CompuServe Thread

#Picasso Help

50 messages in this thread
#216146From: Teig LevingstonOct 22, 1995 5:40 AM
I am having trouble using my new Picasso board with some software, in particular Dpaint and Brilliance. I have RTFM and still cant get it to work. I have set the Dpaint screens to every possibility I can think of but the only thing that works is to plug my 1084 into my RGB port and run it that way. Is that the solution? When I try to run Dpaint on my SV monitor I get various types of screens, none of which is useable, and th proram will usually hang or guru. Brilliance causes the macine to lock up and shows a flashing square in the center of whatever screen is showing regardless of what monitor is hooked up Thanks, any help will be greatly appreciated.
#216166From: Norman AustinOct 22, 1995 9:46 AM
Teig, DPaint V will work on a Picasso screen, but neither the other DPaint's nor Brilliance will work. Regards, Norman Austin 70743,1535
#216219From: John DraperOct 22, 1995 7:43 PM
Norman, <DPaint V will work on a Picasso screen> I've gotten DPaint V to load up on a Picasso screen, but it doesn't work properly. It saves out garbage at 256 colors, and has other, rather odd problems (brush won't stamp down) at lower color levels but still on the Picasso (even 16 color Picasso screens aren't 100% functional). This is using OS 3.1 I've spoken with other Picasso/DPaintV owners who have even worse problems with the program. In at least one case (A3000, OS 3.1, Picasso) the machine would crash badly if you clicked on anything. Asha @}–,–`–
#216348From: Chris ShepardOct 23, 1995 7:25 PM
Asha, <<(even 16 color Picasso screens aren't 100% functional). This is using OS 3.1>> I believe it's your 3.1 that's the culprit, and not the Picasso. I remember reading that there were bugs when used with 3.1 and Electronic Arts said they would do nothing to fix them. 🙁 If you have another OS chip, try it for the hell of it and see if I'm right. I know it's a pain to open the computer up, but when you're feeling bored give it a try. Best of luck. AMIGA—–The Future Is Now! Chris Shepard: 030/50 A2000 with Toaster 4000 & MacIIfx via Emplant.
#216474From: John DraperOct 24, 1995 6:16 PM
Chris, < I believe it's your 3.1 that's the culprit, and not the Picasso. I remember reading that there were bugs when used with 3.1 and Electronic Arts said they would do nothing to fix them.> Great…Sometimes I really wonder where the programmers at EA were (brain wise) those last couple of years….sigh…. <If you have another OS chip, try it for the hell of it and see if I'm right. I know it's a pain to open the computer up, but when you're feeling bored give it a try.> I'm softkicking 3.1, so, in theory, I could probably get back to 2.04 withouth too much trouble, but, the Picasso wouldn't work as well that way and I'm certain that I wouldn't be willing to boot back to 2.04 just to use DPaint V. I've got OpalPaint, Photogenics and ImageFX, all of which I prefer to DPaint anyway. The only thing I use DPaint for anymore is simple printing jobs (like a form I use to keep track of my bills). Thanks for the information though. Asha @}–,–`–
#216576From: steve pondOct 25, 1995 3:59 PM
Asha, Sorry for not paying attention from the start of this thread.. but are you having trouble with DPaint and Picasso? I Have WB3.1 and a Picasso card in an A2000 and I use DPaint 3 all the time, (Call me a luddite..) I use the pass-through mode and it works fine.. Steve
#216751From: John DraperOct 26, 1995 8:38 PM
Steve, <but are you having trouble with DPaint and Picasso?> I am having trouble with DPaint V and the Picasso, or with OS 3.1, not sure which is the one causing the problems (my vote goes to DPaint V). I can use DPaint in hi-res 16 colors (even V) by-passing the Picasso, but DPaint V is supposed to work in 256 colors on the Picasso board. It doesn't do it very well (rather badly as a matter of fact). DPaint IV and previous DPaint will work just fine passed through though. Asha @}–,–`–
#216846From: steve pondOct 27, 1995 12:45 PM
Ah, Ok, I misunderstood your problem, I never bothered with DPaint after III , (Which I LOVE ..I see it as the graphics equivalent of that small text editor you always have laying about.. <g>) I use Personal Paint for my pixel painting these days.. I find it easier to use that Photogenics, it has Picasso support and allows 20+ undos.. (Plus it comes in a real cool tin!) Steve
#216875From: James TopperOct 27, 1995 6:13 PM
> I use Personal Paint for my pixel painting these days.. < Steve, care to give a more in depth review of Personal Paint? I would be interested in something that works with a Picasso II, and I think Asha would too. Jim
#216936From: steve pondOct 28, 1995 5:18 AM
Hi Jim, (again!) The latest version of Personal paint (6.4) comes on a cd called "The personal suite" from Colanto and is -excellent- value for money, for 40 UK pounds not only does it contain PP but it has Sbase, Personal write PFM (Personal Font Maker), oodles of clipart, even more animations from the likes of Eric Schwartz and others, texts to famous book.. just TONS of stuff.. even some internal file handling software that Colananto use in-house to complile their own releases.. plus it comes in a very sexy tin! ..I do however get the feeling they have nothing left on their machines worth releasing it really is warts and all.. The reason I bought the package was PP, it seems to me to be a kind of grown up DPaint, many of the same commands but working in much higher resolutions and in many colors, the Picasso support is seemless, I ran it for the first time and it selected the best Picasso mode without "changescreen" knowing it was there.. I tend to work in 256 colours, it lets you magnify stuff over and over so you really can get into single pixels on big images.. you can have 9 brushes active at once, it has some image manipualtion filters, emboss, rub through etc.. above all it`s fast. On my machine (A2000, 030 @ 40mhz) Photogenics takes an age an the paint always drags behind the brush, PP is instant. It has many undos as your RAM will allow.. The only draw-backs are 1) it sometimes opens stuff in strage screen modes.. ie if you have a small picture and open in 256 colour mode it will open a tiny high res PP in the corner.. it`s not a problem to make it full screen though, one option on the main menu sorts it. and 2) it has the annoying habit of saving the whole screen not just the bit your working on.. cue acres of black stuff around your picture.. there must be a way around this, but I`ve only had this version for a week and havn`t played as much as I`d like.. Over-all I like it! P.S. Full PNG support.
#217019From: James TopperOct 28, 1995 7:14 PM
> The latest version of Personal paint (6.4) comes on a cd called "The personal suite" from Colanto and is -excellent- value for money < > Over-all I like it! < Steve, thanks for the review! Hope Asha reads it too. One question, when you're in 256 color mode, does PP buffer the image as 24 bit, or only 256 color? I know Photogenics will do that. What you have in essence is a 256 color preview image on the screen. I'm going to have to look for a US distributer for PP. 🙂 Jim
#216891From: John DraperOct 27, 1995 7:39 PM
Steve, <I use Personal Paint for my pixel painting these days.. I find it easier to use that Photogenics, it has Picasso support and allows 20+ undos.. (Plus it comes in a real cool tin!)> I'm really interested in that package. It was on my list of programs to buy 'til I heard it was being bundled with the new machines. Now I'll get to try it out for a while before upgrading to the full version. Glad to hear it supports the Picasso board. How does it deal with stencils and gradients? One of the things I really like about OpalPaint is the fact you can use either color stencils or mask stencils or BOTH and that they've got 8 different gradient types that one can use either plain or wit adjustable transparancies. Asha @}–,–`–
#216866From: Norman AustinOct 27, 1995 4:20 PM
Asha, I have noticed the color problem, but have experienced none of the other problems with my Picasso and DPaint V. Sorry to have taken so long to respond to your message, but my system hard drive died Sunday to keep me from attending the conference. How did the conference go? Regards, Norman Austin 70743,1535
#217002From: John DraperOct 28, 1995 6:14 PM
Norman, <I have noticed the color problem, but have experienced none of the other problems with my Picasso and DPaint V.> It does seem that different people have different problems when it comes to DPaint V the Picasso and OS 3.1. I have a friend who can load it up fine (A3000/OS 3.1/Picasso) but when he clicks on anything the whole system freezes. It's really a shame they didn't take the time to make sure it worked properly. <Sorry to have taken so long to respond to your message, but my system hard drive died Sunday to keep me from attending the conference. How did the conference go?> Sorry to hear about your hardrive death. The conference was well attended and quite a bit of fun. I'm still editing it, and will upload it (as well as the transcript from the PAWS CO) "soon"…:) Asha @}–,–`–
#217143From: Chris ShepardOct 29, 1995 7:19 PM
<<It's really a shame they didn't take the time to make sure it worked properly.>> I think I know why. I read in the latest Video Toaster mag that the only "authorized" release of 3.1 was for the 4000. All of the other 3.1 chips are "unauthorized" releases, so maybe this is why EA did nothing to support 3.1. NewTek also say the same thing regarding the Toaster; they won't guarantee compatability and won't support 3.1 UNTIL it's official released. (Just for note: I've had no problems with 3.1 and the Toaster on my A2000.) AMIGA—–The Future Is Now! Chris Shepard: 030/50 A2000 with Toaster 4000 & MacIIfx via Emplant.
#216533From: Teig LevingstonOct 25, 1995 12:53 AM
Thank you, I guess it is time to upgrade, do you recommend Dpaint V or a another package?
#216615From: John DraperOct 25, 1995 8:16 PM
Teig, <do you recommend Dpaint V or a another package?> If you're running OS 3.X I'd reccomend either Photogenics or Brilliance over DPaint V anyday. Both of those are still being supported (I'm sure about Photogenics, fairly sure about Brilliance) where DPaint V is the end of the line for that program, and a fairly buggy end of the line too…sigh… Asha @}–,–`–
#216867From: Norman AustinOct 27, 1995 4:20 PM
Teig, If you can afford it, I would recommend ImageFX for painting and image processing and Brilliance for animation. I realize using Brilliance doesn't allow you to use the Picasso modes, but it is much faster than DPaint V, uses the same keyboard equivalents and IMHO has superior animation controls. Regards, Norman Austin 70743,1535
#216961From: Chris ShepardOct 28, 1995 10:46 AM
<<I realize using Brilliance doesn't allow you to use the Picasso modes, but it is much faster than DPaint V…>> I read that Personal Paint also has animation capabilities too, except it DOES support the Picasso modes. What are your opinions on this? AMIGA—–The Future Is Now! Chris Shepard: 030/50 A2000 with Toaster 4000 & MacIIfx via Emplant.
#216998From: Teig LevingstonOct 28, 1995 4:54 PM
I also prefer Brilliance to Dpaint IV especially for animation but I am very interested in hearing what people have to say about Personal Paint! Especially if it supports Picasso modes, even if that means you cant Gen- lock onto the signal. Does anyone know if one of the PeeCee Genlocks will work with the Picasso Signal or do they require another card?
#216202From: James TopperOct 22, 1995 5:47 PM
> I am having trouble using my new Picasso board with some software, in particular Dpaint and Brilliance. I have RTFM and still cant get it to work.< It would be helpful if you would list your system, when asking for help. I'm assuming you're running ChangeScreen in your WBStartup dir? I have a Picasso II in a 3000, and ChangeScreen will come up and ask which screen mode you want Brilliance or Dpaint to open. Just select the default size. That works for me. If you are using a SVGA monitor, without a flicker fixer, the standard Amiga resolutions, ie. 15Mhz, will not work on it. If you'll supply more detailed information about your system, I'll try and offer better suggestions. Jim
#216534From: Teig LevingstonOct 25, 1995 12:58 AM
Thanks and sorry for not following the rules, I have an A2000 with a VXL a 52 meg HD and a Zip Drive. I am using an SVGA monitor 31.5 mHz. I will try your suggestion of using the default mode. I get a picture on the monitor but it is usually unusable. The 6400×480 Picasso screen is less than 1/4 size and everything else is shifted to the right and wraps around, that is if I move the mouse far enough to the right it appears and selects items on the left hand side of the screen.
#216616From: John DraperOct 25, 1995 8:16 PM
Teig, <The 6400×480 Picasso screen is less than 1/4 size and everything else is shifted to the right and wraps around, that is if I move the mouse far enough to the right it appears and selects items on the left hand side of the screen.> I'm assuming you meant to type 640X480…. Above, are you talking about your normal Picasso screens? If so, you need to make some adjustments in PicassoMode to get a more full screen. I'm running my Picasso in that same mode and it fills the screen except for a small (1/4 inch) border on the right and left. If this isn't your problem, never mind….:) Asha @}–,–`–
#216642From: Teig LevingstonOct 26, 1995 2:20 AM
I have the 1/4 inch black border around my picasso screens too. That has : something to do with the way SVGA works, The border may have been there in the Amiga modes but wasnt noticeable. No the problem I have is really bad, everything is very distorted when I try to run Dpaint through my Picasso onto my SVGA monitor. I am running OS3.1, I forgot to mention that before. While I am typing does anyone else use a Zip Drive. I picked one up and it works great except that if I insert the disk before turning on the computer I will get a message saying that DZ0: disk is not bootable, if I reset the computer, warm boot, everything is fine. If I dont have a disk in I have to run the SCSI controller program from the GVP Faastprep disk to get it to recognize the drive. I have, again an A2000 with a VXL 030/33/2meg accel lerator, a GVP HC+ with 4 megs and Version 4 rom, and the picasso and Zip. I was thinking that I might need to update the Rom but unless I know for sure that is it I'd rather not, I have looked at all of the mountlist entries I could find and everything looks OK there too.
#216742From: James TopperOct 26, 1995 7:56 PM
> No the problem I have is really bad, everything is very distorted when I try to run Dpaint through my Picasso onto my SVGA monitor. < Teig, the problem is with the SVGA monitor. It will not sync down to the 15Mhz that the Amiga uses for it's standard screen resolutions. If the Picasso II can't promote a screen resolution, it will pass it through. Since you're trying to use DPaint, which isn't promotable, it is passing the 15Mhz Amiga screen display to your SVGA monitor. The only way around that is to have some kind of flicker fixer to scan double the Amiga display's frequency. Jim
#216994From: Teig LevingstonOct 28, 1995 4:45 PM
Thanks, I think I understand now.. I guess a better way to end the screen promotion problem would be to have a multiscan monitor. What I have done is just leave my RGB connected to my 1084 and have two monitors, I just have to watch how close together they are because they interfere. I still can use my 1084 in composite with my genlock this way too. Do you know what the problem between the Picasso and Brilliance is. Since I have installed the card Brilliance wont run in any mode. thanks,
#217124From: James TopperOct 29, 1995 4:38 PM
> Do you know what the problem between the Picasso and Brilliance is. Since I have installed the card Brilliance wont run in any mode. thanks, < I can't remember off hand, since I don't use Brillance any longer. I *think* I remember something about the monitor driver for the Picasso II being the problem. Which version do you use of the Picasso software? If you don't have the latest versions, that might be the problem with screen promotion. Jim
#217170From: John DraperOct 29, 1995 9:44 PM
Teig, <Do you know what the problem between the Picasso and Brilliance is. Since I have installed the card Brilliance wont run in any mode.> Brilliance was written to the AGA chipset, and doesn't want to be promoted. You should be able to pass through the program to ou 1084 monitor though. Check ChangeScreen, make sure Brilliance is set to <DEFAULT>. Then you should be able to pass through. Asha @}–,–`–
#216756From: John DraperOct 26, 1995 8:39 PM
Teig, <No the problem I have is really bad, everything is very distorted when I try to run Dpaint through my Picasso onto my SVGA monitor. I am running OS3.1, I forgot to mention that before> I don't know anything SVGA monitors. You may want to read the monitor specs. Perhaps you didn't pick the correct monitor (31, 38, whatever) when you set it up for that monitor. I'm using a NEC 3D multisync with my Picasso and after setting things up in PicassoMode, everything is correctly centered with a minimum of black border. However, DPaint IV is not promotable, which is why it's not looking or working right when you try to promote it. You might want to consider getting a different monitor, one that syncs down to 15.7khz (or whatever the hertz thing is) as well as up to 31 etc.. Asha @}–,–`–
#216996From: Teig LevingstonOct 28, 1995 4:48 PM
Thanks, I'm saving my pennies for a great big new multisync but unless my ship comes in it will be a while,
#216721From: Chris ShepardOct 26, 1995 5:53 PM
<<The 6400×480 Picasso screen is less than 1/4 size and everything else is shifted to the right and wraps around…>> What about the monitor itself? I know I had to adjust mine some in order to get the screens to fill the monitor and be centered, etc. AMIGA—–The Future Is Now! Chris Shepard: 030/50 A2000 with Toaster 4000 & MacIIfx via Emplant.
#216993From: Teig LevingstonOct 28, 1995 4:41 PM
I had to adjust the monitor some too. The screen I get is very small and everthing is miniature. I have hooked my 1084 back up and Dpaint IV works but Brilliance still does not. Evidently there is a conflict caused just by having the card installed. thanks
#216218From: John DraperOct 22, 1995 7:43 PM
Teig, <I am having trouble using my new Picasso board with some software, in particular Dpaint and Brilliance.> Neither DPaint nor Brilliance will promote and work properly with third party graphics boards. However, Photogenics will, and works like a dream on the Picasso; I have it. Asha @}–,–`–
#216449From: C. Davey UtterOct 24, 1995 2:29 PM
>However, Photogenics will, and works like a dream on the Picasso; I have >it. What operating system version are you using it with? . C. Davey
#216607From: John DraperOct 25, 1995 8:14 PM
Davey, <What operating system version are you using it with?> Using both the Picasso and Photogenics on OS 3.1. Asha @}–,–`–
#216535From: Teig LevingstonOct 25, 1995 1:00 AM
Thanks, with a recommendation like that I will have to look hard at the photogenics package. Did you ever try the TVpaint program?
#216609From: John DraperOct 25, 1995 8:15 PM
Teig, <Thanks, with a recommendation like that I will have to look hard at the photogenics package. Did you ever try the TVpaint program?> I got TVPaint JR with my Picasso board, and did look (a bit) at SR at a friend's house. I have to say I was not impressed at all with it, certainly not enough to spend several hundred dollars to upgrade from Jr. to Sr.. My favorite paint program remains OpalPaint, but Photogenics has started out very strong and I see a lot of potential there for a truly great program! Asha @}–,–`–
#216641From: Teig LevingstonOct 26, 1995 2:09 AM
Thanks, I was getting pretty handy at Brilliance, Im gonna miss it. I have been able to get Dpaint IV to run by plugging my 1084 back into my RGB output. It works in a pinch. The real problem is that unless I do just that my genlock is useless. I have read a little about the pablo but it sounds like it outputs directly to a vcr not to a genlock so I am not sure how useful it is. Sorta hate to change the subject but I was wondering if anyone has been receiving any Amiga Computing US edition magazines, I got a couple after Amigaworld went under but after I sent in a renewal and request for disks I havent heard anything at all
#216755From: John DraperOct 26, 1995 8:39 PM
Teig, You can use Brilliance the same way you're using DPaint IV if you prefer it to DPaint. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the Pablo to help you with that one. Hopefully someone else will know and chime in…. Asha @}–,–`–
#216995From: Teig LevingstonOct 28, 1995 4:46 PM
Thanks, Im still trying to get brilliance to work though. Are you using it?
#217162From: John DraperOct 29, 1995 9:43 PM
Teig, <Im still trying to get brilliance to work though. Are you using it?> No, I bought it when it first came out (v1.0) and had a dongle. I wasn't impressed with the interface, all those windows over windows, drove me nuts. And the dongle finished the job. Sold it early on. Had I an AGA machine I may have made more of an effort to like it, but on this ECS (at that time without even a Picasso board) machine it wasn't very impressive. I've heard it got much better in version 2.0 though. Asha @}–,–`–
#216722From: Chris ShepardOct 26, 1995 5:53 PM
<<Photogenics has started out very strong and I see a lot of potential there for a truly great program!>> Is there Cybergraphics support yet? I tried the demo, but all I got on my Picasso was some ugly dotted colors etc. Can you work with 256 color up to 24 bit color real time painting w/ Picasso and/or Cybergraphics now? If so, I may give it a look see. Isn't there support for Toaster Framestores? AMIGA—–The Future Is Now! Chris Shepard: 030/50 A2000 with Toaster 4000 & MacIIfx via Emplant.
#216887From: John DraperOct 27, 1995 7:38 PM
Chris, <Is there Cybergraphics support yet? I tried the demo, but all I got on my Picasso was some ugly dotted colors etc. Can you work with 256 color up to 24 bit color real time painting w/ Picasso and/or Cybergraphics now? If so, I may give it a look see. > Cybergraphics support came in the last upgrade. I haven't installed it on my Picasso board but I've been told you get 24 bit painting with Cyber installed. With just the Picasso software, you do get 256 colors and there is a Picasso "save" (similar to the Opal "save" in AdPro, which just lets you see the pic on an Opalboard) which will show you your work in 24 bit even with just the Picasso software. <Isn't there support for Toaster Framestores?> Don't see that anywhere, though I could have missed it. You might be confusing this with ImageFX, which does support Framstores, I think. Asha @}–,–`–
#216899From: MICHAEL SMITHOct 27, 1995 7:59 PM
The North American version of Photogenics supports toaster ..load/save framestore.. quite good! There's a bit of confusion as to WHO'S selling the NA version.. I bought my first one at a dealer who will remain nameless and bought the CORRECT version for a bit more from the Friendly/Knowledgeable folks at ANTIGRAVITY PRODUCTS in CA. Don't get fooled by buying the WRONG version- ask them to GUARANTEE it's the NA v1.25- I find Photogenics to have lots of promise.. I just ordered the Cybergraphx sw for my Picasso so hope to get even more into it! Mike
#217003From: John DraperOct 28, 1995 6:14 PM
Mike, <The North American version of Photogenics supports toaster ..load/save framestore.. quite good!> Thanks, didn't know that. <There's a bit of confusion as to WHO'S selling the NA version.. I bought my first one at a dealer who will remain nameless and bought the CORRECT version for a bit more from the Friendly/Knowledgeable folks at ANTIGRAVITY PRODUCTS in CA.> I got my first version from NorthWest Public Domain, who are no longer in business (sold out to Zipperware). But I got my upgrade from someone else, unfortunately I can't remember who…sigh…. I hear there's another version coming out soon. < Don't get fooled by buying the WRONG version- ask them to GUARANTEE it's the NA v1.25-> I've got version r1.252 v 1.2 (that's what it says when I run version on it). How does one know if it's the UK or the NA version? <I find Photogenics to have lots of promise.. I just ordered the Cybergraphx sw for my Picasso so hope to get even more into it!> I agree. I'd be interested in hearing how you like Cybergraphix, both with Photogenics, and the Picasso in general. Asha @}–,–`–
#217020From: James TopperOct 28, 1995 7:14 PM
> I just ordered the Cybergraphx sw for my Picasso so hope to get even more into it! < Mike, good luck with that Cybergraphx software! I have/had it for my Picasso II equiped 3000, but had more problems with it than it was worth. I ended up going back to my Picasso II software, at least it works well. Jim
#217025From: MICHAEL SMITHOct 28, 1995 8:00 PM
Hmmmm..What version of the Cyber sw were you using? Are you using WB3.1 or 2.x? Thanks for the info! One of the reasons I was excited about getting the sw for the picasso (since the author of the orig. pic. sw is writing this)was that I could take advantage of Photogenics and ImageFX cybergraphx modes. In the meantime, my system crashed BIGTIME, and, not being backed up , I have so many different versions of Picasso monitor files etc, I couldn't get it to work. I would appreciate knowing what the latest versions of the different pieces make up the Picasso sw. Thanks Mike
#217125From: James TopperOct 29, 1995 4:38 PM
> .What version of the Cyber sw were you using? Are you using WB3.1 or 2.x? < Mike, I started with the old version 40.47, then upgraded to 40.49. Then they changed the version numbering system, and I upgraded to 2.0. I had a lot of problems running a 24 bit Photogenics screen, ended up with a triple pointer, which I was told it was a hardware problem with the Picasso II display chip. Let me know how it turns out for you. Jim
#217129From: MICHAEL SMITHOct 29, 1995 5:12 PM
Well now I'm getting kind of scared off! (this is also a $50 deal, and I was under the impression that they were SUPPORTING the Picasso- you think they would for $50, wouldn't ya?) I had a big crash recently and not having a backup, didn't remember which Pic driver worked for me (I'm using a 3000T/040 with 2.x roms, softbooting 3.1wb!) I tried the Picasso bbs which for all I know has been down for years… Where do I get the latest Picasso packet of sw? I know the Emplant board used to have it… any help would be good- thanks Mike
#217211From: Hank DuckmanOct 30, 1995 2:02 PM
Asha; < I haven't installed it on my Picasso board but I've been told you get 24 bit painting with Cyber installed. With just the Picasso software, you do get 256 colors and there is a Picasso "save" (similar to the Opal "save" in AdPro, which just lets you see the pic on an Opalboard) which will show you your work in 24 bit even with just the Picasso software.> Like you, I have Opal board with OpalPaint, and a Picasso II. I can paint in 24 bit using ImageFX, Imagemaster, OpalPaint and TVPaint without Cbergraphics. Why do you need Cybergraphics? Pax Vobiscum! Hank from northern N.J. running A2000 GVP'040@33