Mac/Amiga/PC CD?
37 messages in this thread
I'd like to make a CD-ROM that's PC, Mac and Amiga compatible. It would be
ISO-9660. What's the restrictions on filenames under ISO-9660? Uppercase
only, right, but which chars are illegal? I seem to remember that ISO
filenames can be longer than DOS – like 20 chars instead of 8.3. The Mac
can certainly handle longer filenames. The Amiga is even more flexible –
mixed case, long filenames, like Unix. Many CDTV discs are like this – ISO
but non-compliant because they have mixed-case filenames.
I'd like the top level of the disc to be completely DOS compatible in terms
of file and directory names, but some sub-directories might have non-DOS
filenames.
Will I have any troubles making a disc like this? I've loaded similar
Amiga discs into my PC. It gets very confused about the mixed case, and
can't access those files or files with longer names than 8.3. After all
this, I'd like to send the mastering company an Exabyte 8mm tape with a
'tar' archive image of the disc. Do some of the mastering houses take 8mm
tar tapes?
ISO level 2 and 3 can 30.30 while level 1 is 8.3 on filenames. I don't know
of any driver that supports more and 8.3 I guess since Rock Ridge handles
the long filenames up to 255 characters.
You might download the hi-sierra spec in this forum since it is very close
to ISO-9660. The only parts that are different is directory entires and
volume descriptors. (directory and file entries are the same). The format
gives A and D characters which are valid for different things which I don't
recall off the top of my head.
All upppercase [A-Z] is a good starting point.
Are there any ISO-9660 drivers that don't handle level 3? Do DOS drivers
only handle level 2? I'd think that mine (for a Toshiba 3301 on an
Adaptec) must have, or I wouldn't have been able to see anything on these
Amiga discs that had long filenames.
It maybe possible DOS handles level 2 but it I'm not sure. I think the
MACs handle level 2. Since there is a length byte associated with the
dir/filename record on a CD-ROM it should be fairly easy to handle such
names.
John,
Do you want a mixed mode CD? That is, tracks for each of Mac, PC &
Amiga/Unix? Right now I don't think that's possible, but we may be able to
do it shortly (within months).
Getting a copy of the ISO / High Sierra standards is a good idea to know
exactly what you're dealing with. There is also a new, "9660+" standard in
the works, but it won't be out for awhile. It will allow more flexibility
in file name length/formats, I think.
As for the Exabyte tape, my shop can handle that, and if by 'tar' file you
mean you want a CD made of the data image, I can do that, too. My phone is
205-534-3050/FAX 205-539-9238 if you want to discuss this off-line.
Kathy <<– The One-Off CD Shop MidSouth, Inc.
Do you know if the new "9660+" includes Rock Ridge extensions?
Albert,
Sorry, I'm really ignorant about what is going on in the ISO dealings. Just
from my own guess, however, I would think they would at least consider it.
Kathy
Kathy,
Rock Ridge is just beginning to really catch on. Since there are drivers
for SUNs, IBM RS/6000s, DG Aviions, DEC-3100s (ultrix), and maybe a few
other places too. Oh yes BSD386 version of UNIX (the Dr. Dobbs Journal
programming column on 386 version of BSD unix). A discussion of the later
is currently going on in the UNIX forum.
Albert, Thanks for the info on Rock Ridge. I'd heard about it at CD-ROM
Expo, and it seemed like a rational solution to the artificial, DOS-related
limitations of ISO9660 file names. I may look in on the unix forum.
Kathy
No, I don't think I want mixed mode. (I know what that is.) I downloaded
the Rock Ridge spec but haven't read it yet. If it's just an extra file in
each directory that helps map filenames, I'd think that the Amiga could
handle it. I could probably write a little program to make them. But are
there really any common drivers on the Mac that might understand the Rock
Ridge additions? I might be able to convince some of the Amiga driver
writers to add RR support, too, but that doesn't help the existing user
base.
I think the answer to my original question might be "yes."
As for 'tar', it's an archiving scheme minus the compression. In other
words, it glues and pads files into a single stream, most useful for
archiving a file tree to a block-structured but streaming device like a
tape drive. Which machine in your shop reads the Exabyte tapes? Which
operating system holds the resulting files?
John:
Can you provide, or refer me to, more detailed info about "tar"? This is a
new one to me, and probably an issue that many people have to address.
Thanks
Rich Bowers
Rich,
TAR is a unix tape backup command and tape format which can be made to
allow easy exchange of data between different systems. Since TAR is so
simple and there is free source code on internet it is a nice standard to
work with. Many service bruera (sp?) use them.
Albert:
Thanks for the info. As a non-UNIX type, I miss these things in my life.
IS TAR a commonly used technique for saving files in this environment? Are
there likely to be a lot of UNIX people with archives in this format?
Rich
TAR is probably the only method for tape backup or at least it is always
supported on all software. Even though it started out on UNIX systems, it
is available on probably all other computers. Atari ST, Amiga, IBM PC
.. it simple and it works. Also many it helps when moving data from one
platform to another. Many times one would take a tape drive to one system
and backup all the files and then take to another system to restore it.
This is a great way for getting data for making a CD-ROM.
'tar' is a very common, very popular archive format from the Unix world.
But I have very good 'tar's for the PC and the Amiga, and a reasonable one
for the Mac. The PC and Amiga versions have an interface to tape drives,
so I use it with my Exabyte. I can easily backup either system quickly
using 'tar', and even share the tapes between machines. (I wish I had a
'tar' tape interface for the Mac, that would make my day.)
As I said, 'tar' is dirt-simple, it concats files with a little extra glue
for block padding (like Xmodem does) to help with fixed-block devices and
I/O streams, and extra file attribute info, and markers for new
sub-directories, etc. You can easily 'tar' a directory tree into a single
file. Most commonly on Unix, you'd then 'compress' that 'tar' file. Like
most Unix tools, they separated the function: as compared to PC tools like
PKZip and LHarc, which combined the archiving and compression.
I would have thought that 'tar' was a useful way to send a CD-ROM mastering
house a disk image. How else would it be done?
I could imagine they might want a complete mirror backup of the hard disk
in question, but there's still the question of which software to use to
make that mirror. What piece of software do people use to make these
master tapes? I'd think that it wouldn't be something complicated, after
all, the mastering house has the machine to convert it all to ISO.
I even used 'tar' to "back up" a CD-ROM, as an experiment. With gigabyte
tape drives becoming commonplace, this isn't far-fetched. The tape isn't
exactly random access, but with 'tar' and a fast tape drive (like this
Exabyte 8500) I can still fetch files from it in a matter of minutes.
There is lots of TAR source code floating around too. You might check to
see if the UNIX forum has any.
John:
I agree that this sounds like it ought to be a straightforward task for
CDROM. In a typical scenario, a publisher delivers his content to a
service bureau/mastering house as a group of files which are in the proper
sequence; otherwise stated – a single or multiple data stream. This sounds
very much like the "tar" files. They then run the data through
pre-mastering software which, among other mechanical house-keeping things,
breaks the streams into blocks and adds error correction. This is much
like a filter that creates the "image" file which is pressed into the
master. I will put together a brief list of companies with this facility
you can check out (and I will ask around too).
The next question must be retrieval. If the contents of the "tar" file
maintains the ids and organization of the original disk you archived, you
could simply retrieve the files as if they were on hard disk, possibly.
Otherwise, you might want some indexing and random access capability.
I may be making too much of this, but I find it intriguing. Maybe it's
just because this is new to me, and old hat to others. I'll try to post the
names to you over the weekend.
Rich Bowers
Maybe you've misunderstood something I said… I don't want a mirror image
of a 'tar' file on a CD-ROM. I just want to use a tape with a 'tar'
archive as the medium to send the files to a mastering house.
Or maybe there's some part I've misunderstood. Let's keep it simple. If I
wanted to make an ISO disc for the PC, what would I send to a mastering
house, if they said I could send it to them on an Exabyte tape? Obviously,
I could simply copy the files to a hard disk, and arrange them as I like,
then somehow make a copy of the hard disk on the tape. But what software
would I use to do that? To me, 'tar' looked like a logical choice. Or
maybe some other kind of PC backup software is common. I can't see how the
actual DOS organization is important, in terms of having a mirror image of
a hard disk with a DOS FAT and junk blocks full of zeroes and anything else
I left in the empty sectors on the disk. I'd think the mastering software
only cares about the files themselves, their names and the directory tree.
It throws away the DOS info, so to speak.
John:
As I said, I may well be making a bigger deal of this than necessary, and
your arguments seem logical. I just need to ask someone who knows for
sure.
>>It throws away the DOS info, so to speak.<< This I doubt, if the files
are to be readable under DOS, but whether or not this data is superfluous
is probably not as critical as being sure you have eerything required.
Rich
As for throwing away DOS info: ISO-9660 format is not DOS format. A CD-ROM
has blocks of raw disc data, as a hard disk has raw blocks of information.
ISO-9660 is a filesystem in the same way that MS-DOS has a filesystem.
ISO-9660 is not DOS filesystem. A mastering workstation might take a DOS
filesystem and convert it to an ISO filesystem – at least that's the way I
understand it. So some parts of the DOS filesystem are "thrown away" in the
sense that there's no reason to keep DOS's file allcoation tables, because
the ISO filesystem has its own similar tables. I'm not saying that any bits
of the files themselves are ignored. Everything that isn't in a DOS file
*IS* ignored.
John:
If you need info on CD-mastering, give Jean Ames a call at VRLI. He
and his brother have put together two CD's for us and are working on a
third. He can give you all the info that you need. Tell him I sent you.
grin> His phone number is (805) 781-2256.
Clint <VRLI>
John,
Yes, most mastering houses can take a TAR 8mm, virtually all can
take some format of 8mm.
BTW, I need a good TAR writing program for DOS or OS/2–Which
program do you use, and can you recommend it?
TIA,
Frank
They can take 'tar' format, but is there a restriction on the kind of
filenames they allow? If you saw the start of this thread, I'd like to
allow a few Amiga-like, non-ISO names in certain sub-directories, with
longer than DOS filenames and mixed upper- and lower-case.
As for a PC 'tar', there's a great one in the Unix Forum here on
Compuserve. It uses the ASPI standard for accessing a SCSI adapter. Look
for "ASPITAPE.ZIP" or "ASPITAPE.EXE".
The Amiga sounds like a perfect place to have Rock Ridge extensions since
you can use any filename size up to 255 characters and any character set
too.
John:
I have been told that there are techniques for handling the long file names
and still remain within 9660, even without Rock Ridge if necessary.
In the next day or so (when the systems merges the file into the library)
there will be a file called MFG.TXT in the Production library #8. It
contains a list of all the CDROM manufacturers in North America, as well as
pre-mastering software and a variety of other mfg related contacts. Any of
these folks will be delighted to talk with you, and get you into production
– either mastering or write-once.
Let me know how it goes!
Rich Bowers
Rock Ridge is 100% ISO-9660 complaint!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can have up
to 30.30 names if you like in ISO-9660 in some of the upper levels. But not
very many drivers support those leves of ISO-9660.
John,
I believe non-ISO capabilities are a company to company variable.
You'd have to check with vendors.
Thanks for the tape program suggestion. I'll go check it out.
Frank
Rock Ridge is designed for UNIX file-systems but since Amiga file-system is
very UNIX-like it would be perfect. If your disk has rock ridge it is
still 100% ISO-9660 compatible. That is the best thing about Rock Ridge.
I skimmed the RR spec last night after I logged off. This extra
information is stored somehow within extensions within the ISO format, and
not within files, right? It doesn't look *that* hard to add to an existing
ISO driver, especially on systems that have a wide namespace.
Its simple to add support from the driver point of view. Directory
relocation can be the tricky part. I think parsing a UNIX filesystem and
generating the necessary rock ridge code would be much harder.
The information is stored in each directory record(file record) but it just
gives the fields. This is in the system use area. You then parse the
entire system use area to find all the parts. There is a terminator
function that will stop your parsing. You can even extend the extensions
since it has an area if you run out of 255 character limit.
'The UNIX forum has some discussion of a Rock Ridge driver by BSD386 v0.2
but that is from the Unix perspective not the Amiga perspective so there
might be differences.
I have written ISO-9660 drivers, MAC HFS but not Rock Ridge at least not
yet. I need to get started on it. <grin>
Being an Atari fan first, last and always helps too. <big grin> — Albert
Dayes @ Atari Explorer magazine
I'm an Amiga fan, and I do a lot of Windows work, too – I might have been
an Atari fan, but after getting screwed over first hand by the Tramiels,
there was no chance. (I was part of a company who bought the AMY sound
chip from them, and then they turned around to deny the contract and sued
us til our venture capitalists rolled over and played dead.)
The AMY chip was hot from everything I read about it. Unfornately it was
included in the ST. I jumping into windows myself … somewhat difficult
coming from a UNIX world. <grin>
Sorry you got thrashed like that.
John, I'll have to look up some of the stuff you mentioned offline before
commenting, but as for the explicit hardware questions, any of my computers
(PC, Mac, Amiga) can use the Exabyte tape drive, since it's SCSI. I'm using
the PC version of the OMI formatting s/w to make the CD-Rs, but we can use
it to make an "image" master from any platform and write it to the CD. The
OMI program does the same thing you indicate the 'tar' format does in terms
of pasting files together and also adds the information the CD player needs
to find files on the CD, so I'm not sure if it is necessary to use both of
them (tar + OMI). Does that answer your question? If not, I'll try again.
I'd welcome the chance to try an Amiga disc, just to see what happens. It
ought to be feasible if the file names & directory names are made DOS
compatible, or there is a function in the OMI program that allows us to use
non-9660 compliant file/directory names. You can't call the disc ISO9660 if
you do that, but it might not matter to you.
Kathy
I think what I'm asking to do is no different than most of the "CDTV" discs
out there. I haven't bothered to ask Commodore about this. I've got a
foot-high pile of their docs regarding CDTV development, so the answer
might be in there someplace. 🙂 CDTV is not important to this project,
though. I'd just like to make it as accessible as possible to as wide a
market as possible, and having a non-compliant Amiga sub-directory is part
of that, I suspect.
I recognize your name from somewhere; did you once work for a magazine? Or
still do?
Commodore CATS must have spent a fortune on paper & mailing <G> I also have
a bundle of CDTV developer notes collecting dust.
I've never "worked" for a magazine, although I have contributed articles to
Nautilus for the past three years on an irregular basis. Maybe that's
where you saw my name? Otherwise, I can't think of any national "claim to
fame" unless you count about 10 years on CI$.
Kathy <<– The One-Off CD Shop MidSouth, Inc.
"I'd like to make a CD-ROM that's PC, Mac and Amiga compatible. It would
be ISO-9660. What's the restrictions on filenames under ISO-9660?"
John: I saw this in the CDROM forum and was wondering what kind of CD you
are creating? I'm in the process of creating a multimedia project on CD
myself for the PC market first, and then for the Mac & Amiga markets
later. But I'm fairly new at the game so I need to do a lot of research
yet.