#PAR News Flash!
48 messages in this thread
Best news I've heard all evening, Alan. I have had everything except the PAR
for two weeks now and I was told mine was shipped last week. Can't wait!.
Which HD did you use? I have the MIC 2210A here. Guess I could start
rendering one of those 6-7 minute animations at 752×480 <BG>
Right on about the revolution in recording. I said this last December and I
have a list of those Nay Sayers that I'm hoping to respond to at this time next
year when my perediction will come true. I even bought Rush Limbaugh's book
"See, I told you so!" so I could learn to do it with audacity and flare of the
great big mouth <BG>
O.K. Don you put up the flag… what prediction was that? Hmmmm
>> I'm hoping to respond to at this time next year when my prediction will come
true. <<
Oh yeah the one about Diaquest being out of business because nobody will want
frame by frame. Is that the one Don…. Hmmmm? <G>
-JE
There you go, stirring the **(fill in word of choice here)** again <g>.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
Why I am I the one that gets the credit for stirring things up!
Don was the one who put it out there… AGAIN! <g>
And he even has a list of people he wants to taunt, jeez.
-JE
Yea! and you two are at the top of the list!
Paul is #3
<BG>
Don, don't look now but Paul won't settle for the #3 position. <BG>
-JE
Actually, I might have to remove Paul from my list because he already
is moving in the NEW direction. I don't recall him saying anything
about his acquiring Quick Pass and a few more DQ-422s but I do recall
him saying he got an Abekas DDR and is ordering several PARS and will
probably get a MAX as well if it ever gets off the ground.
Don,
FRAME BY FRAME RULES! Today, Tomorrow and at least way into the next
year! <g> Its going to take a while longer before animators use DDR's
or an equivalent more than Frame by Frame (in one form or another.)
Its coming but your prediction is premature. <g> And the funny thing
is Paul is way ahead of you in moving in the "NEW" direction! So
how'd he get on your list in the first place? <BG> And my prediction
is, you're going to see several more permutations of "frame by frame"
along the lines of QuickPass before everybody goes DDR. Several
possibilities are already in the works. 🙂 But as I said before –
the revolution has started! And with a pretty damn good product,
already well tested before its release on the PC platform. Now you're
not going to argue with that, are you? <g>
No, I find the arguement ludicrous anyway.
Paul got on my list last November when he stated that frame by frame
would NEVER be replaced by real time recording. I have found that
Paul likes to cover all bases and sometimes tha way he states things
isn't exactly in line by his actions. Therefore I tend to go more by
what Paul does than what he says. Maybe I just don't understand his
inferences at times because on more than one occasion he and I were
in total agreement but it sounded by what he said he was
disagreeing. Maybe, my timing is off a little but I still say the
Abekas and the PAR will in one year make frame by frame animation
seem as inefficient as a straight key and morse code for
communications. That doesn't mean that it won't be used but it will
be dying, dying, dying.
I also predict that You being at the top of this list of mine will —
gradually– soften your position and obtain a PAR or similar device
and be off my list so that I won't have the opportunity to use a RUSH
"I told you so" tactic. <BG>
>> several more permutations of "frame by frame" along the lines of
QuickPass before everybody goes DDR. I still say that Quick Pass is
a temporary last ditch effort to offer diehards like you something to
hold onto. I believe I used the term "band aid" In my opinion the
Quick PASS is just like a "souped up version of the horse and buggy.
The PAR lays frames down many more than the Quick Pass. I guess if QP
is a horse and buggy with a race horse then PAR is a formula one race
car and the Abekas is a jet.
>> straight key and morse code
CW? Not that many people know what straight key means. <g>
Even at 15 I was switching to a Vibroplex bug. Know what that means? I think
you do.
Don, I didn't realise that Paul had made such a statement. That should
have put him at the top of the list! I mean after all I did agree
that this was the way things were going, just didn't agree with your
time line. And yes, I too think its a ludicrous arguement, but those
are the ones that are the most fun! <g>
As for buying a PAR, it'll never happen! I grew up eating video tape!
And believe me its a lot easier on the digestion system than a hard
disk!
The actual quote stated that JPEG compressed lossy realtime playback
devices like the PAR will not replace frame by frame animation. There
are way too many people who will not accept the quality loss
associated with the PAR. I still stand by that statement. We've
actually run the PAR playback for a number of our broadcast clients
and they all said no way. Hence the purchase of the Abekas and Acom.
If they had said, "hey we can't tell the difference", then quite
obviously we wouldn't have spent all the money on the DDR's.
Now obviously uncompressed playback devices that operate in realtime
are already prevelant throughout the marketplace, and they may well
play a part in killing frame by frame stuff. We'll be running both
units this year for different types of work. If I didn't have the
DDR's, I'd still be using the Diaquest units to achieve the quality
necessitated by my market.
>>As for buying a PAR, it'll never happen! I grew up eating video tape! And
believe me its a lot easier on the digestion system than a hard disk!
Me too however I find the MTBF much easier on my digestive system for a HD than
video tape especially frame by frame.
>>>>As for buying a PAR, it'll never happen!
Gee John I didn't know you were ready for retirement from this animation
industry. Isn't that what editors do when they don't accept new trends in the
industry… retire. GR&D
>>>>>>>>>>"As for buying a PAR, it'll never happen!"
John Ellis February 18, 1994
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"As for buying a PAR, it'll never happen!"
John Ellis February 18, 1994
These words may haunt you some day. I can see it now John's pride wont let him
buy a PAR for another 366 days just to say I was off in my prediction. Of
course, NEVER is longer than that ya know. BG
Now its your turn to qualify that statement of certainty.
Where is that #$%^&** UPS driver? I might have to wait til Monday, BOO HOO!
I'm beginning to get punchy, now, over this wait.
I have a list too! bwahaha! Revenge! bwahaha! I have wrote down two
hundred and fiftynine names, with addresses and phone numbers and
e-mail IDs and personal references and short stories and essays and
classified information and information that they even don't know
about theirselves and I'm going to use all the information when I has
power, which will be very soon, and I will corrupt policemans and
politicians (more?) and judges of the brilliant law system of the
united states in order to get all the people on the list to the
electric chair but first I'm going to research a more painful method
of death and fry all them for nine hours and…
well, I don't think so <g>
Did really Don said that he have a list of people he wants to taunt?
Is that the same Don that is living underwater in Florida?
Yes dear Ana, the same Don, who is "living underwater in Florida",
does have a list. John T. and myself are at the head of it, (I'm sure
John T. is wondering how he even got on it <g>), with Paul coming in
at 3rd position. Unusual for Paul, don't you think? Its got to be the
first time in his life he's been in third place for anything.<G> I
guess I should be flattered to be in such good company 🙂 Wait till
Don gets his PAR, I'll never hear the end of it. More predictions of
gloom and doom for frame by frame. ;-/
I always suspected you too had a list like that, you Mata Hari you!
John,
I've been busy, so I must've missed the "list" message. From Ana's message, I
understand it has somehting to do with taunting?
I'm actually on a person's list as someone to taunt? Who's? I'm third on the
list? What does the taunting revolve around?
Paul
You'll have to contact Don for that one. <g> I'm not sure about you,
but in my case it has to do with frame by frame vs. PAR type
recording. Don made a prediction awhile back that frame by frame
being obsolete within in a year, and reiterated his position to Alan
I. Don stated that he couldn't wait as there were some people on his
list that he basically wanted to be able to say "see I told you so"
to. So I called him on it. John T. responded I was stirring up
trouble, I pointed out what Don had put out there, and Don came back
with, John E. and John T. were at the head of the list, with you
apparently in 3rd place. <BG> He told Alan that he even went out and
bought Rush Limbaugh's book in order to be able to refine his
technique! <G> No joke. (He may have been joking, but he claimed
not.) I described this behavior as "taunting". Wouldn't you? <BG> Or
at least a serious attempt at it! I mean I can't stand Rush Limbaugh
and if I had to argue against someone who employs those kind of
tactics, I'd say that was TAUNTING! <g>
-JE
John,
Thanks for the clarification. I suppose that I'm on Don's list for the same
reason. I don't believe that frame by frame recording will be dead before
Christmas this year. The PAR just isn't up to that type of market saturation or
quality level.
I suppose that the "dead" scenario is extremely arbitrary. Don could
easily profess today that the technology is dead while tens of
thousands of serial controllers are still in use. Lots of people have
been professing that CG on IBM's doesn't really exist for the last 8
years or so. Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of people trudge on.
I would have to also say that while we're running two different makes of real
DDR's and will have at least a couple of PARs also, it may be kinda difficult
to taunt me. Or at least it would be pointless.
Paul
>>I would have to also say that while we're running two different
makes of real DDR's and will have at least a couple of PARs also, it
may be kinda difficult to taunt me. Or at least it would be
pointless.
John E. was very accurate in his description of the issue. I also
responded to him regarding your satus on the list but so you hear it
from the source I said you might not even rate a position on my
dinosaurs list because you are very progressive in the DDR recording
state of the art. With PAR for low end output and the Abekas for
high end why would you ever want to lay down frame by frame? So your
off the list. There!.
I don't know what the deciding factors or when we can say that frame by frame
will be truely obsolete as is an EGA card. Some suggestions would be: When a
forum member can't get $200 for his DQ-422 or $100 for soft VTR. on the used
market. The technology is nolonger manufactured. When considering the options
for recording animation it is nolonger considered an economical nor practical
approach. BTW isn't Truevision also working on a DDR system? I haven't heard
much about it lately.
Don:
Truevision is announcing their new DVR based Targa 2000 at NAB. From what I
hear, it'll be a $5,995 EISA board with all the bells and whistles. Basically,
kinda like a Matrox MAX, but with the ability to play Video for Windows AVI
clips full-screen at 30 fps. Should be totally cool.
Evan
Paul,
All good points, I'm just enjoying the joust! <g>
-JE
John,
>> I mean I can't stand Rush Limbaugh <<
BIG MISTAKE JOHN!…..BIG MISTAKE! <g>
Murph'
BTW…What is it you profess to not like about Mr. Limbaugh?
I never liked Joe Pine or that "Big Mouth" Guy.. yet, I found them
"entertaining" and often they made me look at things differently than I had
been used to…sometimes even discovering that I may have been wrong about
something…..Uh…Never Mind, I can see where this may be going and I don't
want to go there….."Been There, Done That!"
Later,
Murph'
Those "Dogma R Us" guys are pretty hard to take… Don't you think?
– G
"Dogma R Us" Actually I used to get really involved in these type of
arguments years ago…..I actually think I made Nixon's "Enemy's
List"….Something to do with Certified Letters to the White House
and War & TaxProtests….Bunch of Baby's <g>. Anyway I had a
Professor at U.W. that would tell us we didn't have to come to class
for 3 weeks but our entire grade would hinge upon his impression of
how we debated subjects we picked from a hat. You know the drill
"Death Penalty" Etc. type of topics….One little hitch…we wouldn't
know which side of the argument we had to successfully argue until we
walked in to his class 3 weeks later….Heh…Heh Kind of does a
number on your preconceived notions. Ever since then I could take
either side of an argument and most of the time win the
argument…even if I didn't originally beleive what I was defending.
So much we take as true or false or right or wrong is really a
personal Value Judgement and has little to do with reality in many
cases <g>. I do love to get in to it now and then
though……Heh…Heh… I've got both Liberal and Conservative
Freinds and have actually been able to stand between Em' and listen
to Em' Argue while they both were sure my comments support their
particular arguments…pretty strange stuff!<g> Murph'
I saw Mr. Rush, the pompous punster on CSPAN today, yeuecuckk! He's
the most disgusting spokesman the Conservatives ever had, well maybe
its a toss up between him and Patrick Buchanann. I much prefer the
wit and wisdom of William Buckley Jr. Heck, even Tom Selleck sounds
intelligent by comparison. <g>
John-E'
>> I much prefer the wit and wisdom of William Buckley Jr <<
You can say this!!! _AND_ call Rush Limbaugh Pompous!!! Get Real
John….I'd take Rush over Buckley anyday, Rush appeals to the
"Common-Sense" Crowd while Buckley is too damn pretensious to be
taken seriously by them. Buckley is an elitist and that also gets
him a lot of Psuedo Intellectials from both sides…..but you already
new that <g>. Murph'
I think Don has us (I didn't know I was up there, too) at the top of the list
of people to gloat over when (<g>) the PAR takes over the animation-to-tape
buisness and Diaquest goes chapter 11.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John, >> Diaquest goes chapter 11. << I can't beleive nobody from
Diaquest has responded to these types of statements….I actually
happen to beleive that Diaquest may be in trouble and is actually
fighting for their lives…I take no pleasure in that, as Diaquest
was certainly a pioneer (course BCD really helped Em <g> regarding
their first controller, etc.) and we all hate to see a pioneer fall
on hard times….however they were slow to respond to the changing
market and are extreemly overpriced. I see most of their products as
"patch's to thier product line" when they should really be responding
to the Current as well as future needs in a more timely manner. For
example they responded to lower priced controllers by offering SoftVTR
( I beleive that's what it's called ) all the while, Drastic
Technologies has completly redesigned the Hardware and Software to
run circles around Diaquest with a $495 List product. This is not
just Me saying this…look at what is actually happening in the
Marketplace…."I know of a couple people who would rather PAY $500.00
for an Animation Commandor by Drastic technologies then have somebody
give them a diaquest for free." (True Statement by David Avgikos)
The Digimation "In The Studio" Tapes company. So actually it isn't
so far fetched for Diaquest to go chapter 11. It's an accumulation
of these market forces and I'm sure that's what Don is referring to.
For What it's Worth Dept. Murph'
I never said Diaquest was going Chapter 11. I have no knowledge of
this and the reference to Diaquest was this: I said Diaquest's Quick
Pass is just a bandaid on a dying technology. They will either get
with the realtime recording technology or become history. Again I
never said they were going chapter 11. I have no knowledge of the
financials of the company. Where did you get this from? Who said I
said Diaquest was going chapter 11? Even if it were true I wouldn't
broadcast it, at least not until I sell my DQ-50P. <G>
Don, just to clarify, what you did say was that Diaquest was going to
be out of business with this new technology. Since then you have
expanded on your position or I should say clarified what you meant,
which is that if Diaquest doesn't get with the program they're going
to loose their position. I don't recall your saying Diaquest was
going Chapter 11 either.
Don,
>> Who said I said Diaquest was going chapter 11? <<
John E.
Later, Murph'
John, >> I always suspected you too had a list like that, you Mata
Hari you!<< John…John….John…. You've got to stop giving away
these National Security Secrets!! We'll be in Touch with you
shortly…don't leave town. Sincerly, The Thought Police.
>> We'll be in Touch with you shortly… don't leave town. <<
Not to worry Mr. Thought Policeman. If there's no freedom of thought in
America, there's no where to go.
-JE
Actually, there is no way to run… except sunny Spain.
Spain, everything under the sun 🙂
ana /krazy images
I have two list, one black, one white. One with the projected vendettas and the
other one with the… well, actually, it's empty. <g>
ana /krazy images
Ana-
>> I have two list, one black, one white. One with the projected vendettas and
the other one with ….. its empty. <g> <<
Ah you don't fool me, you're a soft touch. 🙂
-JE
Ana, Regarding your list of people, coruption, etc. etc……..
Uh…..You sound like an ideal Clinton Apointee! <g> Murph'
Beware! You know who is fourth in my list, James. <g>
ana /krazy images
Ana,
>> Beware! You know who is fourth in my list, James. <g> <<
Hey if I could make Nixon's list I can make yours! <BG>
Murph'
NO! I certainly won't predict the demise of a company but I will predict they
will have to get with the new technology to stay viable. I do recall making a
statement about Diaquest's questionable future though.
THE prediction was that by the end of the year that frame by frame recording to
video tape will be an obsolete, not economically feasable process to be
replaced almost entirely by PAR like technology and Abekas for high end. In
Jax alone, two Abekas DDR's were installed replacing the diaquest systems. And,
I know of three PAR systems going on line soon. (including my own) If this
means the demise of Diaquest then so be it. But, I'd guess Diaquest will get
with it sooner or later.
Don, as good as the PAR is, I still have my doubts about your prediction. First
off with QuickPass technology and the inherent quality of Beta SP, I don't
think you can write off frame by frame within a year. But I grant you, the
world of video is going digital and there's no stopping it. DDR's are going to
have to come down in price a bit more before they become as common as necessary
to make your prediction come true. I've called around San Diego County, which
is not exactly a mecca for production because of it proximity to Orange County
and L.A., and there is one A62 and one A66. On the other hand the production
medium is all Beta SP or D2. Tape! This doesn't prove a thing but its
interesting to note. And the hottest topic of conversation at ITVA meetings is
Digital Beta. FWIW
-JE
Hiya Don,
How ya doin'?
Yep, the old PAR certainly seems to be doing a nice job over here. Side-by-side
A/B comparisons with various levels of frame-by-frame quality are gonna take me
some time though. You'll probably be able to do some of these well before I do.
I've got the MC 2205A here to start with. I've been using block limits of over
240 pretty regularly, and the quality sure looks good so far. Although the
software won't tell you the average JPEG Q-factor you're getting per frame, I
would venture to guess that at 240 block limit, you're probably up around the
high teens somewhere, with 23 being the highest quality.
For people who *really* know/see/need the difference, the PAR probably won't
replace, say, Vista/LVR, Vista/Beta-SP or Abekas in it's present form, but
considering it's cost/quality ratio, the PAR, I feel, will be *heavily* used in
all kinds of animation work. And as the HD's get faster (and interleaved) the
amount JPEG compression used will diminish.
So render those frames!! I had about 700 waiting when the thing arrived, and
had a *total blast* setting it up and running the TGAs to it (about 4.5 seconds
apiece). Watching my first "made at home" high-quality animation was something
I've waited for since 1986 and an experience I'll never forget.
-Alan
Alan,
I understand that feeling. I felt the same as the first print went out from the
ColorEase last year. Real professional color in my own hands after years of
service bureaus, color problems, matching screens… ahh! 🙂
Now, let's go for the video 🙂
ana /krazy images
>>go for the video<<
Ain't technology grand?
-Alan
Genial, grandioso, apabullante, fenomena, alucinante 🙂 (and 3,456
spanish sinonism more <g>)
ana /krazy images
*whew*
-Alan