#people who need people
23 messages in this thread
Bob
The people meshes I use now are embarrassing! They seem stiff; only useful
for Pinnocio-stlye presentations (most firms do that you know). I've even
selected some nose vertices and done some stretching. For stills I've thought
of just doing the scan thingie out of the pages of GQ, Mademoiselle
and Quarter Horse but I really don't like the look of that and most of what i
do will evetually be animated.
I'd rather use really elegant mesh people if there is such a thing (yes,
I know about Viewpoint<g>). Now I can REALLY appreciate the special modeling
problems of memory debt and the few options available for this kind of task!!
I have found excellent cars but only a few are small enough to use much in
a scene.
I did DL and use a '32 ford coupe that someone had faithfully chopped, dropped
and channelled!!
Ever so cool! I borrowed jumbo tires from the Jag on the WCT cd! My client
loved the job
but just went "hmmm" when he got to the rod but his asst must have been
channelling Big Daddy Roth
cause he got a big grin from it. I was embarrassed for having thought it was
acceptable.
As far as trees go I'm REALLY fixed up thanks to Phil Miller!! Low-rez,
semi-transparent
shadow castin', mighty-morphin' Mesquite trees!! For aerials they look really
nice.
(so good that my dog tried to hose down my tower!!)
I finally got a fix on your location from a recent forum msg…New Jersey!!
for some reason I
placed you first in a scene from Beach Blanket Bingo, then snowbound north of
the border.
My brother-in-law grew up in Parsippany before becomming a Texas Aggie. He's
had an office
here in Dallas since the mid 70's.
Any help w/ these items would be appreciated mucho.Gary
Gary:
Mesh people are not well liked here. For distant scenes the People for People
by Rachel Rosenthal would be a good bet and not a memory hound. For close up
stuff I think compositing photos or using people "cards" is the best way to go.
I am looking to get some better trees so I, too, am looking for sources.
Silicon Garden or Schrieber's Nursery? Others? The technique which Phil
described works very well for most applications except for the tight shots as
he mentioned.
/_____________From your message_____________\\
I finally got a fix on your location from a recent forum msg…New Jersey!!
for some reason I placed you first in a scene from Beach Blanket Bingo, then
snowbound north of the border. My brother-in-law grew up in Parsippany
_______________________________________________ I was born in scenic and lovely
Hoboken, birthplace of Frank Sinatra and baseball. I spend my summers on the
Jersey shore playing beach volleyball and I'll head up to Ted Boardman country
(NH) for skiing in the winters. I did a project in Parsippany a couple of
years back, had a cool atrium which I modelled in 3D of course. Never been to
Dallas although we have an office there now. That's the scoop.
Bob
>>Mesh people are not well liked here.<<
I beg to differ. If you'll read some of the recent threads on Crestline's
Humanoid models here, I think you'll find they are very well liked, indeed!
– Tim Wilson, Principal
Crestline Software
Tim:
Yikes! When I said "mesh people are not well liked here" I meant at my office
and amongst my co-workers. A lot of the human meshes look like robots or
'Davey and Goliath' rejects. I had no idea anyone would misunderstand my
response to apply globally as you have. Sorry for being ambiguous, but I think
you went haywire on comments being exchanged between two architects. Your
humanoid models may be awesome, I'm not really familiar with them. Viewpoint
and Acuris bombard me with flyers, catalogs and the like but I haven't seen
anything from Crestline. Are there any images in the library which you could
point me to for evaluation? Are the models overkill for architectural work or
just right? I wouldn't want the models looking better than the architecture
<G>. What would one figure cost? Do they come clothed?
Bob
Robert,
There is a brief description of Humanoid in Take 5 `3DS Humanoid Models'. The
models are not really designed explicitely for architectural rendering. They
come in High (18,702 polys) and Low (9920 polys) Density versions, which might
be more than you need. They could however be optimized a bit, especially the
heads.
It might also be interesting to try posing them to match a photo of a figure,
and then mapping the figure onto the models. Some users are having pretty good
success mapping faces and wounds onto the models.
If you don't want to wait until I get my sample images uploaded, e-mail me your
physical mailing address and I'll send you my literature. Prices are a no-no on
the forums I'm told, so we'll have to discuss that by e-mail. They kit is very
affordable though.
– Tim
Tim:
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
Some users are having pretty good success mapping faces and wounds onto the
models. __________________________________________________________________
Ouch!
You can send product info to:
Bob Ritger The Hillier Group 500 Alexander Park – CN23 Princeton, New Jersey
08453-0023
Thanks,
Bob
The most current information on HUMANOID and KINEMODLEZ can now be found in the
ANVENA (Animation Vendor A +) Forum in the NEW ANIM. VENDORS Library. These are
motion-ready models designed especially for doing 3D character animation,
effects and simulations in 3D Studio. You can use the keyword CRESTLINE to
search and bring up all the relevant files. There are sample images of the
Humanoid family (Man, Woman, Child & Strongman), morph targets of facial
expressions, and walk and run poses; And text files with detailed information
about Humanoid, and the progress on development of KineModelz.
If you have any further questions about Humanoid or KineModelz, please feel
free to post them as Forum Messages in the ANVENA/NEW ANIM. VENDORS section.
This will be Crestline Software's temporary home until our *own* section is set
up for support in ANVENA.
– Tim Wilson, Principal
Crestline Software
CIS Mail: 76432,1122
Tim:
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
The most current information on HUMANOID and KINEMODLEZ can now be found in
the ANVENA (Animation Vendor A +) Forum in the NEW ANIM. VENDORS Library.
__________________________________________________________________
I'll check this out, thanks for the info.
Bob
Gary,
If you're looking for human models to use in 3D Studio, my company makes the
best ones around, IMHO. For more information, please see the `3DS Humanoid
Models' message to you in the TAKE 5 Section.
– Tim Wilson, Principal
Crestline Software
Tim,
I must say I admire your work and believe you have some of the nicest human
models I've seen: more accurate and appealing than Tom Knight's (Imagination
Works) and more usable than Steve Sherer's (Schreiber Imagine set). Personally,
I'll always custom build my own, mainly because I feel let down every time I
see an animation and say: "oh, they used Mannequin's 50pman (or Viewpoint's
freebie man, or Schreiber's man, or …..), for that scene". Call me a snob,
but I like original work and I think it differentiates your work from "the
pack".
Did you ever see the 3ds Siggraph '94 demo reel? I was wondering if you saw my
animation of "Spawn" (Spiderman like character), and "Helmut the Gladiator"
which followed. They're both early in the character animation section of the
tape. I'd be interested in your comments on them …. be honest, if you think
they're crap, I can take it <G>.
Martin
>>Personally, I'll always custom build my own, mainly because I feel let down
every time I see an animation and say: "oh, they used Mannequin's 50pman (or
Viewpoint's freebie man, or Schreiber's man, or …..), for that scene". Call
me a snob, but I like original work and I think it differentiates your work
from "the pack".<<
Martin,
You didn't think I was going to let *that* slip by, did you? <g>. I think it's
great that you have the ability to do your own original work, but not everyone
has the time, desire or ability to do that. Nice humans ain't exactly easy ya'
know. (I guess you probably heard that one coming. <g>)
3D jobs come in all shapes and sizes. Custom work will be appropriate for some,
and off-the-rack models (especially good ones like Humanoid) will be
appropriate for others. I think there is room for both types of specialization.
Although my approach may be different than yours, it makes me no less a
craftsman. I am in this to advance the medium just as you are. And it would
upset me if the inferior quality of many other `ready-to-use' (and I use that
term *very* loosely here) models prejudiced people against giving *mine* a fair
shot.
But more to the point,… not all renderings and animation done with Humanoid
need look the same. Many artists use Humanoid as a `jumping-off' point to other
more interesting things. If you haven't yet looked at some of GreG Tsadilas's
work, you should. They're an excellent example of this. See my message in Take
5 for directions to his files.
Even so, you'll get no argument from me on the importance of good modeling
skills. I think they are the most essential part of doing good 3D work. And
along these lines, I've got some new things coming down the pike that will
absolutely blow your mind.
>> I was wondering if you saw my animation of "Spawn" (Spiderman like
character), and "Helmut the Gladiator"<<
I don't think so, but I believe a friend has the tape. Next time I run across
it, I'll certainly give it a close look. (As a developer, you know I have to
say stuff like that. <g>)
Seriously though,… I'll definitely give it a look see.
And BTW, thanks for giving me an opportunity to let folks know how I feel about
this stuff. <g>
-@-@-
>
Tim
Tim,
I knew you were going to have to stick up for the practice of buying
"off-the-shelf" meshes <g>. I've taken a different approach and sold my
technique (very cheaply) to the masses, so that not only do they have a
complete superhero mesh, they also have the deform/fit shapes and
cross-sections necessary to build their own.
>> Many artists use Humanoid as a `jumping-off' point to other more interesting
things. If you haven't yet looked at some of GreG Tsadilas's work, you
should.<<
I took a look at some of his work as soon as you mentioned it, and while it is
very impressive, I still pegged it as having "Humanoid" by Crestline origins
<g>.
I'm not knocking your work, I think it's excellent but I think people should
just try harder to differentiate their work.
>> I took a look at some of his work as soon as you mentioned it, and while it
is very impressive, I still pegged it as having "Humanoid" by Crestline origins
<g>.<<
OK, are you now going to tell me that when you watch Babylon 5 and see a figure
in a space suit, or seaQuest DSV and see an underwater diver, that you've
recognized their Humanoid origins, as well?<g> Had I not pointed you toward
GT's work, I doubt you would have realized that some of his more outlandish
characters were partially derived from Humanoid.
Humanoid not only provides meshes for people to work with and reshape for their
own needs, it also provides a more general structure to use as a guideline for
a variety of other human-oriented applications.
Furthermore, I doubt that the general public, or 3D clients have seen so much
of Humanoid that they've reached the point of saturation like you apparently
have. As an insider and 3D artist yourself, I think you might be overly
sensitive to this issue. I imagine that most users of Humanoid are simply glad
they have an affordable way of injecting the human element into their work,
without having to develop the skills of some computer-based Michelangelo. If
someone has the skill to create all the models they need, great… more power
to them. I'd love to see their work. But I don't see any benefit in demeaning
users who don't have these skills yet, or depriving them of the enjoyment of
working with nice models like mine.
Also in my software, I've worked very hard to avoid pigeon-holing users into
working with the models as is. They are completely free to alter the geometry
to suit their needs, and I've provided some basic instructions to guide them in
this. And I went to a lot of trouble to make the meshes in all the figures
compatible, so that new figures could be interpolated out of the base models
using morphing. Yes, these things are somewhat limited, but they were the best
I could manage at the time. In addition, Humanoid is not the last word from
Crestline on the subject of human anatomy. I hope to expand the flexibilty of
future sets to allow users to create different characters or morphologies. But
this stuff takes time to do well.
I think what you are really objecting to is the notion that buying ready-mades
is an easy *fix* for some people, and it might discourage them from trying to
develop their own unique modeling skills. If this were really a problem, I'd be
as rich as some Crack dealers now, and everyone would be buying up my software
right and left. But that's not the case at all. Most of my users are thoughtful
people who've explored and exhausted their other options, and have fallen back
on my work to get them through a tough spot, or they wanted to examine my work
for its instructive qualities, or use it as a stop-gap till their own modeling
skills have developed more. I don't think there's any shame in this. And I
resent the implications you are making along these lines.
>>Personally, I'll always custom build my own, mainly because I feel let down
every time I see an animation and say: "oh, they used Mannequin's 50pman (or
Viewpoint's freebie man, or Schreiber's man, or …..), for that scene". Call
me a snob, but I like original work and I think it differentiates your work
from "the pack".<< >> I think people should just try harder to differentiate
their work. <<
I agree with you in the few instances when people overtly misrepresent their
work in contests or exhibitions as `original art'. And I think in these cases,
people should make an effort to use as much original material as possible, or
at least compose the elements in their work in some original fashion. *I* get
tired of seeing the same models used over and over in such things. And I think
sometimes artists who create entirely original work do not get the proper
distinction they deserve. But these are issues of `art for art's sake'.
You obviously have a lot of emotional investment in the discipline of original
modeling. But I don't think you should hold this same standard up for *all* 3D
users. Modeling does not have to be an epiphany for everyone. For many, it's
just a tool to get the job done. Many folks are just trying to make a decent
living with 3D, and I don't think its going to bring the medium down for them
to use ready-made's in some of their work. If you are making `very cheap' (your
words, not mine <g>) models for people to use as well, I think it's a bit
hypocritical for you to be making remarks, like the ones above, so flippantly.
But listen… I don't want to get into a blood bath over this issue. Live and
let live, I always say (well not really,… but it applies here in any case
<g>). And I agree with some of what you are saying. I just wish you wouldn't
offer knee-jerk reactions without putting them into some perspective for others
who may not have the same skills as you do.
My original remarks about Humanoid were intended primarily for Robert Ritger
and others like him, who were obviously frustrated about the human models
available. I was not attempting to make a wash over the whole 3D community, to
insidiuosly coerce them into buying my models. By the standard of originality
you've invoked, we'd have to say that a 3D user's work was not truly original
unless they *programmed* the 3D rendering software themselves. In fact, why use
3D software all? Wouldn't it be more `pure' for you to be using pencil and
paper, or brushes and oils?
Models can be a useful tool just like 3D rendering software is.
– Tim
Tim,
gosh, did I hit a raw nerve? You seem to have become very defensive. I was
hoping we could have an interesting discourse about modelling. Oh well….
my point was to try and encourage people to strive for a more custom look, at
least in the games/entertainment industry. If that means taking an
"off-the-shelf" mesh (like yours) and tweaking it, then that's a perfectly
valid approach.
FWIW, I got payed a small, one-time fee for a chapter in a book (3d Studio:
Special Effects). I did a tutorial which explains how to make a human model –
my intent being to encourage people to make their own with the technique and
templates I supplied. I make no royalties of any kind, but would be happy to
see people come up with original work from those templates. If this sounds a
bit altruistic, then so be it.
regards,
Martin
>>did I hit a raw nerve?<<
Apparently. I apologize if I read more into your comments than you intended. I
come from a Fine Art background, and some of your remarks smacked of the
high-brow talk I used to hear a lot, that really turned my stomach. I don't
like it when people try to prescribe to others what's creative and what's
not,… especially people in positions of authority, or some social standing.
But at least you know how I feel now, whether or not it related to what you
were saying.
>>I was hoping we could have an interesting discourse about modelling<<
I think this is very interesting. As far as I'm concerned, no harm done. If
you're not too bent out of shape, I'm happy to go on from here. And BTW, I
commend your altruism. I think all artists who've reached a measure of success
owe a debt to newcomers. I wish more people had that attitude, rather than
getting caught up in the privacy of their own pursuits.
-Tim (slightly embarassed)
Tim,
>> I come from a Fine Art background, and some of your remarks smacked of the
high-brow talk I used to hear a lot, that really turned my stomach <<
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound that way. I've heard it too … from traditional
artists and cartoonists who don't see any good in any 3d work. However, I
figure if I can impress these guys then I'll be doing well.
I do a fair amount of tutoring/mentoring these days, since I'm pretty active in
the local 3d scene (LA/OC), and also at my company (Virgin) where I guess I'm
the most experienced (but not necessarily best) 3d Studio artist. I'm not
terribly critical and snobbish, but I do emphasize that people experiment with
modelling and materials to create an interesting look. Yes, I push them to push
themselves. Enough tweaking and many "off-the-shelf" models and materials will
look quite original. I do this myself somewhat, but for the most part I
challenge myself to build things that I didn't think I had the talent to do. I
still don't think I have much talent, but I persevere. I didn't think I could
ever do a human, but I forced myself to try something that I was a little
daunted by. Now I'm building heads of recognizable infamous characters from
photos – another daunting prospect which I almost fled from. I guess I'm doing
OK, since the clients are very happy.
Technique-wise, I generally use the skin IPAS. I find it the most flexible way
of working. In fact, I'm a little obsessed with it <g>. 3ds lacks a few
features to help make it a more streamlined process (working with shaded views
or ability to see spline surfaces), but the results can be impressive. You have
to do a billion test renders, but fortunately it's fast.
Well, hopefully we can be friends now 🙂
>>Well, hopefully we can be friends now 🙂 <<
Ditto.
I am not familiar with the skin routine. My personal preference for modeling
right now is Hash's Animation Master. It has the most free-form splines, I've
found anywhere for an affordable price. This choice was after examining several
different Amiga, and PC-based programs (my main platform for development now is
a P90). I work from meticulous drawings with a very CAD-like approach, and use
grids to match up the drawings to the 3D modeling interface. AM's splines allow
me to follow the contours of muscles, facial features, etc. so I can actually
build these structures into my geometry, *without* using regular
cross-sections!
So far, the results are awesome to behold. I'm not boasting about my own
ability, either. I'm as amazed as anyone at how good the stuff comes out. But I
*do* have to perform some special acrobatic tricks to convert the files into
nice polygonal geometry.
This is not, however, the approach I used to create Humanoid. For that I used
Imagine, with a method similar to 3DS Lofter, and then did rigorous point
editing. It is not the sort of experience I would wish to repeat.
-@-@-
>
Tim
Tim,
your human engineering approach sounds very meticulous and probably the right
way to do it. My approach is a little less precise because I'm often working
from photographs, mainly because the people I'm modeling are dead or
uncooperative or both <g>.
I've also heard very good things about the Animation Master modeller – although
I've stuck with 3d Studio, other than a short period of using Softimage 2.61
which was darned good for spliney stuff.
Hello Tim
<But I *do* have to perform some special acrobatic tricks to convert the files
into nice polygonal geometry.>
I do some of my modeling in the sculpture module of Playmation. Can you
elaborate on the above? If you feel its a trade secret Ill understand.
Ed
Tim could be having the new on Compuserve nerves. You know every letter seems
to be a attack
on my work ect. It takes a three weeks or more to get your skin thick.
I have learned a lot over the years from Tim and know we will all will benefit
from his in depth skills on
3d rendering and models.
I feel that you guys are making some good points all around. for example I know
if I see that Viewpoint man in
another game I will scream! <g>
BTW how are the head models turning out?
Brandon
Brandon,
yeah, you have to develop the ability to "under react" on CI$ otherwise it's
too easy to take offense at fairly innocent stuff.
>> I have learned a lot over the years from Tim and know we will all will
benefit from his in depth skills on 3d rendering and models <<
well, I admire Tim's work a great deal. My point was to get others to stretch
themselves a bit more and not settle for mediocrity.
>> BTW how are the head models turning out? <<
really well. Everybody's been really pleased, including myself. I was
pleasantly surprised that I could mold skin based heads into recognizable
characters with a good deal of tweaking. I'd like to upload some samples but
may have to wait until the film's released since I'm under heavy
Non-Disclosure. I may do one of my own heads in my free time (what's that?) to
illustrate the work.
Brandon,
Thanks for the words of encouragement, Bro. How many downloads are you up to
now on that image? And what was it called again? <g>
– Tim
Well when I won CIS graphics of the month I had no idea the amount of down
loads.
We are up to 740 down loads so far, and the mag has only been out for a week or
so.
Autodesk just got some free promotion <G>
File name is POOL.GIF
-Brandon