorPro and the
PAR. Kyle at Turtle Beach promised me it uses no memory space and no DOS
drivers.
Fortunately, I don't have to do any real work with this stuff – just fun! I
have a rack of MIDI gear I can use if I need real music. Perhaps I'll try the
Monterey again when I get another Pentium and can split up some of this
hardware.
JKJ
John,
Just added a pentium 90 to my suite and that allowed me to spread some of my
cards around. I now have 3 machines with a total of 20 slots and only have 3
vacant, 1 in each machine…. Sheesh. Talk about memory configurations, I had
one machine that had 3 different config options one for max memory, one for the
sound cards, targa64+, CD rom etc and one for my network configuration.
By the way, if you don't already know about it, which I didn't, if you add the
/E switch to your MCDEX entry, it will reduce the memory consumption to 15K,
the rest goes in upper memory somewhere, but above the 1k range. ever since I
added this swith, my mmemor management problems got a lot easier.
Cheers,
Tom
John, I have the TB monterey on order right now and was wondering if it might
be a good idea to switch my order. Sorry Murph'. 🙂 Someone mentioned the use
of the Roland Rap10 card. I'm going to be using it with Razor Pro and Quad
Studio, and thought it seemed like a nice card. Especially compared to my 4
year old SB Pro. Actually, the card's probably on its way already…. But let
me know what you think anyway. BTW, I've just read a few chapters on optics and
such in my college physics text. Very interesting material, it's amazing how so
much of it realtes to 3DS. Very useful. Anwyay…
Dave Mennenoh
>>TB or not TB…
Yikes, I don't know, Dave. The biggest reason I didn't like the Monterey was
the 32K of memory space it needed which I couldn't spare in the machine I
needed it in. The second reason was I couldn't make it work, but I didn't
seriously try after finding out about the memory space. The specs looked good,
so I might try it again later in another machine.
I heard from a trusted source some negative comments about the board, but I
heard from another trusted source some positive comments. Who knows? (except
for God, but He might not reply to this thread) And I've never heard anything
about the Roland. One of my stand-alone synths is an old Roland and it sounds
great next to a SB Pro. Actually, nearly anything sounds great next to a SB.
<g>
The TB Tropez doesn't sound bad at all. I hooked up some speakers from
Cambridge SoundWorks (two satelites and a central bass unit) and the sound is
incredible (compared to my ProAudio Spectrum 16!). It doesn't sound as good as
my stand-alone Kurzweil synths, but then not much does. (The card does come
with some fantastic patch editing software that you could lose yourself in for
a year or two.) But it's hard to say what will fit your needs. I don't think
I'm the best person to ask because I'm just playing for now and don't have to
do any real work with this stuff.
If I were to research this seriously, I might check some of the mags like
Keyboard and Electronic Musician. I used to have subscriptions to several
music magazines and they had _discriminating_ reviews on all things MIDI and
musical.
(Optics is eye-opening 🙂
JKJ
Thanks for the reply John. I decided to go with the Monterey and have so far
been very happy. The sound is great from it and yes, compared to my SB Pro
about anything would sound great. Last night I recorded about 2 min. of 44Khz
sound in stereo (16 Mb) and when played back, I could not tell it from the
original CD source. Because the board uses 32K of Upper memory and not
conventional, I didn't lose a thing. With all my drivers loaded, mostly low
actually, I've got almost 550K free at the DOS prompt. Well, thanks again and I
hope you find a card you like.
Dave Mennenoh
Glad you got a chance to "Hear" it David…that's the real beauty of this
board…the specs are one thing but when you actually hear it you'll never go
back to Un-Creative lab(s) Experiments.<BG>
I highly reccomend Trying the Altec Lansing ACS300.1 Speakers…that's what we
use for Shows and important demo's….They really Honk!! :->)
Thanks David.
Murph'
PMJI,
John, I know I've got a bit of an axe to gring here but please hear me out.
I started carrying the TurtleBeach Sound Cards when the Dealer "cost" was $800.
that was almost 3 years ago…that was the original Multisound card. Today's
version of the Multisound is the Monterey. This is still the absolute best
choice for the Windows/RazorPro/Par Combination, don't take my word for it
spend some time on the Turtle Beach Forum and ask around.. I don't know exactly
what your particular problems where installing the card but Had you actually
been able to install the card and listen to it…..say on a pair of Altec
Lansing ACS300.1 you'd understand why there isn't anything that even comes
close.
I Seriously suggest you try to get in touch with someone at Turtle Beach like
Joh Victor 71333,2432 and ask him about how they set up their MIDI mapper, and
yes you do generally have to exclude space in your memory manager:
For example, my orginal Multisound is at d000 therefore:
Device=C:\windows\emm386.exe X=D000-D7ff
This Usually works for me. If it still fails, try a new Ram address for the
Monterey….Windows MSDE.EXE can help you find a good 32K memory block. A hang
up at startup would mean a port conflict, so you may want to try a new port.
3EO is with all four switches to the OFF position on the card. You should have
no problem including E000-Efff in you emm386 for an alternate area.
Regarding the Monterey….it was not considered an "upgrade" to the MultiSound.
It features the new SampleStore technology (wave files as patches) which was
introduced with their Maui card.
the SampleStore technology allows you to take a WAV file and use it as a MIDI
instrument. You are NOT limited to factory-supplied instruments. AND it is
User upgradable with standard SIP to 4 megabytes.
I'd also like to remind you that Turtle Beach was the First to create a Sound
Card that was NOT DMA-based.
Have you tried getting through directly to Turtle Beach I suggest faxing them
direct at 717-767-6033.
If you don't receive satisfactory support call my personal Rep. Steve Calkins
at 919-362-0031 at extension #222 and tell him about it.
It does disturb me that you can pass judgement on a card you haven't even
"Heard" Yet…..Hmmmmmmm
Call me Old Fashion But I usually wait until somethings properly installed
before I review it. <BG>
Murph'
>>PMJI…
Good grief, Murph', I certainly don't mind your jumping in but perhaps you
should read a message twice before sharpening your axe!
Your reply reflects your misunderstanding of what I wrote to Dave and others.
I am well aware of the specifications you mention and did in NO manner review
or pass judgment on this board. (BTW, I did try all the resource resolution
techniques you mentioned, and more). Play this little game: go back and reread
the message you reacted to and see that my problem was with the 32K memory
space requirement, not with the board itself.
Take a deep breath and calm down – you'll feel better and live longer!
JKJ
PS: You sound like an advertisement for Turtle Beach, perhaps a dealer or
something. <g> You might want to read Ian Christie's message #145961
concerning his problem with the Moneterey and his system BIOS – this may help
you to help a future customer. I can forward a copy to you if you didn't save
it.
PPS: Do you realize you sent your message twice? You might want to check your
COM software. I took the liberty of deleting the extra message.
John:
Well, I don't really want to flame Ya' John so I won't but whenever someone
prefices a remark by, "A Reliable source told me….." He's usually getting
ready to talk about something he has no accurate information about at all.
<BG>
You don't happen to work for a major Libral Publication do Ya'? :->)
>> see that my problem was with the 32K memory space requirement, not with the
board itself. <<
Acutally I think David has already pointed out this was a false argument
because this 32K memory space is relocatable with QEMM or many other memory
managers so you are not loading in the lower 640K…..Since your running 3D
Studio I assume your running more than 1MB of RAM..Right?<g?>
>>> Take a deep breath and calm down – you'll feel better and live longer! <<<
In truth I wasn't going to respond at all except your method of complaint
regarding the 32K made it seem like this was being grabbed out of the lower
640K which is false….It doesn't have to be. A simple statement in your
Config.sys using a memory manager moves this high…plus the fact that the
Monterey does not Use DMA….this is a Major Reason to Buy this Card. Not to
Complain. <g>
I was concerned that you were putting out "misinformation" regarding a very
good product.
>>> PS: You sound like an advertisement for Turtle Beach, perhaps a dealer or
something. <g> <<<
I AM a Dealer for this Product…. I thought I made that Clear. Something about
"having sold this product for 3 Years".
>> You might want to read Ian Christie's message #145961<<
Ian Christie should read the message I posted to you and call Turtle Beach
Tech. Support or if he chooses call my rep. Direct to complain if he feels he's
not getting proper support. I haven't read that message but I'm sure TB can
handle it. I've been selling these Cards for 3 Years and Have yet to have a
problem related to the Card or it's drivers in a single setup….usually
clients try to get away with sharing an address with another device…the
BusLogic Controllers is a Great Example. The Card will Seem to work but acts
erraticly..it is not in fact the fault of the card or driver but the fact that
the end-user usually has no idea that his Controller and his Sound Card are
trying to share an address…therefore in the eyes of the end user, it's the
cards fault he doesn't know his system well enough to properly configure the
devices he's installed on it….Go Figure!
I'm surprised John….I thought that you were familier with the "Scientific
Method"? <GR&D>
BTW Do you happen to have a list of all the Addresses and Interupts used by the
devices in _Your_ Computer. <BG>
LaTER!
Murph'
>>Scientific Method…
??? Sheesh! OK Murph', you win – I'm not a flaming kind of guy and see no
benefit in refuting your continued misunderstandings.
John,
>> ""misunderstandings.""<<
Actually that was what I was trying to avoid.
I felt that I understand what you "meant" however that what you "said" could
have been misunderstood.
I didn't want anyone to beleive that they could not load the 32k drivers High
or that the Monterey card was DMA Based.
Yes I am a Dealer and I do sell this card so my intentions can be suspect,
however I recognized the Turtle Beach Card as a Great Product without equal 3
years ago and my original decision to carry the Turtle Beach Product line was
and is based on the fact that it is a quality product. I pride myself on
carrying the best solutions for my clients and I also am the kind of dealer
that sells from personal knowledge and experience with a product I carry. I
do in fact get myself in trouble sometimes because I go too far in explaining
the technical aspects of a product to a client who just needs the best tool and
could care less why it is so. I suspect this is the same problem we find
ourselves in at the present.
My God!!! I'm Starting to sound like Paul!!! ;->)
Somebody Stop me before I buy an Laser Digitizer!!! <GR&D>
Murph'
James, if you would simply read the content of the messages you would see that
you misunderstood most of what I SAID as well as what I meant. We are all very
busy and occasionally misread, but seldom so consistently. You must be busier
than most!
PS, since you obviously try to maintain technical savvy, you should make note
that the 32K you keep talking about is a hardware address "window" and has
nothing to do with "drivers", which are software. This space must be
physically _addressed_ and cannot be "loaded High" as you wrote. If you do not
understand the implications of this difference, you should refrain from giving
technical advice on this level. I intend no offense, just trying to help you.