#DTP recommendation?
38 messages in this thread
I'd like recommendations for a desktop publishing program, please. Some
possibly relevant information:
…It will be used primaily for short documents, mostly 1 page, nothing
longer than 16 pages.
…It needs to be able to work on both an Amiga 500 and a 3000 (preferably
with WB 2.0 on the latter). The 500 has 1 meg RAM and a hard drive, the
3000 has 3 megs RAM and a hard drive.
…I'd prefer that it be functional both in 640 x 200 and 640 x 400
resolutions, though the latter is more important.
…I prefer a more "Mac-like" interface if possible. (I'm assuming that
some are more Mac-like in their interface than others.)
…I'd like it to be able to drive a Postscript printer; but also
non-Postscript laser (or Deskjet) printers. I'd like scalable fonts even on
those non-Postscript printers.
Do any of the dtp programs fill all these criteria? If not, what
compromises are required for different choices? Thanks, ===Scott
Scott, if you only need black and white, I think PageSetterII will fill
your need, but if you need color, you have about three or four choices:
CityDesk from MicroSearch; Professional Page from Gold Disk; Pagestream
from Soft Logik; and Saxon, but I forget the publisher. They vary in price
– PageSetterII being >$100 usually, and some of the others ranging from
there upwards to about $500. Others here can tell you more about them, but
this will give you a start, at least.
Betty
Betty –
To the best of my knowledge – PageSetterII – DOES NOT – do Postscript.
At least it does not mention the Postscript output on the package, I
have never openned one to run the program, so I don't know fer sure.
IMHO – either ProPage or PageStream – would be the best choices for
Scott. Saxon is to high end for his needs – and probably won't work well
on the 1meg 500.
– Roy Pahnke –
Casper, Wyomin'
Roy,
Right — PageSetter II does not do Postscript — however, it does do HP's
page description language (what's that called? HP LJII ?)
-sja
Steve,
HP's page description language is called PCL. I think that the newest PCL
(on LJ III) includes HPGL, which is used in their plotters.
Malcolm
Scott, it sounds like PageStream can handle the job well. PageStream
lists for $175 and fills all of your questions. Upgrades, except over major
releases such as the recent one where they added Compugraphic Fonts, are
free.
— Ethan
Scott:
There are 2 DTP programs that will do what you want. They are
Professional Page and PageStream. Both programs are at their version 2.0
stage although ProPage hasn't shipped their 2.0 yet. It seems to me that
both programs are very capable, however it seems that generally people use
either one or the other and develop a preference for 1 or the other. I
personally like and use Professional Page although I also own PageStream, I
could never seem to get used to it, so I stick with ProPage. If it means
anything to you ProPage 2.0 will include Pantone colors if you're planning
on doing any color work. ProPage also does color separations better than
PageStream I believe (although I might be wrong).
I guess what I'm really trying to say is that it's all a matter of
personal preference, and so if possible you should try and go to your local
dealer and try both before you buy 1 of them (hopefully your dealer will
have both in stock, and can demo them both for you).
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Scott,
There is a demo version of Pagestream v1.82 in DL 6 of this forum called
PSDEMO.LZH. I don't have PgS, so I don't know how relevent that version is
to PgS v2.0, but it might be useful to give you some experience with the
program.
David
Professional Page comes to mind… 🙂
– via Whap!
If printing to non-postscript devices will be important to you, than
Pagestream from SoftLogic has the edge over ProPage.
Scott,
Just to throw in my three cents. ProPage has always been significantly
better thn PageStream in all respects. It still maintains that lead.Like
any good tool, it may take a little longer to learn all the additional
capabilities, but, then all tasks are easier. ProPage can handle small
tasks effortlessly, large tasks – when you learn the appropriate commands,
prints very well to non-PostScript printers, and flawlessly to PostScript
printers. While neither company appears to have been based in graphics arts
originally, Gold Disk seems to have a far better understanding of the
graphic art and printing fields than SoftLogik, and their product reflects
this knowledge. Fortunately either choice will result in a very useable
program now. It wasn't too long ago that PageStream was too buggy to be
useable at all at a 'professional' level, and while ProPage was up to the
task, it had some very annoying 'features' (read: buglets) that made life
interesting (at 3 A.M. when all real computer work gets done, and all
program bugs surface) 8)
Rich
Just letting you know that I got your msg, even though it was mis-directed
to Michael. Thanks for the helpful info (likewise to everyone else who has
participated in this thread). ===Scott
Rich… your message to Scott was sent to me by mistake, however, please
read message #'s: 8652, 8653, & 8654.
Michael Gerard
Michael,
I don't do a lot of DTP, but I am kind of suprised that you would say
that PageStream has the edge of ProPage in non-postscript output. What are
its advantages? ProPage has had the CompuGraphic fonts for much longer
than PS, and Gold Disk own the exclusive rights to distribute CG fonts on
the Amiga platform, so I am assuming that SoftLogic has to purchase the
fonts from Gold Disk!
-Jason-
Jason, if you want CG fonts for PageStream you can always buy them from
Gold Disk. They are perfectly compatible.
— Ethan s\
Jason:
I believe that GD only had the rights to distribute Amiga CG fonts
exclusively for only 1 year. Apparently that year is over, and now both can
distribute them. What sort of bugs me is that PgS had to be different! Why
couldn't they have distributed CGFonts that also used the CGFONTS:
directory, and that would work with both PP & PgS? PgS has always IMHO been
different as they never even used the amiga's standard FONTS: directory for
their bitmap fonts, preferring to have a totally different form of font
(perhaps more like Atari fonts?) that can't be used in anything but PgS. It
would be really nice if all these DTP companies would get together and MAKE
a standard (that would hopefully include the normal FONTS: directory) sort
of like the IBM & Mac DTP companies did (get together to establish
standards). While it's bad enough that it's fairly hard to exchange files
with other machines (IBM or Mac), it really bothers me that they can't be
interchanged between programs on the same machine!
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike, PageStream wasn't allowed to distribute Compugraphic fonts at all,
Gold Disk had an exclusive contract. But the file formats ARE identical. CG
is a standard. You can get CG fonts from anyone and Adobe Type 1 fonts from
anyone.
— Ethan
Ethan:
No, CGfonts are not a 'Standard' they are fonts made by Compugraphic.
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike, CGfonts are a "Standard" in the sense that both ProPage and
PageStream take the same file, which was the context of the discussion.
— Ethan
Ethan:
Are you sure about the CGfonts files being the same? I don't think they
are as the PageStream ones are in 1 or 2 files (per font) I think while the
GD versions are in more (fontname.DAT fontname.LIB fontname.ATC). I might
be wrong, as I only looked at the PgS versions for about 5 minutes, however
I was refering to not only the file formats, but where the programs look
for the fonts as well. Most programs that use standard Amiga bitmapped
fonts look for the fonts in the FONTS: directory, and it would be nice if
the CGFONTS: could be the directory that programs will default to for
Compugraphic fonts. For all I know, C= when (if) they do Compugraphics like
they're supposedly doing might also use the CGFONTS: convention to look for
the fonts, and it'd be nice if PageStream wasn't such a selfish program.
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike,
As long as the fonts are stored the same way on disk, it doesn't really
matter where the default place they look for is. You can assign more than
one logical device to the same place, so if PP uses CGFONTS: and AmigaDos
2.x uses OLFONTS: you could still put all your fonts in DH0:CGFONTS and
"assign CGFONTS: DH0:CGFONTS" + "assign OLFONTS: DH0:CGFONTS" and you would
be in fine shape. It would be unfortunate however, if the fonts are stored
differently on disk, so that you had to keep seperate copies of the same
font, for different applications.
A side note, when and if 🙂 the "links" code gets worked out in 2.x you
could use that to have the fonts appear in two places when, infact they are
only in one@
-Jason-
As a matter of fact, Jason – you only have to store the font header on the
disk, and that header can contain the path to the place where the actual
font is. When I was using only floppies, I had the headers for dozens of
fonts on my WB, taking up very little space, but each telling me which disk
to insert for a particular font. There is even a program in Library 11
called REN.??? that lets you set up a whole directory of fonts this way
with a single command.
This works on Amiga fonts. I believe that the CGfonts do not have headers
of this type, so it would not work on them.
Betty
According to SoftLogic you can buy from Gold Disk and use with
PageStream. PgS does not use the fonts: directory, ever. You define what
directory to use in the setup part of PgS. What makes PgS so selfish?
— Ethan
I don't get it. PgS allows you to set the PATH for ALL directories,
including FONTS. If you wan t Pgs to look to one fonts directory, just use
the global set menu choices to do it.
MG
Mike,
Here's hoping it's Adobe. I really don't like the CG fonts. Today I loaded
a one-pager. I made it on my old machine and used CG fonts throughout.
WELL, I just didn't have the dope in my CGCache and it came onscreen 3
words at a time with the HD just sizzling. Several minutes before the whole
page was displayed. UGH!
Give me those good old Type 1's anytime.
Malcolm
Let me jump in here and shed some light on PageStream's capabilities. I
also have both PPage and PgS and have wound up favoring PageStream. Yes
early on PgS was buggy, but from the beginning it aspired to accomplish
much more. I believe Ppages 2.0 is a responce to PageStream's greater
flexibility.
FONTS:
PgS can use CG fonts (Yes it can use those extra CG fonts sold by Gold
Disk. It can not use those fonts that COME with Ppage because they have
modified to ONLY work with Ppage.)
Adobe Type 1 fonts ARE supported if they are in IBM format. Free
utilities are available to convert MAC type 1s to IBM format so you have
access to a huge variety of commercial, shareware, and PD fonts. Type 1
fonts may be printed to both ps printers and dot matrix printers (DJ, etc.)
but will not be "hinted" on non ps printers.
Soft logik also supplies a variety of it's own structured fonts. Screen
updates are fastest when using PageStream with SL fonts and very slow when
using type 1 fonts. This is no problem on my 030 based Ami but an exercise
in patience on a stock machine. PageStream 2.1 (available real soon now) is
supposed to address this speed problem.
In all cases the screen fonts (bitmapped) are derived from the
structured fonts the same as in Ppage. The screen display of text it now
about the same in both programs (Ppage used to have an advantage there).
Font casheing (sp?) is fully automatic. Ppage requires user input to build
the cashe.
FORMATTING:
PageStream supports very fine control over both character spacing and
leading – automatically or manually. Both batch and manual kerning is
supported. Justification can be accoplished through character spacing, word
spacing, or both automatically (very nice). Word wrap around irregular
objects is supported. Style "tagging" is supported. "Bleeding" or running
text off the edge of the page is supported. Any number of tab stops may be
set in any text box. Entire text boxes may be rotated to any angle.
GRAPHICS:
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Text typed directly onto the page (rather than into a text box) is
treated as a structured graphic and may be rotated about any of three axis
or resized. PageStream includes a complete set of structured drawing tools
including benzier curves. Ppage owners would have to also buy ProDraw to
gain this ability. (I like PgS's benzier curve tool much better than
ProDraw's. It works just like Dpaint's curve tool. I could never get the
hang of ProDraw's "control points").
PageStream is the clear winner when it comes to importing bitmapped
graphics. PgS will import graphics in a wide variety of formats including
those from Macs, IBMs, and STs. EPS is supported, and if it is an IBM EPS
file with a TIFF header, the bitmappped image will be displayed (I have not
yet tryed this myself). 24 bit IFF is supported. Since the graphics import
part of PageStream is modular the list of file formats supported by
PageStream is continiously growing. The lastest addition is support to the
GIF here on CIS. PageStream 2.1 will support ProDraw clips.
When a graphic is imported that file is incorperated into the PageStream
document. This makes for larger document files than Propage, but makes it
much easier to transport files from one machine to another, Propage has a
definit edge in displaying bitmapped graphics. I love it's grey scaled
screen images! PgS reduces all bitmapped graphics to black & white images
for screen display.
PRINTING:
Both PageStream and Ppage support PostScript and color output. Propage
is said to do a better job on color separation, but I can not confirm this
since I have not done any color work. Printer support is also modular so
many printers are included. PgS will print landscape pages to dot matrix
printers. Ppage will not. There is even a bitmap driver that when printed
to will create a superbitmap IFF file of each page – neat! PageStream works
WONDERFULLY with the HP Desk Jet (my setup).
So there it is. My suggestion: If you can only own one DTP package go with
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PageStream, it does more for less.
NO I don't work for SL, I just like the program!
-Paul-
Jason,
PageStream's own fonts (and the 3rd party fonts available for
PageStream) are also "structured fonts", similar to the CG fonts. And they
have been available for a lot longer than the CG fonts on Professional
Page. So the early users of PageStream were using structured fonts for
quite some time while Pro Page users had to make due with screen resolution
bitmapped fonts.
Now that Pro Page offers CG fonts, non-PostScript printer owners can
actually get some decent output from it, without having to resort to a
PostScript interperter. But PageStream will also use those CG fonts
(purchased from Gold Disk!), as well as Adobe Type 1 fonts and the original
PageStream fonts. And they will all give good output to both PostScript and
Non-PostScript printers – even the Adobe Type 1 Fonts! Pro Page would
probably be able to use the Adobe Type 1 fonts, but NOT to a Non-PostScript
printer. And it almost goes without saying that Pro Page won't use the
PageStream fonts. Now before you scoff at that, realize that at last count
there were about 23 disks of PageStream fonts – with three styles per disk.
Sure seems that PageStream has "Font Flexibility", ESPECIALLY for
Non-PostScript printer users!
Lloyd
Lloyd,
Let me start by saying that I wasn't stating that ProPage is better
than PageStream for non-PS output. I don't do a great deal of DTP and I
don't do any to a non-PS device. I was not aware that PageStream supported
Adobe fonts and could use them for non-PS output. Are they fully
scaleable? While I know that PageStream has had Outline Font tech for a
while, it is the opinion of allmost eveyone I have talked to that they (the
PageStream format fonts) are not of the same quality at the CG fonts. Also
the CG fonts have the advantage of being able to output to PS and non-PS
devices alike. AGFA (the makers of the CG font technology) are one of the
leaders in the DTP industry, and their fonts are very well respected.
-Jason
Jason,
I wasn't talking about "better or worse" comparisons between Pro Page
and PageStream. I just wanted to point out that Pro Page's inclusion of CG
fonts wasn't the *first* use of scalable fonts.
The CG fonts are quite good. I'm glad both programs can use them. The
Adobe type 1 are also pretty good ;^)
The PageStream fonts vary in quality, it is true. Some are quite good,
and there are others that I would never use, because of either their design
or execution.
Besides, the current crop of CG fonts from Gold Disk just duplicates the
font styles included in most PostScript printers, I believe. Since I
already have a PostScript printer, those fonts don't do me any good.
Lloyd
Lloyd:
Along with the original 35 CGfonts available from GoldDisk there are now
35 disks of Compugraphic fonts available from GoldDisk. These are real
fonts as well. If you're wondering what I mean by 'real', I'll tell you.
You can go to any commercial typesetter and ask for these fonts, and they
will either have them, or know of them, and be able to get them. Also many
of these fonts if not all of them are also available for the Mac so those
with more than just an Amiga can use the same style fonts across platforms,
and the same (to a limited degree) is true of the IBM Clone world too.
Although I know many that swear by PgS, I've found that perhaps due to
learning ProPage first, that I have trouble with it almost everytime I try
to use it, and to date havn't been able to use PgS for any pages, while
ProPage has already made me some money due to ads I've made with it.
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike,
What was this in reference to?
Both programs can use the CG "real fonts". PageStream can also now use
Adobe Type 1 fonts. I assume you'd also allow them to be classified as
"real fonts".
I haven't seen all of the 35 CG fonts that Gold Disk is selling, but I
believe they duplicate the 35 fonts built into any PostScript printer. So
other than giving the information to display the fonts on the screen, they
really don't give *me* anything (I have a PostScript printer). And all I
have to do is buy all those disks to get the screen representations?
PageStream offeres the Screen fonts for the internal PostScript fonts on
ONE disk. And since those fonts use the internal PostScript fonts, any
typesetter should also have those fonts.
So unless you have a Dot Matrix or HP LaserJet, the current crop of CG
fonts don't add NEW fonts to your repertoire. That may be ok for most, but
I'd want new and different fonts.
Both programs have advantages and weaknesses. I'm glad both are
competing and improving.
Lloyd
Lloyd:
The original 1 disk that GD put out was the 35 fonts that are resident in
MOST postscript printers. The 35 DISKS I was talking about are other fonts
like Bodini and Park Avenue, etc. As for screen representations, I *THINK*
that the GD fonts will be compatible with C='s implementation of
Compugraphic fonts, and so you'll be able to use them for the screen in all
(most) programs once that's added to the OS. I also happen to have a PS
printer, and as a matter of fact, along with having all the 35 fonts
installed on my system disk as well as in my printer, when I bought extra
fonts disk from golddisk I promply made PS versions of them with their
utility to do so, as well as Amiga bitmapped versions of them and when I
use ProPage I only use the PS versions of the fonts, and NOT the
Compugraphic ones (I find they're too slow for my liking, and I'm not that
concerned with smooth beautiful fonts onscreen, but only on paper!). I
prefer speed to smoothness for the screen display.
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Just a thought… Pagestream's "structured fonts" in the first
couple of versions of the program looked like hell when printed to a
LaserJet Series II. The top parts of letters such as "e" and "r" was cut
off, apparently due to a program bug. Anyway, if Pagestream had structured
fonts longer, they weren't very professional…
..tony m…
Jason,
Originally I leaned toward ProPage as THE dtp program for the Amiga. That
was due in large part to all of the bugs in PgS 1.6. Since then, however,
with the release of PageStream 1.8, & 2.0 (and, dare I say the real soon
now 2.1?) SoftLogic has done a remarkable job of not only fixing the bugs
in PageStream, but responding to the requests of users.
One year ago, everyone here was bitching about the bugs in PgS 1.6. One
month ago, everyone was bitching about how they wished they could import
Pro Draw clips into PageStream. You don't hear to much bitching anymore.
The upgrades, either free are very reasonable, have not only fixed bugs,
but also added feature after feature.
CG fonts (even the ones available as options from GD) can be used in
PageStream, as can Adobye Type 1. And Pro Draw clips import just fine.
For more info on PgS, see msg #'s 8652, 8653, & 8654.
MG
Gee–
You are making me think I should get PageStream instead of Propage 2.
Thanks for the info.
BTW–What is the biggest size page tha PStream can do? Can you make a big
poster for output to a Postscript service? Thanks.