#OS/2 better than DOS
32 messages in this thread
I had an opportunity to do some 3DS rendering comparisons between DOS and OS/2
Warp yesterday, but my experience confirmed my suspiscions…DOS isn't worth my
trouble! Here's why:
I just got a brand-new pentium-66 machine, 16M RAM, S3 864 video, 540M IDE hard
drive. It had DOS 6 on it, and I was going to install OS/2 Warp. Since I've
never had a machine that I could render with 3DS under DOS (I always use HPFS),
I used this opportunity to compare. I installed 3DSR3 from scratch under DOS
and brought up 3DS. My intention was to render a couple of samples under DOS,
then load OS/2 and do the same to compare. However, I spent 4 hours tweaking
the system, trying to get 3DS to render without hanging. I tried NO HIMEM,
HIMEM only, HIMEM+EMM386 (with various switches), and I could never get a
rendering to complete. I thought the hardware might be flakey, so I installed
OS/2 (heck, if OS/2 likes the hardware, ANYTHING should!). The installation
went off perfectly, 3DSR3 ran fine (I didn't even try tuning for best
performance), and I could not duplicate the hangs. For comparison, I rendered
all frames of CHOPPER.3DS from the camera view, 640×480 FLIC using low palette.
Render time was 13:15. The first frame took 20 seconds, the rest averaged 19
seconds. Under DOS on this machine, I never got it to render completely before
it locked up, but each frame took the same time, or 1 second faster.
I did notice 3DS loads a bit slower under OS/2, but after the rendering
experiment, I'm losing < 5% in performance by using OS/2. However, if today is
an example, I would have gained 100% in productivity. I also gain the ability
to do other things while I render, and even run 2 copies of 3DS on this machine
to do background rendering while I model. If Autodesk would let The Yost Group
work on an OS/2 version, we'd probably get BETTER performance than even plain
DOS, and with multi-threading capabilities, 3DS could expand to new limits. As
for DOS, stick a fork in it, DOS IS DONE!
If anyone wants to suggest other ways to get my system running under DOS (I
haven't wiped it out…yet), I'll be happy to try to compare performance.
— Doug Azzarito
Give me an OS/2 version that I can network AND use Multiprocessing and we will
see 3dstudio be competitive with the next version of Lightwave, due out in
December….ir will be available for Windows, OS/2 and NT (if I can believe my
sources) all in the same box, for less than 1/3rd of the Price of 3dStudio..
Unless our sources are the same, I believe I can vouch for that.
Lightwave/Newtek is very interested into tapping to the PC market, I think they
are capable of giving a good run. (Especially for a third the price with all
those modeling features like Metaform!)
> Give me an OS/2 version that I can network AND use Multiprocessing
I don't understand – which of those can't you do with the current OS/2? I am
running about 15 processes right now with OS/2, and I am networked. If you
have 2 machines connected via Ethernet, check out LANTastic for OS/2. It will
let you talk to DOS LANTastic clients, Novell servers and IBM LAN Mangler
servers.
— Doug Azzarito
15 processors in how many machines?
I want to hear more. Especially if its more than 2 processors/machine.
I assume you like it. Are ther any disadvantages?
> 15 processors in how many machines?
No, I said "PROCESSES" not "PROCESSORS." I don't rate SMP hardware,
so I do this all on a wimpy 486/50. As for OS/2 SMP, it scales
nicely from 2-8 processors, and then starts to level off.
>>>Give me an OS/2 version that I can network AND use Multiprocessing
and we will see 3dstudio be competitive with the next version of
Lightwave, due out in December….ir will be available for Windows,
OS/2 and NT (if I can believe my sources) all in the same box, for
less than 1/3rd of the Price of 3dStudio..<<<
Lightwave will be serious competition to 3DS. Truespace, Imagine and
Topas can't touch 3DS, Lightwave is doing well in production
environment just like 3DS. I don't think there is an OS/2 version of
Lightwave coming, just Win,NT,SGI last I heard. Some people around
hear say Lightwave has a plastic look to it's rendering, I think they
are wrong. It depends on the user, just like it does for 3DS.
I'm frustrated with the responses from Adesk about platforms with
faster CPU's. They seem dedicated to serving ONLY the PC Intel/DOS
market.
REAL 3d and Lightwave will seem to have an open market to expand
their user base to accommodate those of us frustrated with Intel's
glaring CPU limitations.
Having been a dedicated 3DStudio user from R1, day 1, I find it
difficult to deal with the idea of changing software, but I am
seriously considering it.
Sorry to jump in like this, but do you know much about Real3D? I saw a
feature list and a price of $129(?,!) or so, is this right? Have you
used it or seen any output?
I saw it used at SIGGRAPH in '93 and it was running on a DEC Alpha.
(And running mighty fast I might add). Output looked good,but I don't
know anyone using it. I'll keep in contact if I fine anyone..
>>I'm frustrated with the responses from Adesk about platforms with faster
>>CPU's. They seem dedicated to serving ONLY the PC Intel/DOS market.
Well Michael, that IS in fact why 3DS was created — to provide a low-cost path
for people to create workstation-quality animations on a widely available
platform. So that it can be used by both the Johnny Lunchpail w/ Speilbergian
visions in his basement and by the broadcast professional. This seems to be
YG's core commitment. Now, sure, if there are ways that they can open 3DS up
to expand its versatility beyond this WITHOUT compromising the core philosophy,
then I think they will. You can read about the YG mission in an article Gary
wrote for 3D Artist (issue #16).
You might as well complain that PC-based machines won't allow you to install
Mac adapter-boards, because PC-vendors only want to support the PC market.
Well, yeah, because the market they want to support is the one they picked to
work in.
Dave
Well put, Dave.
– G
Go get 'em Dave!
(BTW, How was the Mr. G. weekend? How's the new box?)
Many of the new Windows-based 3D programs use Win32s, which is a collection of
32-bit routines that make it easy to move 32-bit applications to straight
Windows 3.x or Windows NT. Win32s is a subset of Windows NT, in effect. I've
heard that OS/2 Warp can run any Win32s program but does not contain the
Windows NT superset functions, so you'll be able to run LightWave, trueSpace,
Soft F/X, etc. under OS/2 Warp, too.
I saw on one of the internet groups that it depends on the build version of
Win32s on whether os/2 will run it. The earlier builds it would run, the later
builds not. Imagine that. Anyhow, check it out (the Win32s programs) before
you buy it! LAM
> If Autodesk would let The Yost Group work on an OS/2 version . . . <
. . . companies like DPS would write OS/2 drivers for their products
and that would solve most device support problems.
. . . Ana could run her Power PC, I could run a dual pentium, and
others could run their Alpha and we'd all be happily running 3DS!
. . . we could all run WinCIM in an adjacent window to try the new
ideas typed by fellow animators, follow step-by-step support info
right off the screen, or just visit John's Joint.
. . . I would pay for the upgrade a six months before it was
avialable.
Mr. MAP,
I was going to post this under the title: "What I would do to change the world"
But I decided not to encourage the riff-raff.
Regarding: > If Autodesk would let The Yost Group work on an OS/2 version …<
I think we should clone the Yost Group. I have my guys working on an
IPAS that would do exactly that. Ya know, if you have one too many
Time Warps at John's Joint, you'll see more than one Yost …. but
you won't see any performance increase. Maybe if we digitized the
whole group and put them on dual processors? Ah, well.. It's just
another GLiNT in the eyes of a dreamer.
BTW Next time you stop into John's Joint, leave some feedback.
We're presently gathering suggestions for our Whine List. A dry,
white from Foustian Farms is current favorite for House Whine. The
Kiwi and Mead from our own Gibson Vineyards in California will be
offered as Aperitifs or Just Desserts. Your input is always welcome.
Kevin Gibson
Animation Nation <tm> -= another card from Gibson Greetings =-
( I think it's the Joker! )
Foustian house whine? This year, all I made from my grapes was jam.
Please do not give people the impression that the "John" in "John's Joint" has
*anything* to do with me. I did not lend my name to this enterprise.
<<< Foustian house whine? This year, all I made from my grapes was jam. >>>
You definitely be jammin' my brother mon. Anyway, mon, it was just a dig,
ya know. We be foolin' wit' you mon. Ha Ha Ha Have an uncola nut. Here.
You still be favorite for "house whine" mon.
<<< Please do not give people the impression that the >>>
<<< "John" in "John's Joint" has *anything* to do with me. >>>
Sorry, mon. I don't know who been writing da grafitti on da walls in dere.
But dey sign da name "John." Maybe it be someone else name "John," mon.
Excuse me. Bob.. Get your jammin' self back in the kitchen please.
And find someone to clean the walls in the john.
I want all of that grafitti erased. Now, please. Thanks.
Sorry 'bout that, Mr. Foust. Bob's just a goof. Ignore him.
I do understand your concern. I know you did not lend your name
to our establishment, even though at one time I had hoped you would
be part of the merriment. Heck, we even created a drink in your honor.
Good thing we didn't name the place "Foust's House" Hunh?
I didn't like that name anyway.
However, in response to your concerns, I will issue a disclaimer
within 24 hours notifying our patrons that you are not affiliated
with "John's Joint." Although to be quite honest, I think few people
are under the impression you have anything to do with our rec room.
You've never showed your face there, and the levity exhibited in our
establishment is not usually associated with your name. But you are
more than welcome to use the john in "John's Joint" anytime.
Stop by and have a byte too. I'll treat.
-= What's in a name???? =-
!^NavFont01FJAMARAMA2MON94
> I think we should clone the Yost Group.
I have my guys working on an IPAS that would do exactly that. <
<ROFL>
Great! How much does it cost? <BG>
Thanks for Whine offer, but I'm really trying to kick the habit. BTW, John's
Joint is a nice place, where did you get your ideas for the decor?
— James — MAP —
Actually, Autodesk would need to recompile 3DS/Win for each platform, which
means the software quality assurance department would need to triple in size.
After all, they'd need to test each ported version of 3DS. Even a "simple"
port that meant that both DOS and WinNT versions would be available means a lot
of extra testing before the products ship.
> Autodesk would need to recompile 3DS/Win for each platform <
Yes, I probably oversimplified the case. I am just a customer pushing for what
I want. I think that feedback is essential in product development, and my
personal feedback is that an OS/2 version would be very useful. How Autodesk
accomplishes their goals is none of my business.
BTW, have you noticed the number of OS/2 related posts lately? OS/2 is really
catching on among us graphics types. Granted, many posts are from people
needing assistance with getting things running, but isn't that the case
whenever progress is made? It just tells me that OS/2 is happening now.
Does Syndesis use OS/2?
— James — MAP —
Obviously, Autodesk is a big company and they need to think things through. I'm
sure they've examined the issues relating to an executable for 3DS that might
run just fine on OS/2. Unless they explicitly make calls to Windows NT
functions, and stick to straight Windows and Win32
functions, if they make a Windows version of 3DS, then it will work under OS/2,
right?
Yes, a generic Windows verion of 3DS would run under OS/2, but it would have no
more of an advantage than the existing DOS verions which run under OS/2. If,
however, 3DS were coded in native OS/2, it could take advantage of not only
multi-tasking, but also of mutli-threading.
If 3DS had multi-threading, it could start several processes that would execute
in parallel. For example, upon selecting "Render Last", 3DS would dump all of
the current scene data into a separate thread. This process would execute in
parallel with the core 3DS. What the user would see is a brief tick-tock
cursor while 3DS dumps the data into a new thread. Then the user would get the
pointer back and could immediately resume editing. Meanwhile, the "Render
Last" thread is happily plugging away in the background. When it is finished,
a notice box would pop up on the screen telling the user it is ready to be
viewed.
In essence, the user could work without the interruption of waiting for an
image or animation to get done. In fact, the user could submit several
test-renders having each running in parallel.
In a sense, this can be done now. If a user sets up two sessions of 3DS under
OS/2, one as an editor and one as a slave, the user can send test-renders or
final-renders to the slave and then continue working in the editor. However,
multi-threading is still more efficient. Currently, one must load two entire
DOS sessions under OS/2. Thus 3DS is loaded twice into memory (which is
already a desperate realistate). With multithreading, the core code of 3DS is
only loaded once. From there, each thread spawned from the core code can
reference the core for instructions. No doubleing-up of code happens. Far
more effecient.
If you are still reading this long speech, I would be amazed!
— James — MAP —
For some reason, this reminds me of the Aimga users who hoped to run more than
one copy of their favorite 3D program at a time. (I realize that's different
than multi-threading in a technical sense.) They try it, don't like the
performance degradation, and go back to running one copy per computer. And the
Amiga was pretty good at load balancing, and much better at handling interrupts
like mouse movement.
Well, my personal version of logic dictates the following:
1) People are currently running two whole DOS sessions of 3DS. (One as slave,
one as editor.)
2) One Multi-threaded app is (in theorey) more effecient than two DOS
sessions.
3) People who already use two DOS sessions would enjoy the increase in
performance given by a multi-threaded app and, thus, would prefer a native
OS/2, multi-threaded version of 3D Studio! 🙂
— James — MAP —
OK, now define "people" in terms of numbers of today's customers. And I have it
on personal authority from Bill Gates that you can't implement a multitasking
OS in less than four megs of memory, and that "people" don't really need
multitasking anyways. 🙂
I wish I knew the number of people using multi-tasking OSs. More, I wish I
knew the rate of increase or decrease in that number.
Personal authority from who? Bill Gates? Do you mean good ol' Billy Boy
Gates? Did you ever notice the address of Microsoft:
One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think that says it all. That "one way" is good ol' Billy's way, like it or
not. Frankly, I think multitasking is a serious productivity tool. I use it
out of necessity. Have Billy give me a call and I'll 'splain it to 'im. 🙂
— James — MAP —
> I have it on personal authority from Bill Gates that you can't
> implement a multitasking OS in less than four megs of memory, and
> that "people" don't really need multitasking anyways
Yea, and he's the same guy who said "OS/2 is destined to become the most
important Operating System, if not program of all time." It looks like he was
right!
People don't need multitasking, but computers do. I am writing a message right
now, and it gets my full attention. I'm also rendering a huge animation, which
doesn't need my attention. It's nice to be able to do them both without
another box on my desk.
— Doug Azzarito
Yes, he's the same guy that IBM paid to help write OS/2, then wrote WinNT with
the experience gained there, and he's the same one who helped CompuServe
re-write their software for PCs, and then turned around to start "Marvel."
I'm not convinced that background rendering is an optimal way to use a 3D
program. I know it's possible, I know load balancing can help, but there's a
lot of strikes against it, too. Exactly how much slow-down is acceptable when
you're editing? When is it OK for a rendering task to take an indefinite amount
of time? On one hand, people pay extra for Liquid Speed. On the other, they
run 3DS under OS/2.
Doug, Im running os/2 warp and I love it. Ill never go back to windows and
dos. But I cant get my slave copy of 3ds to render in the background. I have
a 486 dx50 with 20 meg ram 1 gig hard drive and a ati mach32 vlb display card.
Please help
Thanks
Gregg Daly