#LensFX and Bones
19 messages in this thread
David:
Sorry if I missed an earlier discussion on this, but I wanted clarification
before making a purchase decision.
1. Is it true that LensFX is locked with a hardware key? Does this keep it from
working on network renders? I am seriously considering staying away from the
product for this reason.
2. Bones Pro is not locked with a hardware key, right?
Thanks,
Jim
Hi Jim,
LenZFX is locked by a hardware key. There are two versions available.
LenZFX – a less expensive single user version for those who do not need
network capabilities – $395
LenZFX Pro – full network rendering without the need for keys on the slave
machines – $795
Bones Pro does not have copy protection. It will sell for $295 until Feb. 1,
1995
After that it goes to it's regular price of $495. We can't offer the $295 price
after January, so get it while it's good. Honestly, it's a steal at $295.
David – Digimation
David,
$295 seems a fair price for Bones Pro based on what I've heard about it, don't
be surprised if sales slow down or dry up after the price goes up to $495, and
please don't whine about it here.
Considering that 3D Studio does not charge extra for the priveledge of using a
network to render on as many non-gui copies of 3DS as you want to install, I
predict your lenZFX Pro program will be a miserable failure even though LenZFX
will probably sell fine. If enough developers like you rig thier IPAS pricing
this way you will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Consistency is SO important, I think Autodesk made a *BIG MISTAKE* in not
requiring through code tricks or licensing agreements, that any IPAS routines
work like 3DS — be Netrender aware and installable at no extra cost, but have
a GUI workable only from the dongled CPU. Very odd when you consider how they
are such sticklers for GUI consistency with 3rd party development of thier own
products.
Bruce N. Goren
<< don't be surprised if sales slow down or dry up after the price goes up to
$495, and please don't whine about it here. >>
Amen.
BILL
Dear Bruce,
Thanks for your comments. I'm glad to hear from you. I've followed your
articles in TV Technology for some time. Here is something that you said on the
forum recently;
>>> $295 seems a fair price for Bones Pro based on what I've heard about it,
don't be surprised if sales slow down or dry up after the price goes up to
$495, and please don't whine about it here. <<<
You'll never hear me whine about anything, especially in an open forum. It
doesn't take a math genius to figure out that you will sell more copies at $295
than $495. It's my guess that Mercedes Benz would sell a lot more sedans at
$30,000 than $50,000 too. However, the real ultimate question is 'is it worth
the price?' (Oh yes, the second ultimate question is 'how much is your time
worth?)
I believe that Bones Pro is worth $495. It totally opens up character animation
to 3D Studio. It makes Inverse Kinematics work with mesh objects without
joints. It's easy to use and powerful. Which brings us to the second ultimate
question… how much is your time worth? Let's take hypothetical situation.
Suppose that Gateway asked you to animate the cow mesh that comes on the 3D
Studio CD ROM. They want the cow to stand on two legs and dance. They want a
thirty second spot. They are willing to pay $5,000. It would take me just about
five hours with Bones Pro. How long would it take you without it? Could you
even do it without Bones Pro? How much would Bones Pro be worth then? We think
that Bones Pro is worth $495. To the character animator it is. To the casual
hobbyist it might not be. I'm not whining to anyone to buy the package. If you
think it's worth it, buy it. If you don't, don't. I can say for myself though,
that if I were bidding a character animation job and I didn't have it – I
wouldn't want to be bidding against someone who did. Maybe some Bones Pro users
can add their two cents about the package. Alan I., Glenn M., Frank D., Gary
Y., any thoughts?
David – Digimation
P.S. Have you actually used Bones Pro – or are you just guessing that it's not
worth $495? I didn't see your name on our Bones Pro customer list.
I think that simply DLing GlennM's Bones Pro sample stuff should completely
answer any questions about the value of the program to a character animator.
I, myself still cannot believe I am smoothly deforming all this mesh with NO
morph targets! There's just never been anything like it for 3DS.
-Alan
Hi Bruce, and Dave
I am both a Lenzfx and Bones Pro user. Two thumbs up for both. They are
no dought the best ipas routines available today and i own almost every package
out there. You try and make the 3ds chevy dance realisticly without it. I can
do it
in about 20 minutes with bones pro. Now Lenzfx paid for itself the day i got
it.
That program is incredable. I had to make a under water city for a game company
that had over a hunderd glowing windows and 10 underwater flares. Without the
glow mask fuction it would have been impossible because of the underwater fog.
Besides i also have an SGI Indigo Extreme2 using alias, Lenzfx flare and
it options and speed blew it away and I paid over $80,000 for my SGI with the
software. I am beginning to regret it.
There is to many people crying about products they have never used, and without
it they just can't do it. So let they cry while i get rich using them.
Frank Delise 3D-animator ,Game designer
>> Besides i also have an SGI Indigo Extreme2 using alias, Lenzfx flare
and it options and speed blew it away and I paid over $80,000 for my SGI with
the software. I am beginning to regret it.
Frank Delise 3D-animator ,Game designer <<
Gotta say I am in the same boat, Frank. That Indigo2 Extreme makes a damn
fine mail server, though. We are anxiously awaiting the arrival of our LenzFx
demo disks, I have heard so many good things about it. Because we use lots of
glowing parts, it will be very nice to attach to an object.
What platform(s) are you developing for? We are a 1st party PSX developer in
Orlando.
-Dan O'Leary (n-Space)
>>hypothetical situation…to animate the cow mesh
As it happens, I can answer that (although it was a galloping cow, to video,
and the project eventually fell by the wayside). It took me about a day to
convert the cow into a set of skinned objects that were acceptable for
animating in a gallop cycle, w/about an hour extra to set up an acceptable
gallop. It was still fairly easy to tell where the legs were attached, however.
And dancing; now there's a horse of a different color.
John Stetzer
JWS
>> It was still fairly easy to tell where the legs were attached… <<
Do you mind elaborating on this scenario a little more? It sounds like you used
skin with BP but also had jointed limbs. To me that kind of defeats the purpose
of BP, but maybe there was no other way around it, in which case why not just
use the mesh cow?
Just curious,
John
I'd _emphatically_ agree that Bones Pro ought to pay for itself on the first
job you use it. Plus, it can enable you to get jobs that were previously WAY
out of reach, since it lets you use IK with skeletal deformations. Beyond the
basic skeletal capability, the fact that it has an axp that eliminates the need
for morph targets is a HUGE advantage.
– G
Hi Jim,
I see from the response to your message in this thread, that more & more
developers/distributors must seem to think that this *is* becoming an SGI-like
platform or something. $800 for a Z-Buffer plug-in !! Unbelievable. That's
incredible motivation to continue working on one's programming skills <g>.
BILL
Hey Bill, Who cares what the price is. If they don't want to sell many let
them price it right out of line. I take a business approach to this and will
only buy the plugin if the client is willing to pay for it. If I find the IPAS
very generic like NDUMP then I budget for it in its ROI value. (I have not
purchased NDUMP yet because most of my work has been rotoscoping and it doesn't
work for me). Otherwise I would have bought it, even though it is expensive,
it would pay for itself quickly with normal rendering.
Unless your filthy rich you just can't afford to have every IPAS made. If
you're in business then I recommend having all the demos on hand for your
clients to see and if they want it from the demo viewing, quote them the price
and if they say yes, you will have it by them paying for it. This is what I do
and I have no trouble with some IPAS purchases while others we just say no to
and use another more cost effective IPAS. Who looses? Not me! The IPAS
programmer does. With no sale due to out of line pricing vs. IPAS value.
Remember the client's perspective here. He is weighing the impact of this
effect as to sales of HIS product and this is an even tougher decision. So,
when he is in doubt he will usually say no.
If the IPAS doesn't sell it will probably come down in price. Face it good
business dictates that when you arn't selling you either improve the product or
lower prices. If the thing is selling like hotcakes you raise the prics. If
sales are flat you keep your prices flat. Marketing and sales 101.
Hi Don,
<< Hey Bill, Who cares what the price is. >>
You're absolutely right, of course….if you need it & can recover a ROI
quickly, by all means – buy it. However, looking at the scenario a bit less
short-sighted, EVEN IF one can easily justify a purchase today…..if a
developer somehow creates/leaves a bad taste wrt inflated pricing,
inconvienient program functionality, disappointing new revisions, etc.,… when
someone else comes along in the future and improves on that taste – the user
will be axious to jump ship. I can recall paying $10k+ for Topas, nearly that
for DGS, and $5k+ for the ATVista to run them on. At the time, I could justify
it but didn't like it, nor did I appreciate the poor evolution of the products.
So, I and (apparently) many others began to develop a lot of negative feelings.
Since they were so reluctant to keep pace with the market trend towards much
greater functionality at a better price, I can only say….where are they now ?
<<Marketing and sales 101.>>
Maybe you should take one of those classes.
I have tried selling IPAS routines at price points ranging from under $100 to
$400. Some with no copy protection, some with software protection, and some
with hardware protection, but you know, you have given me valuable insight into
why 3D Studio plug-ins don't sell well. As an animator YOU should review the
benefits to be gained from a plug-in. How will it save you time, how will it
make your end results look better, how does it complement your creativity.
Then make a purchasing decision based on that. I find it tragic and just a
little amusing that you are forcing your clients to watch IPAS demos, then
depend on their reactions to determine your own purchasing decisions.
Does this mean that before you bought 3D Studio, you brought prospective
clients to your home and forced them to watch you tinker around with a demo of
the program. Then made the proposition to them that if they paid for 3D
Studio, your computer, network, office, video equipment, etc that you would do
one project for them. They would look at you like you'd lost your proverbial
marbles.
There are a few wonderful, talented professionals in the 3D Studio market. And
they are a joy to work with. They realize their own talent and the ability of
the tools that are offered to them. I'm very excited to see the upcoming
Siggraph reel to see what this base of raw talent can produce. Unfortunately
for 3DS developers, there aren't many of these people.
Aaron
Hello Aaron
I thought that a very good idea that went by in this conversation was the
notion of a single lock that could work for 3DS and IPAS routines. I made a
wish and Jonas replied that ( if I understood him correctly ) that this could
be done now with IPAS 4 which enables an inquiry to the lock for a serial
number. It seems to me that the present ever increasing lock solution to
developers very real problems will result in a few years in an untenable
situation. The single lock for everything solution would seem to satisfy both
developers and customers. What do you think?
Ed
Ed,
Thank you for what could perhaps be the first well thought out and maturely
presented reply yet for this thread. 🙂
Yes, in R4 you can find out the 3D Studio serial number. Unfortunately, the
key itself is not serialized (a la SGI). A serialized 3D Studio key that all
plugins could attach to would be ideal. And actually, I and several other
developers are approaching Autodesk with this as well as a few other problems
with the 3DS plug in market. Hopefully, all is not lost!
I agree with all of you that hardware locks are not an optimal solution to this
problem, but until something better comes along they do work nicely. (As is
evidenced by 3DS itself)
Aaron
Good luck on your approach to Autodesk. I hope they will listen.
Ed
>>Does this mean that before you bought 3D Studio, you brought prospective
clients to your home and forced them to watch you tinker around with a demo of
the program.
Now don't be silly! If you would have read all of my post you wouldn't have
made that statement. Remember my example of NDUMP? Some programs, including
IPAS routines are very special and some have application as a productivity
tool. Those that are special like Pannello would require a client's funding
before I would put it in place here. He would be shown a demo of the look in
order to decide. The decision to buy something like Python, on the other hand
is a productivity tool that I bought to enhance the efficiency of the modeling
session and based the decision on it's ROI by the nature of the many times I
could use it as I do scripted animation logos often. Magic was purchased by
one client who brought over a video of a TV show and wanted me to create this
effect. I showed him a demo of the IPAS and he agreed to pay my price which
bought the IPAS.
>>I find it tragic and just a little amusing that you are forcing your clients
to watch IPAS demos, then depend on their reactions to determine your own
purchasing decisions.
Your perception of this process is a bit twisted. I'm sorry if you feel
insulted by my having clients view demos of the routines like Panello, Magic
and others. I would like to have them here for use too but you have to
understand one thing. I'm in this to earn a living. My clients are my bosses
since I own my own business. THEY decide the worth of these special effects to
THEIR projects. Not me. All I can offer as advice to you as a developer is
give me production value that will knock the socks off my clients in an effect
and he will pay the price. If I show him a good demo of the product and he
yawns and says what else do you have? No sale will be made. All I can do as a
post facility is keep current on what effects are available so when he asks I
can show him what it will look like. When I showed my one client the demo of
Magic he said how fast can you get it. If the price was 5 times he might have
said what else do you have. If I had someone else paying for this business
rather than my clients I might be able to afford every trick and effect and
software on the market but the reality is I only buy what is sought after by my
paying customers.
Aaron, I've been on this forum since the intro of 3DSr2 and have offered
several suggestions for IPAS routines. Two of these suggestions were taken
seriously by Schreiber and were subsequently offerd. I immediately bought
both. Why, because I had an immediate requirement for these by my clients.
Greg Pyros knows how I work. I had a customer that required an old movie look
to some video. It was purchased within 4 hours of signing a work order for the
effect. The day before I had no idea I would be buying the Old movie IPAS.
Nobody is forcing you into a career of an IPAS developer. I guess analyzing
the buying public is not one of the more pleasant tasks you must do as a
developer. I feel for you because I hate this part of the job too. But, it
goes with the territory.