CONVERT LIGHTWAVE TO 3DS
27 messages in this thread
PMJI, but isn't it just "what the market will bear?" I mean, you charge as
much as you think you can get, John. If you thought you could get a lot more
(units * per unit cost = total amount) then you'd charge it. It all reminds me
of the Dennis the Menace cartoon where (in 1950's) he had a lemonade stand with
a sign saying "$5.00 per glass" and was saying to his despondant pay Joey
(obviously moaning the lack of business), "Don't worry, Joey. All we have to
do is sell ONE GLASS!"
Personally, I think most software is overpriced, even including the incredible
3DS (maybe ESPECIALLY including it). I write software for a living, like most
of you, so I think I have as much right to think this as any of you. I just
bought an incredible add-on for Fractal painter called Kai's Power Tools (to
take an example) and it does so much more than one set of $300 IPAS routines
from the Yost boutique that I wonder why it only cost me $80. Not knocking the
IPAS routines, just the pricing. I would have been glad to pay twice as much
for the KPT — but then, if it had been a 3DS add-on (designed for architects
and others who can afford a 3K program) it would have cost $500 and I might not
have been able to get it for months.
And if it had been for the Amiga I could have gotten it for $49.95 and afforded
to take my family out to eat this month.
Software (especially games) is like a record album: it sells well
after first release, and without "upgrades," sales peter out. Or
another way to look at it, it's like an agricultural crop. If you
can't sell it quickly, it rots. And keeping these analogies in mind,
you attempt to determine a demand curve… if it's priced at $50,
can we sell 10K instead of 100 at $500? Is there a better chance we
can sell 20K at $50 as opposed to 150 at $500? And then you must
look ahead to upgrade and add-on sales. KPT is cheap, indeed, and I'd
bet everyone buys the CD version and the next three upgrades, even if
they're $50 each, too.
The Amiga market ate its children and its seed corn… without healthy
margins and/or high volume, it couldn't survive. I think prices were
comparatively low because of naive software producers, not a lack of
demand or a lack of talent.
Mike, I thought it might be appropriate for me to comment on your note
that you think our IPAS routines are overpriced compared to Kai's
Power Tools.
1) The market for KPT is at LEAST an order of magnitude bigger than
the market for IPAS routines. Just this alone is justification for a
publisher to charge a lower price.
The corollary to 1 is:
2) Since the market for IPAS routines is so small, and since the
programmers have to be compensated well enough for it to be worth
their while, pricing is extremely important. To be perfectly honest,
I'm barely making enough money from IPAS routines now to warrant
going on with them, but since we've just implemented all those great
IPAS3 features, I feel honor-bound to show everyone what's truly
possible to do with r3. I'd MUCH rather spend my precious few free
moments enjoying my life while I'm still here on the planet… which
for all of us is an extremely short period of time. Rolf and Darrel
(who are doing all the IPAS3 work for this spring's release… only 2
collections this time) have made just enough from the first disks to
warrant doing more. (piracy of our unprotected routines has been a
larger problem than you might realize)
Your argument to this would probably be that we could charge less and
sell more. Perhaps we could, but from the feedback we've gotten from
many people and dealers, that's not the case. I'm sure that as the
3D plug-in market matures in the future, market dynamics will drive
down prices. We're just WAY behind the 2D curve at the moment — but
we're bound to catch up eventually.
Thanks for listening,
– G
As you know, Gary, all seriousness aside I consider your efforts to be the only
reason worth having a computer. I'm just mostly thankful you didn't charge so
much I'd have to take up a life of crime just to support my habit (and I'm not
particularly talking tongue in cheek here). So… you really can do no wrong
by me.
But I still think your argument is specious. I think 3DS (and add ons) could
sell a TON — I mean it. A simple ton — I've seen enough interest among my
peer group (the over 40 computerist who knew these things would be fun but just
hasn't seen it yet) to know that ALL of them would buy it if it were even
SOMEWHAT cheaper — say under that magical $1000 price barrier. You have your
marketing experts, and I'm certainly not one, but on the other hand I seem to
have an uncanny knack of knowing what people want (long story) and I just think
people want this. Now, most on this forum would be very opposed to having 3DS
available to the masses — seeing it as a threat to their living. But I see 3D
programs in general the same way the DTP market is — soon everyone will be
rolling their own, and everyone wants to, no matter how bad or amaturish their
efforts are. To put it another way — just how many of those millions of kids
who play those video games do you think want to create their own graphics? No
science or witchcraft involved — all of them. And how many will get their
parents (or themselves — I'm amazed at how much disposable income they have)
to buy them a program that's several hundred dollars. Yep, same answer.
So, you guys know what you're doing, and I'm not going to talk you out of it
anyway, I just happen to think you're wrong, so we don't agree, and so it's a
free county and I sure don't want to offend my deity who makes my life worth
living. But it's just as well you only plan 2 more IPAS packages — I'd like
to have SOME kind of money available to do something for my wife this year.
Hey, your wife is more important than this CG stuff! Right? <g>
I respect your opinion, Mike. And like I said, I'm sure that the dynamics of
the 3D visualization market are going to change quite a bit over the next few
years.
– G
>Hey, your wife is more important than this CG stuff! Right? <g>
Oh…. Hmmm… Yeah, sure, I think, that's right, of course, I mean,
right, she's the one, she's… CG? Hmmmm….
All seriousness aside (and I wish this was a way to continue this
thread by addressing to all, but I guess I don't know WinCim as well
as I thought) I will be the one voice of sanity for all the little
people out here. To the people, such as Chuck, who think 3DS should
be higher (or not lower) — shame on you! You are sheltering
yourself behind a facade that's such a house of cards it's not worthy
of comment. Do you think it makes a difference what typewriter
Hemmingway used? Who cares what word processor the book you read is
being produced on? The truth is, as this 3D stuff explodes (and it
will — even *I* can see that) everyone will be doing it, like it or
not you guys, and the test then for your clients won't be "what kind
of machine was this made on, and what tools were used?" but what the
output looks like.
This kind of reminds me about the comments made about the Jurassic
Park effects — when the movie first broke everyone wanted to
downplay the computer stuff, because it was better for movie PR that
the monsters were full sized and "real". Then, as they found out
people actually liked the idea of computer graphics, they started
admitting the real story.
Just like DTP, 3D for the masses will come. And then, it won't matter
how much money you have, just how much talent. That will be VERY
scary for some — I hope most of the people in this forum don't fall
in this category.
Sir…
Yes… I'd have to say you are right… 3D has (and will continue) to come to
the masses. But… Just like many different pub packages are in the market, so
to will be 3D tools. But… A quality tool makes the work better and faster.
Part of a quality tool is the logistic package behind it! A major part, in
fact, is support and market push.
Point in fact… If Studio ver 1. was $899 or so… Would enough money have
been made to get V2… And the awesome power of V3 requires real tech help with
stuff like Net rendering, or complex lofting, or etc… And the simple fact of
the matter is that many users NEED more than they can afford when it comes to
"hand holding." I find it funny that most people think $3,000 is more than "I
should have to pay" – You can pay that, but I should not have to… After all,
I'll be going after jobs that are from $xxx to $xx,xxx. I'll need the money I
save to buy other cheap tools and make long distance tech calls…
So lets say Ernest can't make his Typewriter work… The place he bought his TW
is out of biz… See they discounted his TW, and they went down the tubes…
Well, looks like Mr H should buy some TW support, so he can be great.
Otherwise, he finds himself bieng a computer (oops TW ) technician…
Feeling Better?
Dr Pixel
>And the awesome power of V3 requires real tech help with stuff like
Net rendering, >or complex lofting, or etc…
I'm not trying to drag this out, because obviously most of the users
here (high end types that you are) have no idea what I'm talking
about. That's okay — the times, as Mr. Dylan quite rightly pointed
out so long ago, are changing, and eventually will turn out right —
that is, the way *I* want them to be. (BTW, I see no need for "grin"
remarks on CIS — isn't it amazing how many years writers have
provided humor in the written word without them).
But… At the risk of condensing your argument incorrectly, it looks
as though you're saying the high price of 3DS (and, by extension I
hope, the IPAS routines which is where I was really complaining) is
justified because of support, then you're dead wrong. There's no
bigger support problem than that required by MS Access, yet MS gives
that program away. Yes, they actually charge for support phone
calls, but at least you can make them. With 3DS I can't (and let's
not talk about dealers — my dealer couldn't loft an object if his
life depended upon it). I have EXCELLENT, even undreamt of support
here on the forum — because G. Yost is an honorable, wonderful man
who is wise beyond his years (I'm not getting into the God issue
here, Gary) and deserves whatever he can get out of life. If he
drops dead we're all in big trouble (okay, so there are lots of other
helpful people around here, but that's because of the example G and J
set. Truly. It all comes from the top).
Like others have pointed out here, it's installed base that matters,
and my whole point is that 3DS would have a HUGE installed base if
the price were right. I just don't think the price is, and someday
that will be a problem for them.
(And I knew Ernest, and he would have simply thrown the whole @#$@#%@
broken typewriter into the ocean, and, because they were _cheap_
enough, just bought another one)
Mike,
PMJI, but there is one comment that I feel that I have to respond to…
>> There's no bigger support problem than that required by MS Access,
yet MS gives that program away. Yes, they actually charge for
support phone calls, but at least you can make them. <<
Yes I agree, and that is the reason that Access died a quick miserable
death as a stand alone program! If Microsoft was not "giving" it
away in its "office professional" product, there would have been
about 3 copies shipped (no, make that 2 as I would have returned
mine). Terrible apps, supported or not, will die a terrible death!
I'm sorry that you have not recieved support from you dealer, but that
is a separate issue that needs to be dealt with by AutoDesk. There
are dealers out there that CAN loft an object, and that level of
support requires a significant commitment on the dealership's part
(and is reflected in the prices charged by that dealership).
Unfortunately, there is a significant portion of the user base that
will ALWAYS purchase on price and price alone, breading the "box
shopping" dealers you have mentioned. AutoDesk gets some of the blame
for the poor dealers, but the user base has created the need for
these "price only" dealers and deserves an equal share of the blame.
In a free market, a demand will always foster a supply!
Jumpin in with both feet,
Chuck
Hi Mike and guys….
Thought I would jump in on this one. Access has died because MS bought
Foxpro. Access was no match for the capabilities of FP. Not to
mention the potential of WIN, MAC and UNIX. There was no way any
serious developer was going to use it.
I too wish that I spent less on 3DS. But I am also glad that this
product has the reputation it does. If I ever saw it in PC Connection
or some discount place, I would be very disappointed. Yeh I wish that
my support was better (what do you expect in MT?), but sometimes it
is better to learn the hard way. Believe me there is no way any
dealer could offer the degree of support that we all could demand.
Hats off the Mr. Yost and his crew! I hate writing checks but as long
as the direction heads where it seems to be pointing I'm sticking
with 3DS. Maybe someday I may get into some of the toaster junk but I
hope they have big plans to improve the hardware.
Thanks G Yost, G Pyros, M Foster, D Landis and all the rest who stick
by this board to answer our dumb (sometimes) questions.
>> Thanks G Yost, G Pyros, M Foster, D Landis and all the rest who stick by
>> this board to answer our dumb (sometimes) questions.
And hats off to you guys who tolerate our dumb (sometimes) answers!
Greg Pyros
And you're home typing these messages with a 103 temperature! What a trooper!
With all the help that so many folks are providing around here, you'd
have to open up a hat store before you could take off all those hats!
Who has a hat store? None of my hats fit anymore! <G>
>>Thanks G Yost, G Pyros, M Foster, D Landis and all the rest who stick by this
board to answer our dumb (sometimes) questions.
I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy….<g>
Steve,
>> If I ever saw it in PC Connection or some discount place, I would be very
disappointed. <<
I second that comment, and would add that the product would not enjoy the truly
"professional" reputation it enjoys now!
>> Hats off the Mr. Yost and his crew! …….Thanks G Yost, G Pyros, M Foster,
D Landis and all the rest who stick by this board to answer our dumb
(sometimes) questions. <<
I agree totally. I try diligently to convince my clients of the value
of CI$, sometimes to no avail. But, those of you that are up here
understand this resource!
I would like to add one name to that list though, as I personally
enjoy the technical expertise of Gus Grubba. As a support person
myself, Gus can be truly AMAZING sometimes. Gus, keep up the good
work and allow me to extend a very deserved "ThankYou" from all of us
"Techies"!
Sorry my mistake! My hat please….a big hat off to Mr. Gubba. I have learned a
great deal from his threads. The only bummer about all of these guys, is that I
realize I know so little. My clients seem to think I have all of the answers in
the PC world. If they only knew how much there is to learn.
SW
S,
>> Thanks G Yost, G Pyros, M Foster, D Landis and all the rest who stick by
this board to answer our dumb (sometimes) questions.<<
Thanks very much. I get a lot of pleasure from helping out around here
and have done so for 2.5 years now. There's plenty of others too who
have helped out on a consistent basis, but I don't want to add anyone
because I might miss someone.
Mike, think about this: How many 3DS users are there worldwide? (hint: not as
many as you think). How many Photostyler/Photoshop/Fractal Paint/etc… users
are there around the world? (hint: my guess is at LEAST 66 times more, and
that's probably laughably underestimated) Now, take $99.00 times 66, and what
do you get? A whole lot more $$$ than a single IPAS collection. I think $300
is a lot of money, too, but this is not a pastime – there are only so many 3DS
packages in use out there, and it's got to be worth it financially for someone
to write apps for them. When there are more 3DS packages floating around then
I'm sure the price will go down. But then there'll be that much more
competition in the market…
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
Mike, think about this: How many 3DS users are there worldwide? (hint: not as
many as you think). How many Photostyler/Photoshop/Fractal Paint/etc… users
are there around the world? (hint: my guess is at LEAST 66 times more, and
that's probably laughably underestimated) Now, take $99.00 times 66, and what
do you get? A whole lot more $$$ than a single IPAS collection. I think $300
is a lot of money, too, but this is not a pastime – there are only so many 3DS
packages in use out there, and it's got to be worth it financially for someone
to write apps for them. When there are more 3DS packages floating around then
I'm sure the price will go down. But then there'll be that much more
competition in the market…
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John (and Mike),
PMJI, but there is one other issue that needs to be balanced here – the high
end! There are dealers (a couple on this forum regularly) that would _love_ to
see 3DS price considerably higher! Not for the profit margins, etc. that
ultimately come to mind, but for something completely different…….
One of the hardest things to do is convince a client that your $12,000 solution
(3DS, Hardware, Frame Buffer, a few IPAS routines, etc.) will do 90% (or 80%,
or 70% … )of the things that they are doing with their $80,000 system. They
just don't believe it! I know, because although we don't have many Wavefront
or SoftImage systems here in Wichita <G>, we are experiencing this with the
Mechanical products. People won't believe, and don't _want_ to believe that
AutoCAD, Designer, Surf and Mill can outperform CATIA in more that one
application for a fraction of the cost! If this package were priced higher,
that would change.
You see, would you want to tell your boss, the one you convinced a year ago to
purchase a CATIA station, that you were wrong! Heck no, and neither do these
guys. Silly I know, but a reality!
Just spoutin'
Chuck
I'm accutely aware of the 3ds vs. high price package "identity crisis" issue.
Whenever I tell somebody peripherally involved in video or graphics that I do
3D on a pc I feel like I've got to spew out the R3 feature list for them not to
go "oh, yeah, great…". And they often don't believe that a pc package can do
what I'm telling them I can do with 3DS <g> — thanks Gary, et al.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
Chuck – you make a damn good point here!
>> One of the hardest things to do is convince a client that your $12,000
solution …. will do 90% …. of the things that they are doing with their
$80,000 system. <<
I have the same problem with clients, sometimes. "But it couldn't!"
And you ain't just spouting' there's a real psychological aspect to the whole
issue you raise. And a big one!
Obviously, I couldn't afford it if it went into the $15,000 range and it would
have to be competitively worth it, but its a very good psychological point.
On a tangent >> There's a great ice-cream manufacturer in Northern California
called Dreyer's. << And all of a sudden they got real popular and of course the
press wanted to know the secret of their success. <<
They said the answer was simple, "we raised our prices". People saw value at
the higher price they didn't see at the lower one. Amazing isn't it. <G>
-JE
BTW this contradicts my earlier position on making 3DS affordable to students,
by in my convoluted way, I think its consistent. I still support making 3DS
affordable to students, or at least providing broad access.
This has to be a real dilema for AutoDesk. My point (which I never
made!) was that I feel they have achieved an acceptable balance. 3DS3
is priced accordingly to:
1) Achieve enough market share to generate sufficient revenues to
allow continued research and development (and KILLER upgrades like
R3!).
2) Allow _some_ penetration into the high end thanks to KILLER
dealers like the Pyros Partnership and NW Tech (no rub there Greg and
Dan, just the truth!).
While I could make a case for increasing the price of 3DS, I wouldn't
recommend it. BUT I also would not recommend lowering the price!
There you go, forcing me to agree with you again! Stop it! <g>
I concur with your accessment with regard to the pricing of 3DS. I
think its at a good place and people are rapidly learning that it is
a very capable animation package, and that indeed it can compete with
much more costly programs and hardware.