#Hard Drive Advice
38 messages in this thread
I just ordered a Quantum 540MB SCSI and have a couple of concerns…I
am currently running a Maxtor 120MB SCSI mounted on a GVP Series II
controller. Have you (or anyone else out there reading this) run
these two drives from the same controller? If so, any problems? (Or
am I confusing IDE {many conflict problems} with SCSI {trouble free
if terminated properly}?) Also, do you know if there are any special
jumper settings or terminations necessary if these drives are run
from the same controller?
Daniel,
I'm using the Quantum with a 7345SR Maxtor and they both seem compatible to me.
I am also using a GVP Series II with these drives.
🙂
Chris
Thanks for the input. Are they both on the same connector (internal or
external)?
;^)
//daniel on autopilot in paradise
\X/ powered by intel and motorola
daniel,
Yes both are on same connector. I run a ribbon from the 50 pin header to two
internal 3.5" hard drives and an 44MB SyQuest. The ribbon continues out the box
to an external case containing (well it did until recently) a SyQuest 44 MB and
a Wantek 5150ES streaming tape. I use the 25Pin port for a removable Apple
PowerCD player.
Chris
Chris,
Thanks for the info about your system…it provides insight. The
QULT540S arrived. I have it installed on a 50 pin header ribbon with
the 7120S. When ExpertPrep queried the drive it came back that the
drive had 58?? (I can't remember exact number) cylinders, 3 heads, 62
sectors per track…the information I got from Quantum indicates the
drive is 1048 cyls, 16 hds, 59 spt…so, after a bit of wrestling
around with ExpertPrep, I was able to force these numbers (the ones
from Quantum) and the drive formatted out to 515M. Does this sound
normal to you? Also, does it format to 515M because ExpertPrep
counts 1M = 1,048,543 bytes and Quantum rates the drive with 1M =
1,000,000 bytes?
Now, I am pretty certain that one of the drives *must* be terminated
for all to work properly, but since the combination didn't seem to
work correctly, I removed the terminating resistors from the Quantum
and, just for curiosity, checked the Maxtor (sure enough, it's
terminating resistors were gone, too). The drives now seem to work
fine together (except that I need to figure out how to make them
intelligent about which is supposed to be the boot drive). Is this
because the connector at the end of the ribbon header somehow
provides the bus termination, making the resistors not needed on the
drives?
I know I ask a lot of questions, but this forum is my best (best =
accurate + timely) source of information and I just want to make sure I
won't encounter irrecoverable problems when the drive is nearly full of
data due to incorrect setup due to my ignorance.
Thank you for your time and assist. ;^)
Have a Happy, Healthy and Safe New Year!
//daniel on autopilot in paradise
\X/ powered by intel and motorola
daniel,
Here is the info expertprep provided for me.
QUANTUM: 525MB
LowCyl: 1
HiCyl: 5782
Heads: 3
Sectors: 62
Blocks: 1075649
> INFO
Mounted disks:
Unit Size Used Free Full Errs Status Name
DHQ: 525M 711454 363996 66% 0 Read/Write QUANTUM
It appears that I have 525MB out of the possible 549 formatted capacity shown
in the Table of SCSI specs provided by the seller.
Termination always seems different to each setup, and again different
when you add additional devices to the chain. Right now I haven't (it
seems) any termination myself since removing one of the external
devices (failed tape drive) which was the terminated device. I'm
preparing to move all the external devices into one case so I'll be
playing with the termination again later this month. But I don't
think the ribbon header provides any termination.
On page 2 of expertprep you can choose whether the drive is the BOOT drive or
just to be mounted on BOOT. It is a toggle gadget under the Boot/Mount option
on the left of the screen. Choices are BOOT, MOUNT and NOMOUNT. You should
also be able to hold down both mouse buttons on boot-up and get the boot
screen. From there you should be able to choose which drive you want to boot
from, however, when I try that I get a crash, using WB3.1.
The other choices in Expertprep are Disconnect, Last Disk, and Last LUN. I've
always been somewhat unsure how to use these, maybe another person with more
technical knowledge can provide us with some insight on these choices.
Termination has always been a black art for me. I found that you have to play
around with it, moving the resistors from device one to device two, etc.
There is active termination available. It is an external device that
provides powered termination, LEDs to indicate what is going on and
the advertisements in APS Technologies ((800) 947-8599) make the SCSI
SENTRY look interesting. Part of the ad reads,"answer to your SCSI
woes. Take the Voodoo out of SCSI with SCSI Sentry or our new SCSI
Sentry II." Listed @$79.95 and $99.95. Looks like an external pass
through terminator with a couple of LED triangles and a power button.
Getting their catalog is worth a call, it if full of interesting products. But
slightly pricey. I do like the looks of their external cases and unique way
they connect them with minimal length connections that are heavily shielded.
Probably well worth the added cost.
Now on AP1.75 but I miss having the formatting of 1.74 or understand why!
Christopher
>QUANTUM: 525MB
> LowCyl: 1
> HiCyl: 5782
> Heads: 3
>Sectors: 62
>Blocks: 1075649
Yes, this is the same default info that ExpertPrep provided me with.
>>INFO
>Mounted disks:
>Unit Size Used Free Full Errs Status Name
>DHQ: 525M 711454 363996 66% 0 Read/Write QUANTUM
When I forced the manufacturer's information on cyls, hds, and spt it resulted
in:
Mounted disks:
Unit Size Used Free Full Errs Status Name
DH1: 516M 275 1057003 0% 0 Read/Write DH1{515MB}
//daniel on
\X/ AutoPilot 1.75
Daniel,
While the drive is rated for 525 MB no one really gets that after
formatting and setting up the drive. The greater the storage space,
the higher the discrepancy. Do not worry as this is normal, and all
that is happening is that the system (not the OS, but the lower level
HD control system) allocates a certain number of required MBs to put
the disk information required to find files that you put on the
harddrive. This is know as the RDB (Rigid Disk Block) and also
contains the boot information, format, FAT etc. The higher the
storage space (ie. the higher the amount of MB) the greater the
needed space.
Don't forget about the reserved blocks that are used to replace any bad blocks
mapped out over the course of the drive's usage.
Christopher
Oops. Right you are Chris. It's the little things that a person always
forgets. Tnx.
Trent
'Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori'
I'm sure you will see the message I just left to Chris, so I won't repeat it
here.
Thank you for the helpful information. I shall keep the messages from you and
Chris because they contained so much useful information.
//daniel on autopilot in paradise
\X/ powered by intel and motorola
What is the mechanism by which this process works? Would you please explain?
thanks.
//daniel on autopilot in paradise
\X/ powered by intel and motorola
daniel,
The way I understand it, the firmware on the drive is what actually does the
formatting. It includes the 'map' of what is reserved blocks and when you
select bad block format from the prep software, the drive attempts to 'map out
bad blocks that fail a test' and remap the reserved blocks back into the
overall mapping of useable blocks to replace the bad ones.
– Best I can describe it!
Christopher
Chris,
Thanks! Your explanation is very clear and sensible.
//daniel on
\X/ AutoPilot 1.75
daniel,
you say that the quantum info indicates the LT540s drive has 16 heads?! When I
used their fax on demand service I got a data sheet that indicates it has only
3 heads, like the prep software provided.
I couldn't find number of cylinders on the data sheet but here are the specs
that were provided:
Total Logical Blocks 1,074,023
Sectors per Track 64 to 128
Bytes per sector 512
Tracks per Surface 3,763
Physical Disks 2
Physical heads 3
Christopher
I probably said that but to be more specific (I may have (probably) goofed
here)…I called Quantum's support line. They have the same blasted automated
voice answering/tone select system as (almost) everyone else. I guided through
this touch-tone maze to the section for the drive capacity range that this
drive fit into, then the only drive the system talked about that was close was
the "ProDrive LPS540". That is the info I used…I now have this sinking
feeling… now I wish I had picked up GPFax as my modem's fax capability is
very sorely neglected.
What was the document number you got from their fax-on-demand system?
Total Logical Blocks 1,074,023
Sectors per Track 64 to 128
Bytes per sector 512
Tracks per Surface 3,763
Physical Disks 2
Physical heads 3
This still doesn't seem to correlate to what ExpertPrep defaulted to:
LowCyl: 1
HiCyl: 5782
Heads: 3
Sectors: 62
Name: Quantum
Size: 525MB
Blocks: 1,075,649
In any case, I think I'm gonna be calling Quantum tomorrow, to speak with a
real human on the other end.
//daniel on
\X/ AutoPilot 1.75
daniel,
I first had the fax thingie send me a document catalog and then called and
requested from it document #7178, Lightning 540s.
I realize that the info from Quantum doesn't correlate with what ExpertPrep
displayed but I haven't figured out how to interpret the blocks into number of
Cylinders.
Here is something to ponder, the 540MB has two physical disks and 3 heads,
while the 730MB drive has two physical disks and 4 heads. Does that mean that
the 540 could have been a 730 if it only had one more head and I guess the
other side of that second disk verified as acceptable media?
Christopher
It would seem so, wouldn't it (720 vs. 540). Even more intriguing is that I
wonder if there are only 3 heads in the 540 or if it's a firmware controlled
condition….
Thanks for the document number. I didn't get a chance to call today, but will
soon… or maybe I'll order GPFax and then get some use out of this fax
option… I could use the dickens out of that!
//daniel on
\X/ AutoPilot 1.75
Should be no real problem as long as the last drive is terminated and
each of the seperate SCSI units has its own ID number.
Trent
One of the "Frozen Chosen"
Should I expect documentation with the hard drive that shows how to
terminate it (jumper, resistor pack, location of terminals, etc.)? Should
I need any additional (i.e.- not included with the drive) components to
accomplish termination (such as a resistor pack, shorting jumper, etc.)?
Please excuse my ignorance, but I've not had to deal directly with this
before.
//daniel on autopilot in paradise
\X/ powered by intel and motorola
Two common ways that a drive is terminated. The first and most
common is that near the drives' SCSI connector is a row of resistors
(usually just right behind the connector). With the resistors
already in, the drive is terminated (it comes from the factory
already terminated). If this drive is NOT to be the last in the
chain, these resistors have to be removed. If it IS the last, then
the resistors stay in, and any other drives before it in the chain
have to have their termination resistors removed. The second way is
with a resistor pack attatchment (by far the best way IMHO). With
the pack inserted into the drives' SCSI connector and the ribbon
inserted in the pack, the drive is terminated and contrawise to be
unterminated. All needed equipment should be supplied with your
drive (well, you may need a pair of needlenose pliers if the drive
uses the #1 method). The documentation with the drive HAS to show
you how the drive is terminated, as well as show you the dipswitch
settings for the SCSI ID # (if the drive is an internal). Make sure
that the SCSI ID is set to an unique number different from any other
SCSI device you have in the chain (or the drive will just not work!
<g>). Oh yeah. You may need to get jumpers for the SCSI ID # (some
companies are cheap and only provide one jumper! This was the case
with both my Quantums). If you run into problems just give me a
shout. Enjoy..
Trent
One of the "Frozen Chosen"
Trent,
TH> Make sure that the SCSI ID is set to an unique number different from
TH> any other SCSI device you have in the chain (or the drive will just
TH> not work! <g>).
I've a 52 MB Quantum that I'm not using – can't figure how to set the
device address. It has jumpers labeled A0, A1, A2 and another set of two
jumpers side by side w/ no label.
Any ideas? Thanks in advance.
Dickoux
Hi Dick,
> I've a 52 MB Quantum that I'm not using – can't figure how to set the >
device address. It has jumpers labeled A0, A1, A2 and another set of two >
jumpers side by side w/ no label.
Think of them as binary numbers. if you set jumper A0, it will represent 2 to
the power of zero (hence it will be either 0 or 1).
If you set jumper A1, it will represent 2 to the power of 1 (which will be
either 0 or 2)
If you set jumper A2, it will represent 2 to the power of 2 (which will be
either 0 or 4)
This table may help :
SCSI ID Settings: A0 A1 A2 0 Off Off Off 1
On Off Off 2 Off On Off 3 On
On Off 4 Off Off On 5 On Off
On 6 Off On On 7 is possible (On On On) But is reserved
for the controller – Don't use!
To set a jumper 'on', just place the shorting block across the two pins.
As Trent mentioned before, you may have to get extra shorting blocks for higher
numbers, some drives ship with only one.
-Muzz
Murray,
Thanks for the great reply. Good to know that help of this calibre is
right here in my computer room!
Dickoux
Dick,
The pin sets labeled A0, A1 & A2 would be the ones needed to set the
SCSI ID #. If the drive was bought new, the SCSI ID should be set to
0 already (this is the factory default setting). This means that all
three sets of pins are set to OFF (ie none of the pins are shorted by
the jumper[s]). Please note that pins are OFF if the jumpers are NOT
connected. With that the following table should give you the SCSI ID
numbers (just from one of my Quantums, as the other is an external):
A0 A1 A2
0 OFF OFF OFF
1 ON OFF OFF
2 OFF ON OFF
3 ON ON OFF
4 OFF OFF ON
5 ON OFF ON
6 OFF ON ON
7 ON ON ON
Do not use SCSI ID 7 as this is usually used by the controller itself
(think of the controller as another SCSI device on your SCSI chain). The
extra set of jumpers are probably for the LED display (you do not need to
worry about hooking this up as it has nothing to do with the HD's
operation, it is more for the operator to show that the HD is being
accessed). Hope this helps.
Trent
One of the "Frozen Chosen"
Trent,
Thanks for the expertise. Your reply is a 'keeper'.
Dickoux
Thanks for all the info!
The drive came with the row of resistors right behind the connector just
as you stated. It also came with a mounting rail kit for use in a 5.25"
bay and more jumpers than I could ever need! I don't know if it's okay to
plug a company here so let it suffice to say that if you are in the market
for a new hard drive, I recommend the company that has won CShopper's Best
Buy Award every year since 1988 (Off the box now).
I have one question related to your message…when I had the terminating
resistors installed, the drives did not seem to work correctly. Since
removing them, both drives appear to be running hot, straight and
normal…does the end connector on the ribbon header somehow provide
termination? This would be contrary to all that I've read over the years.
No, I don't have any special resistor pack on either drive connector
as you described. Since this didn't seem right to me, I took the
Maxtor off the controller card and checked it and, sure enough, it's
termination resistors are not there…. So, I have both drives up
and running and neither has terminating resistors installed and all
seems to be working properly except that now I must figure out how to
make the drives smart about which is to be the boot drive upon
startup…I think there is contention at power-up now which is
resolved by immediately using the three finger salute
(CTRL-LAMIGA-RAMIGA) to proceed with a normal boot process.
Happy New Year!
//daniel on autopilot in paradise
\X/ powered by intel and motorola
daniel,
If your having to warm-boot each time to get the drives up, there is some
problem. I'd venture a guess that you need to terminate one of the drives on
the SCSI chain. Basically the termination on the new drive should have been
left in place, however if you had problems like you mentioned try terminating
the other drive instead. Those ribbon header connectors haven't any termination
inside them.
Now on AP1.75 but I miss having the formatting of 1.74 or understand why!
Christopher
Hmmm… Now that sounds interesting. What type of controller card are
you using? I recall that I had a similar thing happen to me when I
installed my second Quantum. Both drives operated whether they were
terminated or not and it was not till I added my CDRom and then a
tape drive that I needed to worry about the last unit in the chain
being terminated (and the other units unterminated). It may be just
a quirk of Quantum drives or a combination of certain controller
cards with certain drives.
=>does the end connector on the ribbon header somehow provide termination?
If it is a normal SCSI 50 pin connector it should not. Usually a special
pack is needed to provide termination.
=>now I must figure out how to make the drives smart about which is to be
=>the boot drive upon startup
This would now depend upon what type of controller card you have.
With mine, a GVP SCSI/RAM +, two programs were provided (one an
expert prep that allowed me to configure the SCSI chain in a little
more detail, and a fastprep, which just allowed me to get the system
up and running properly). Both programs allowed me to choose which
drive (actually which partition on one drive) would be the boot and
which drive/partition was just to be mounted. I would assume that
you should have something similar, and if not, you should be able to
do it using the HDTool program that comes with whatever Workbench you
are running. If this does not work, there should be any number of
sharware programs that would allow you to write to the RDB (Rigid
Disk Block) on your system to tell it what drive/partition is the
boot and which should just be mounted.
I have a GVP Series II SCSI + Ram controller also.
Thanks for all the info…you've been very helpful and I'm sure I now have all
the information I need to get this thing set up the way it should be. I just
haven't had the time this last week to disassemble the case and install the
termination resistors and ExpertPrep the drive again. Hopefully this weekend.
Again, thank you!
;^)
//daniel on autopilot in paradise
\X/ powered by intel and motorola
The Quantum I purchased from MegaHaus came with excellent
documentation, a reprint of Quantum information. Stuff like SCSI
Address chart, SCSI Specs on all the drives, a SCSI Jumper Table, and
phone numbers and times for tech support at Quantum. It also lists
the MOLEX housing part number for the Remote Control connectors on
the drive.
It also had the terminators pre-installed, something I had to
remove,and included shorting jumpers. If needed you can purchase a
pack of them at any radio shack, although those seemed a bit large
for this new Quantum, the pins keep getting smaller & shorter. If
your buying the drive bare-bones you get NO cabling, or mounting
rails. The Maxtor came with instructions & terminators, but no
shorting jumpers or rails. Something I didn't need. Best thing is to
ask order taker what's included and what else is available to ease
your installation.
Christopher;
PMFJI but I would very much appreciate your posting the address and phone
number of Quantum.
Thanks;
Hank
OK, Hank.
I posted it once already to Michael Shea, but just in case you missed
it here it is again. Plus for other 'lurkers' I will include some
other info. The Quantum Lightning LT 540 hard drive I purchased came
with the SCSI ID# set to 6. And a good thing it was too, the shorting
pins on this drive are much smaller than the older pin headers and
the shorting blocks I have are much too large to be used on it (too
long and slip right off). By setting it to #6 at the factory they've
included three (3) of these super tiny shorting blocks at no extra
cost! And believe me, you don't want to have to go searching for
these critters when your all salivating to get at all that
inexpensive mega storage space. 🙂
Quantum Info:
Quantum technical support lines are open Monday through Thursday from 7:00
AM to 5:00 PM and Friday From 7:00 AM to 2:00 PM PST.
The Technical Support telephone number in the U.S. is (800) 826-8022.
The following 24-hour services are available:
o Fax-On-Demand (800) 4DISKFAX
o BBS (408) 894-3214
o MegaHaus Orders (800) 786-1158
o MegaHaus Tech (713) 333-1944 Mon-Fri 9 AM-6 PM CST
o Future Domain (714) 253-0440
o BBS (714) 253-0432
o MacWarehouse (800) 255-6227
Christopher
Sorry, Chris;
I saw your message to Michael Shea after I sent you the request.
Thanks;
Hank
Interesting. I ordered the QULT540S and a WD2540A, both bare drives,
at the same time from Insight (Hard Drives International). The clerk
told me on the phone that the Western Digital Caviar would come with
mounting frame kit & dual ide cable, and that the Quantum would come
>without< the dual SCSI cable. So, I ordered a 50 pin dual SCSI
cable at the same time.
Well, the package arrived a few days ago and *>both<* *>bare drive
kits<* included mounting rail kits complete with bezels, extra
jumpers & screws and dual cables. It's a good thing the extra cable
was only $3…hardly worth sending back or making a fuss over. Oh
yeah, complete professionally prepared installation manual from
Insight for both drives (er, uh, except that the SCSI Hard Drive
Installation Guide does not include my particular drive
model…that's okay since Quantum's telephone number was provided and
their automated technical service does and includes all jumper
settings, etc.).
//daniel on autopilot in paradise
\X/ powered by intel and motorola
Daniel,
Could you give me Quantum's number please?
C. Davey
Yes.
Quantum Tech Support @ (800) 826-8022.
//daniel on autopilot in paradise
\X/ powered by intel and motorola
Thanks.
C. Davey