#What is Sculptor IPAS?
56 messages in this thread
>>Do you (or anyone else) know if there's a demo version available?
There will be one availible; the target date for Sculptor is a week from
Friday, so look for a no-save demo sometime around then.
>>…interface is everything.
Sculptor's interface is set up very much like 3DS's, and it's highly (well, at
least it was for me) intuitive and easy to pick up. I think it should end up
being well received.
John Stetzer
JWS
Thanks, John. I'll look forward to trying out the demo version (and, yes,
undoubtably buying yet another IPAS).
Mike,
4DVision is also listing Sculptor @ $295 (rather than the intended $495
list price) during September.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Kevin –
What else is 4DVision selling at reduced cost during September? Someone
else mentioned you handled 4DVision stuff and 4DVision no longer handles direct
purchasing.
regards
wayne
Wayne,
The 4DVision September promotions list is not in electronic form. Email
me with a fax# and I'll send one out (although it's not effective for much
longer). Yes, we're a dealer, and true, 4DVision/Schreiber no longer sells
direct. If you call them, however, you can get referred to a local authorized
dealer of theirs.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
They have offered all Fractlel Boquet, Fractle Textures, Photo-Realistic
Textures, and Imagine Fader for $200. This is a steal. IMHO
Lee
>> …and Imagine Fader <<
I bought the three SXPs (Fractal Boquet, Fractal Textures, Photo-Realistic
Textures) from Scott at SIGGRAPH but haven't heard of Fader. What is it?
– ej
Did you get special pricing at Siggraph? The developer told me that Fader
should have been included.
IMMAGINE FADER: 4 IXP's
Fader- Allows you to fade an animation in and out. Fade rate is controllable.
Desat- Desaturation, color correction. Adjust the overall luminance and
saturation.
Mask- Independantly fade the red, green, or blue channels of your image to a
preset color.
Lossy- Lossy Compression. Use less memory to store render flic files by
outputting every other line or every other pixel to each frame.
Hope this helps.
Lee
>> Did you get special pricing at Siggraph? <<
Yeah. I got them straight from Scott. We're both PCGnet sysops so we know each
other from the Net but had never met face-to-face before.
I've e-mailed Mike now for more fader info.
Thanks for info, bud!
– ej
Hello Ernie.
I you didn't receive Fader ask Scot and he should give it to you. One problem
with fader it will not work with Z-buffer in version 4. You need too turn
Z-buffer off in the set file. If you have any problems getting it I'll E-mail
it to you.
Mike White [SDP]
Thanx for jumping in Mike. It's good to know that I'm still geting valid info.
🙂
Lee
>> I you didn't receive Fader ask Scot and he should give it to you. <<
Thanks Mike.
Did it come on separate disks or on the same 3 disk Imagine set? I have the
routines in my process directory but have no separate documentation or disks.
I'd not noticed them before because I've not seen them listed in the documents.
– ej
<<<Did it come on separate disks or on the same 3 disk Imagine set?>>>
Yes it came out as Imagine Fader. If you have any problems let me know I get it
right to you. I think Scot wont have any problem including them in future
sales. I thought they were.
>There will be one availible; the target date for Sculptor is a week from
Friday
> 4DVision is also listing Sculptor @ $295 (rather than the intended $495 list
price) during September.
Ah, so they are selling a product which hasn't been released yet, and without a
demo version I can try, at a reduced price until the actual release? Clever —
kind of like the pig in a poke idea. Maybe they should try selling cars like
that — you know, buy at a special reduced price until you can actually see
what our car looks like, at which point the price goes way up ("Coming for 1996
— the all new, four door White Elephant!").
Thanks, but no thanks. While I'm very interested in additional modeling tools,
I think you really do have to to try them before you buy (particularly when the
images demonstrating it have so far not been what I would call stellar). I'll
wait for the demo version, and if I like it I guess I'll have to wait for the
price to drop (probably when MAX ships — :>)
Sculptor is a very straight forward NURBS modeler and it's very easy to use.
Mike
What exactly are NURBS? I know itstands for NOn-Unfiorm-
Rational-B-Slpines, but what exactly does that mean? Are they similiar does
the splines in Hash's Animation Master?
Thanks
Jason
I guess it means not your normal way of using B-splines. I was talking to Keith
and he had mentioned the there will be deformation over time. Meaning it will
be like Hash's animation capabilities. The user can animate a character as a
solid NURBS mesh over time.
Mike
Is it a true trimmed surface nurbs modeller or just a bezier patch modeller?
True trimmed NURBS surfaces. Trimming was one of the time consumming
features we thought would be very useful. An good example of using the trimming
feature would be to create a bottle which contains almost all curves. Trim the
bottle to make it broken with a jagged edge. The trimmed surface will be one
side or the other of the trim line. Copy the object complete with trim line.
(Standard hold-shift and move to clone will do) Then invert the trimmed surface
and you have two objects to make a broken bottle that match exactly. The curved
surface is also still an exact match to the original bottle. This broken bottle
example is shipped with the product and takes about 15 min to make.
The trim command draws on the object with a 3D surface trace. You
actually are moving the mouse and the cursor flows across and around the
object. Page-up/Page-down change the rate the cursor moves across the surface
so you can select exactly the spot on the object for placing the trim line.
Keith. line.
Just as Keith said Peter.
Mike
Jason,
Hash does it's own type of spline geometry, they're called "Hash patches" 🙂
I've done some cool stuff with Playmation -> 3DS, but it's a bit different than
3DS in feel. It took me a little while to get comfortable with it. NURBS are
(I believe) more "accurate", and more complex than A:M's patch style. I don't
think I've ever used NURBS, so I can't say for sure.. other than they're
different. 🙂
JNJ
NURBS – Non-Uniform Rational B-Splines.
NURBS is a mathmatical model for representing curves, surfaces or
solids. The math can represent any other type of geometric object like box,
sphere or plane. Generally NURBS are smooth surfaces and can easily be molded
in whatever shape is required. NURBS can be spliced or fused to add more
geometry to a model. The connection can be smooth or sharp and the connection
will not split as more molding is done.
A patch modeler is just that, a commonly connected set of patches. A
NURBS modeler can be run as a patch modeler because the patch mathmatics is a
sub-element of the NURBS math. A NURBS modeler can also function as a spline
modeler as splines are also a sub-element of the mathmatics. A NURBS modeler
will only be as good as the tools and the interface available to the user. Any
object can be modeled using NURBS. Once an object has been modeled with NURBS
the object then can be optimized base on the surface math to create faces in
the locations with the most detail. This face optimizition nevers changes the
mathmatical model only the representation so it can be changed anytime and
still can return to the orginial.
Keith.
Thanks for the detailed desc. of NURBS.
JNJ
>While I'm very interested in additional modeling tools, I think you really do
have to to try them before you buy (particularly when the images demonstrating
it have so far not been what I would call stellar).<
That is the same thing I thought.
>>>While I'm very interested in additional modeling tools, I think you really
do have to to try them before you buy >>>(particularly when the images
demonstrating it have so far not been what I would call stellar).<
>>That is the same thing I thought.
Sorry Tim, I'll try to do better w/my next upload :^).FWIW, the dragon's head
was done in about 2 hour's a day after getting the beta, and the robot's head
took about 4 1/2 hours (I was working at trying to duplicate an old airbrush
picture I did), which should at least speak for it's ease of use.
John Stetzer
JWS
Let me state again (for the public record): I haven't seen your images, John.
I'm going to go to ASHOWCASE now and d/l them, but I was referring to the
images posted in the IPAS section (found when you use Sculptor as a key word).
That's the real problem with the lack of space here — I really think CI$
should relent and give ADESK a larger area. Aren't we making money for them?
(I'll tell you one thing for sure — if ADesk wasn't here, I'd have cancelled
my account a long time ago and gone for straight I-net access).
>>That's the real problem with the lack of space here
True…I forget that not everybody checks both forums, perhaps I should load my
next Sculptor pic. to this forum, should Ann permit it.
>>It isn't a substitute for me actually using the program (even if I can't save
a mesh)
I'll include myself in the 'I want to see demos before I buy' group :^).
>>(did you do the robot's "hair" with Sculptor, or just the head?)
Both; the hair and head were modelled in Sculptor, and the hair was modified
further in 3DS to 'fit' better.
John Stetzer
JWS
PS. I just reread my email to you…I thought just clarifying some of the
questions you raised (I sent via email because I'd missed your initial post and
was quoting from Tim's message); after rereading it I'd like to offer you an
apology. It definately reads as if I was having a snit; please believe me, that
was not my intent at all. My sincerest apologies for my poor manners towards
you, I did not intend that, and I won't let it happen again :^).
Mike –
Just so you kow we are at the absolute maximum that CIS allocates to anyone for
both message and library space. To the best of my knowledge there are no plans
at this time to expand the library allocation. I'll be the first person to
stand aup and yell!! if there is any way of getting more space.
Thank heaven Autodesk opened up ASHOWCASE as mainly a library forum. Gives us a
great storage place <G>
Anne
John,
Your images are certainly "stellar" — much better at at least letting me know
that nice things can be done with Sculptor. It isn't a substitute for me
actually using the program (even if I can't save a mesh) but I did want to
clear up any miscommunication (did you do the robot's "hair" with Sculptor, or
just the head?).
Mike,
I absolutely agree with you. I was surprised that Sculptor was on the
sale list, but without a demo available. Possibly it was intended to be
available earlier. Let's not forget that Autodesk is requiring pre-purchase of
the MAX migration before the product ships (although we do get to see it at
shows).
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
> Let's not forget that Autodesk is requiring pre-purchase of the MAX migration
before the product ships
Yeah, but I think there's a magnitude of difference in getting what (despite
Autodesk keeps saying) is an upgrade on a dynamic product for less than 20% of
the original purchase price, and buying a brand new, untested product sight
unseen. (And I haven't forgotten to get my Serial # to you to hold my MAX —
just need to get the time and get off my #$#%).
I'm honestly interested in better modeling tools, and I suspect I'm going to
even like (and want) Sculptor — but I think we're all in agreement that this
is the sort of thing you need to test drive. Let's hope it was just a typo or
a slight case of jumping the gun to you dealers — maybe you can check with 4D
about it?
Mike,
I spoke to 4DVision. A Sculptor demo is expected in about a week and a
half, and will be uploaded. The September sales schedule has been extended
through October, so you'll have ample opportunity.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Thanks, that sounds reasonable.
I assume that, if I like it, I can order from you? (Did I read somewhere that
4DVision no longer sells direct?) I'll let you know in about a week and a half
:>.
Hi Mike-
>> Ah, so they are selling a product which hasn't been released yet, and
without a demo version I can try, at a reduced price until the actual release?
Clever — kind of like the pig in a poke idea. Maybe they should try selling
cars like that — you know, buy at a special reduced price until you can
actually see what our car looks like, at which point the price goes way up
("Coming for 1996 — the all new, four door White Elephant!").
4DVISION is NOT selling Sculptor yet. We have just tried to inform the dealer
channel of it pending release, pricing, and shipping schedule. Kevin was just
trying to be informative. The product was put on the dealer price list in
error. The dealers will be receiving there copies next week for demonstration
and a save disabled version demo will be posted shortly. As will be the 1.8
demo version of key Factory.
It will be introduced at a lower price for a limited time to those that wish
to become early adopters. Your choice is your own and there WILL be a demo
posted.
The folks that are talking about the product are part of the beta test team.
Scot Susmann
4DVISION
-4DVISION
Scot,
Thanks for clarifying the promotional 4DVision pricing to folks. I
understand there are a few other new products that should be popping up soon
(Sculptor is just one of them).
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
This stuff sounds cool…
Where will this demo be posted?
M. Samia at Blizzard Entertainment
>>Where will this demo be posted?
Should be up in IPAS usage library as we speak :^).
John Stetzer
JWS
>> (the demo) Should be up in IPAS usage library as we speak :^).
Ok, I did download the demo and it is interesting BUT when I tried to use it,
I could not render the examples provided. Since I can understand that saving to
3D Studio would make it a free product, one or two of the examples should have
been rendered and the images included in the download so as to compare to the
mesh that created it. Just a thought from a lurker.
>>I could not render the examples provided.
By this, do you mean that hitting alt-r while in the IPAS wouldn't create a
shaded render in the active window, or something else? Sorry, I haven't
downloaded the demo, so I don't know what the problem might be.
John Stetzer
JWS
>> By this, do you mean that hitting alt-r while in the IPAS
>> wouldn't create a shaded render in the active window,
>> or something else? Sorry, I haven't downloaded the demo,
>> so I don't know what the problem might be.
Ok, I have done the shaded render now (having overlooked it before) but it is
not the complete picture, so to speak. It gives an idea of the appearance but
a 3DS render would be even nicer.
P.S. I also encountered a minor difference in the interface for the demo as
compared to 3DS. If one has clicked on a menu item and then clicks on another
menu item, the menu vanishes. One must click again on the new menu item to get
it. 3DS immediately shifts to the newly selected menu item with only one
click.
Just a thought (actually 2) from a lurker.
>>It gives an idea of the appearance but a 3DS render would be even nicer.
Ah, ok. Well, the dragon's head picture I uploaded (SCLPTDRG.JPG) has both the
geometry as exported from Sculptor, as well as the end result of what I did
w/the geometry. The top part of the head is the default color, w/the other two
pieces given different colors just to differentiate them. The pieces were
exported using Opt. Convert w/a smoothing factor of .05 (a very slight smooth)
which, in the case of the top part of the head, dropped the face count from
63K for a straight export to around 20k, w/little to no loss in detail. Is this
what you're looking for WRT a 3DS render?
John Stetzer
JWS
Several images have been uploaded that are in final rendered form.
Is this what you mean? We do have more…..
Scot
-4DVISION
Sculptor also has a very complete manual. The manual has a large number
of graphics showing exactly what each tool does. The program has roughly 90
commands and most of them you can try and will quickly understand what they do.
Keith.
I seem to remember, Keith, that you work for 4D — can you elaborate on the
Sept. pricing? I mean, is this special price truly set to run out before the
product is released, and (if so) could you not see clear to at least letting us
see a demo version before then?
I'd really like to be talked into buying another IPAS (heck, it hardly takes
more than a slight twist of my arm) but this is one I just can't buy without
trying (and as for raising your price, I'll tell you honestly — for the price
of MAX, this IPAS would have to do a #$$# of a lot more than just model, and
I'll bet you I'm not going to be the only one who feels that way).
Hello Mike,
Yes, I work for 4DVision and I am one of the authors of Sculptor. The
September pricing I know very little about but I do think it ends in September.
Sculptor will retail at $495 but will be priced right now at $300 or
something like that. I do not know how long the lower price will last but I
would guess at least the month of October.
As far as I know 3D Studio MAX will not include a NURBS modeler. We are
planning a MAX version of Sculptor. MAX versions of our software will be
considered upgrades from existing products and in all cases will contain more
than the current version. Our upgrade pricing has always been fair.
A demo version of Sculptor is available starting next week.
Keith.
Thanks, Keith, for the reply. I do intend on taking a hard look at Sculptor,
because (as with many) I have not been happy with my abilities to use the
modeling tools currently available. I'm glad a demo version will be posted,
because I suspect that I'll be able to tell within a short period of time
whether this tool is the tool for me (something with a "Make Art" button!).
I hope the demo posted will at least have enough documentation to walk us
through a sample modeling so we can get an idea of how this thing is supposed
to be used.
The demo does have a couple of ASCII files with a short description of
how to run the program. Most of the functions you should understand without the
much docs.
The demo disk is ready now. Dealer versions will be shipping very
shortly. Sculptor will be ready for the first customer ship when manuals
arrive.
Keith.
>The demo disk is ready now
So when will it be posted? (Like I said, this is one IPAS I'm very interested
in).
Keith:
Just wanted to drop you a note to say how good it is to see you up here on a
regular basis! Aren't they working you hard enough these days? :^)
Greg Pyros
I can browse the forum from time to time but it is hard for me to find
regular time up here. Sometimes I am lurking but not talking as it takes more
time to respond.
Keith.
>> Sculptor also has a very complete manual. The manual has a large number of
graphics showing exactly what each tool does. <<
That's very encouraging to hear. Many IPAS routines seem to have very sparse
manuals. I don't know if anybody else agrees w/ me but I'd like to see a _LOT_
more time spent on the manuals. I want to see more tutorial demos, tips and
usage warnings w/ every IPAS.
IMHO, there's no excuse for a company spending 6 months+ coding the product
and two days or less documenting it.
– ej
> I don't know if anybody else agrees w/ me
Hey, here's a BIG vote for as much documentation as anyone can stand. Have you
ever heard anyone complain "Hey, this product has too much documentation!"
(well, maybe the 3 lbs of VC++ from MS :>)? In the case of IPAS or speciality
products (such as WB) that third parties will almost never write anything about
(I haven't seen New Riders IPAS book, however) it's critical that the software
authors spend as much time as possible outlining all the things they can think
of. In many cases, they are literally writing the first and last word on the
software.
A good beta can provide a lot of this — when I beta software I write up
procedures and techniques and pass it along (some of it makes it in the
actually product!).
>> Have you ever heard anyone complain "Hey, this product has too much
documentation!" … it's critical that the software authors spend as much time
as possible outlining all the things they can think of. In many cases, they
are literally writing the first and last word on the software. <<
Good point! It's not like we're ever gonna see a third party book on
WHIZBANG.AXP, so it's manual better be the definitive book on the subject and
we users better be able to hit the ground running after reading it. Many times
I end up spending hours w/ a routine just trying to get even a slightly
way-kewl look. (but maybe that's more a commentary about me… Nah… <g>)
– ej
WHIZBANG.AXP??? What did I miss? Where can I get it? Is the whiz animatable, or
just the bang? I don't care how much it costs; I GOTTA have it!!! <BG>
No good excuse for a poor manual. Time and cost at this stage in the
product cycle is the general problem. Most of the IPAS programs out are first
releases. It takes a solid month after the program is complete to be able to
finish the documentation. Tutorals can not be done at all until the program is
finished but need to be created before the documentation is completed. On a
first version of a product this is generally to costly. As the products get
upgraded the manual and tutorals have a bases to start from and will not take
as long to complete after the changes to the program have been made.
For example, 3D Studio still drags around some of the same example mesh
files from 3 years ago. I would expect that some of the R4 example 3DS files
will be loaded, converted and included again in MAX. A good example will still
be a good example.
We need to get products out as soon as possible after the programming is
complete. Products like Key Factory were worked on for more than a year which
is a lot of sunk cost. With a second version, the first version contains to
provide revenue while finishing the release which makes waiting easier.
Keith.