#When to teach GRIPS
17 messages in this thread
Opinions please…
When is the best time to teach grips? Very early on, to beginners, or later,
to more practised users?
I know they were added to make the editing process more Windows-like, and
therefore presumably easier, but I figure with all the options at the prompt
line, and the fact that you still have to do other editing commands the old
way, they are actually more complex than teaching editing commands one by one
the old way, in verb-noun fashion.
Comments…?
Dave…
How about showing grips as a basic editing tool early on… say
after a few editing commands but before the bulk of the more complex
editing commands. Show them erase, move and then contrast that with grip
move and then go through the whole grip shooting match. Mabye leave the
shift-copy temp grid stuff for later.
Roger C@V
Roger – thing is, I see the regular edit commands as the easier to
comprehend… MOVE, for instance, is just MOVE-what-from where-to where,
whereas with grips, it's select-pick a grip-cycle to move-base point
(maybe/maybe not)…
If it weren't for the ones that don't fit PICKFIRST (TRIM, EXTEND, FILLET &
BREAK), it would be a lot easier, but I'd sooner introduce the editing
commands all at once…
Dave
Dave,
To add to my previous message:
I just read Dieter's response on the ACAD forum. He's right: Grips are
used most for block and dimension editing, and I guess that's where I would
teach them, near the end of a Level I course. This means the EDIT commands
would go through first….
Sorry my message got to you so late, I typed and posted it yesterday, but
someone picked up my phone and messed up my cserve connection… happens
occaisionally. I didn't notice until this evening.
Mark K.
Dave,
We've already gone through the argument once before in the college here. We
found ourselves divided into two camps: those who wanted to teach grips
directly (mainly the Architectural group – they thought grips were very
intuitive) and those who wanted to go through the normal Edit command
series first then teach grips (mainly the Mechanical group).
It's an interesting problem. I'd like to ask you something: Do you teach
the LAYER command first, or the DDLMODES first?
I've tried it both ways. The more effective one seemed to be teaching the
Layer command first. Think of it this way (and this is me being old
fashioned): If you learn to drive an Automatic car first, learning a Manual
after that is REAL tough. You just keep forgetting the clutch, the shift,
etc… Try it the other way around. Works much easier.
By showing the class the layer command first as it comes up in some
exercise, the class will quickly absorb the new command and the new concept
of layers. After working with it for a short while, the class will
appreciate the DDLMODES dialogue box that much more. They've learned both
with no problem.
Doing it the other way around makes them avoid the Layer command: why
bother when the DDLMODES dialogue box is so much more tempting?
Back to grips. We are thinking of putting several configurations up on the
PCs: the beginners start without grips and noun-verb, and gradually grow
into it. The more advanced user will have both noun-verb and grips
enabled, and it is up to them to choose what they like. The most
interesting comment was what you touched on in your message: grips has
much more options and may seem more complex to the beginner than the simple
breakdown of the edit commands: move, scale, rotate, mirror, copy..
We held a Release 12 update for the graduating Architectural third year in
August just before they left the college. You should have heard the oohs
and aahs as we went through the features, especially GRIPS and BHATCH.
Mark K.
Mark – I must confess I never even thought of teaching the LAYER command. I'm
trying to use menus whenever I can, and wherever you pick LAYER… from a
menu, you get the dialogue. I think teaching the old LAYER command–at least
to beginners–would be like teaching the PLOT command with CMDDIA turned
off… i.e., not necessary. Not for beginners, anyway…
Am I wrong?
Dave
Dave,
I can't really say you are wrong or right, but remember: you are leaving a
gap in their education… but seeing that you have only two days to do a
beginner's course, no wonder! You have mitigating circumstances.
We teach as much as we can, and we are as COMPLETE as you can imagine.
In our plans at the ATC the beginners level is a full 30 hours or four
days.. double what you have. And they get a taste of everything they need
to start with. The minimum I would teach a beginner's level is 20 hours..
anything lower than that I would consider only an introduction or I would
have to leave out some stuff… and I'm against that kind of compromise.
Back to you: what did you decide with grips?
Mark K.
Hey Mark….
I have to agree with dave on the DDLMODES dialogue. I don't
consider that leaving out the layer command is leaving out something in
their education. DDLMODES is the easiest for the beginner to get used to
because its visual & tactile, showing them other alternatives mostly
confuses. leave the layer command to more seasoned students who need the
speed & don't mind typing.
Let's see do you show students the Change point option of the Change
command or do you show GRIP edits ??? I'd allways had the habit of showing
people this aspect of the change command, now I don't think I'll do it. I
don't think I'll show grips to people all at once, some of the shift copy
temp grids etc etc… can get a bit confusing. but heck cycling through 5
Grip editing options would be really fun & provide editing ability fast to
beg. students.
Roger C@V
Roger:
I believe that the debate caused by R12 among educational issues is
intrinsic in the design of R12 (which I would term… adrift.). I
personally feel that the best approach is to teach the basics because
typing will always be the fastest form of input until voice is improved.
All of our top draftspersons type in their commands and think that the
dialog boxes are of limited use, especially since they don't stay on the
screen… with the possible exception of the plot dialog box.
It seems to me that the key here is that entering the commands will imprint
them in memory much better than a dialog box will, and the subtleties of
the various command options will be ecountered sooner with a more lasting
impression if they are typed in…
For example, learning how to edit an entity is the most important feature
of >editing< and then mastering all of the editing tools available will
come with time.
I have found myself trying to teach AutoCAD, from time to time, based upon
how I think it should be designed rather than what it's interface
capabilities are… which is a bad idea. I have to slap myself around a
little bit and get back to the basics <grin>.
C#
Hey Craig…..
I don't know I try as much as possible to use the menu's & dialogues
this seems to me the most visual way of learning the program. If you use
only keyboard entry I think you would think that Autodesk's efforts to
improve the User interface have been a total waste of time. I think all
the user interface improvements havn't been aimed at the experienced user
but at the novice or occasional user. The experts will type, because it is
the fastest & once you know the command it's definitely more efficient.
R11's pull downs were from the teaching the novice user perspective
a disaster. It was simply too complicated for the new user. I think the
new structure in R12 will be easier on student's. I really like the
dialogues for teaching, I will try to use them as much as possible. Why
belabor the units command when DDunits is there.
Roger C@V
Craig & Roger,
Both of your arguments are valid. Many beginners learn visually, while
others can actually type (and remember commands of all things!) I think a
sound base of the variety of input methods up front provides a "menu" of
choices which the user can pick from. I find early on that my students
gravitate to the entire range of input formats. Typing, screen menus,
pull-downs, and tablet. Of course, some don't have a clue. C'est la vie.
But typing commands and options builds a solid foundation for menu
customizing, scripts, LISP etc. While picking from menus and dialogues can
build a confidence level in others who may be intimidated by the typing.
We must remember that this entire "GUI"/windows/dialogue transmogrification
was borne of a slow blending of the original Macintosh interface and the
linear process of DOS command prompts. Both systems saw the benefits of
the other, hence the movement toward each other. It is the same with what
we present to our students. Why present only one side? Are all of our
students left-brained? God, I hope not. We have a mix. Show 'em the
choices, and let 'em choose.
But of course this all requires an instructor with patience, tolerance, and
a willingness to let go of the reins. We often try to keep a tight grip.
Shoe
Roger,
I just finished two R12 update classes with a wide range of skills, from R9
to R11, and some students just beyond beginners. They were all completely
turned on by grips, and plowed through all of the exercises, exploring
every possible combination of the SHIFT key etc.
I still say that exposure to the whole realm of capabilities is needed, but
the kicker is what to lay on the beginners. I've always liked to do the
most difficult task first, and save the easiest for last. I tend to
introduce my students to the foundation of a process (or command) first,
then show them the easier method later. It seems that they have a much
greater appreciation (and understanding) of the process.
But I think that this process of "what do I teach and when" (in other
words, "what do I hide from them?") will become a moot point the more we
move into a "learn-by-discovery", or problem-solving/teamwork kind of
approach. Then they will decide what they need to learn, when and how.
Guided by the gentle hand of nervous instructors fearful for their jobs.
Shoe
In the last six years of my "instructional" AutoCAD life, I've been using
the Screen Menus, Pop-downs, and the Commnad Prompt to enter commands. When
I present AutoCAD to a class, I mix it up for them to show them the many
different ways to be efficient in AutoCAD (yes….even using the
digitizer….but, far be it from me to bring THAT up again!!!).
The GUI interface of 12 is great for getting folks productive in a hurry.
When I teach these classes, they are aimed at the private/corporate
sector…and you and I both know that the "recession" has brought a brand
new definition to the term Productive. The point is, get the students
"flying" in AutoCAD….then show them the finer intracacies (for Scripts
and Menu customization). Industry wants these folks "doing", as quickly as
possible…I'm finding it quite a challenge to professionally show someone
enough AutoCAD to be productive, and yet try to give them as much
background and detail instruction as possible (e.g. "Why is there an
hourglass on the left side of the screen when I get into the Dynamic option
of the Zoom command????) I'm allotted a spttering of time for explaining
these finite points of AutoCAD…I need to determine the "do's" and
"dont's".
Grips!!! Personally I'd like to see students learn this FIRST,
buuuuuuttttt…there is still too much of a mix of 10, 11, and 12
people…so you need to start with Move, Stretch, Copy, Rotate and
Scale…then get the Grips right after….to show the benefits of "moveing
on up" to the latest release (jeeze…I sound like Wayne now….).
There's been some really good dialogue (no pun intended) here regarding
this subject…just thought I'd pipe in instead of just daily
"watching"….COME ON other folks….Speak up!!!!
Thanks Shoe…..
Hit Return…. Bill Elliott
Dave,
We tend to present students with the theoretical first, then the easy
route. As for grips, in our book we present the standard editing commands,
then in the next chapter, get into grips. But I believe that they should
both be presented, even to beginning students.
I don't believe in holding back information. But then it gets down to
which side of the question do you want to address first. I often prefer
the foundation of a command, such as Layer, then get into how easy it all
is with a dialogue box.
Of course dimensioning is a different thing. Why memorize all the dimvars
when you can much more intuitively pick them from a box?
The beat goes on.
shoe
Shoe – what *is* your book again, and where can I see it? Do bookstores carry
it? (I'm in Canada so don't have access to Walden or your other big chain.)
Dave
Dave,
It is "AutoCAD and its Applications," published by Goodheart-Willcox Co.
Irwin Publishing is the Canadian dealer. I'll send you a copy of the R12
book if you give me your mailing address.
Shoe
Shoe – thanks! Here's my address:
David Byrnes
Box 277 Collins Road
Bowen Island, B.C.
CANADA V0N 1G0