CompuServe Thread

Hi H.B., < Part 1 of 4 > With respect to your questions about Real 3D vs 3D Studio, here goes: >> I'm interested in your experiences with Real3D. Besides the modeller, what other areas impressed you or disappointed you? << First of all, the Amiga version is supposed to be more evolved and stable than the Windows version. I have only used the PC version as I don't own any Amiga computers any more. However, from my experience of heavily participating in their beta program, I'm not so sure that the Amiga version is "quite right" either. However, considering the extremely complex nature of this program and the current development team's attitude, I don't know if it will ever be "quite right"…… I could be wrong of course. There is a DEC Alpha early beta version which runs under NT which is supposedly 6 times faster than the Intel 486-66 version. There is supposedly a beta SGI version as well, haven't heard much about it though. The program is a real paradox of sorts, with MANY extremely impressive features yet many "holes" in the design, hard to imagine considering how well the positive features are implemented. It is my understanding that the development team is quite small, operates out of Finland, and has limited experience formally in animation software (as opposed to modelling, general mathematics, physics, etc.). However, they are quite sharp and innovative in many ways. Clearly, no program like this has previously been available on a "lower-end" desktop platform(s). Specifically, the user-designed interface is wonderful and unique. The hierarchial object-oriented design is generally good and somewhat unique. Many of the vast animation methods are very good and well-implemented. The renderer has many fine qualities, but is weak in some areas – not too slow for a PC raytracer though. Various features relating to peripheral functions such as undo levels, macros, display/rendering control, clip boxes, etc. are generally well implemented. The fact that the program uses parametrically defined entities for creation and rendering (if you want it to) is very nice, and results in very pleasing geometry/rendering as well as realitively small data structures. The boolean operations are outstanding and immediately calculated. As I said before, the uniform cubic B-Spline functions are the best and most complete that I've ever seen. On the negative side, the material creation/editing is a bit weak and under- developed. The camera controls are extensive (too complicated), but not-so-well thought out. The IK functions, as well as many other of the more advanced animation methods are incomplete, inconsistent, not fully implemented, buggy, and hard to control. Many require the RPL programming language for complete control, and the RPL language is very cryptic and buggy as well. Control for advanced sampling/filtering is limited and some of the light types are erratic in their characteristics. Procedural textures are not implemented well. Complex hierarchial set-ups required for advanced features are quirky. The display quality and redraw speed/logic is problematic. Animations involving collision detection take *FOREVER* to calculate for all but the simplest, most relaxed requirements. CD functions are inconsistent and buggy as well. There is not an adequate animation preview system, and no TRUE traditional keyframer. The program does not currently support many standard file formats, for example, it currently will not load a Targa file with or without alpha channel. Texture mapping methods need improvements. There is currently no DXF output, nor any other model format output, most unfortunate as this modeller would be highly desireable for most anyone to use and export data to much more evolved, stable, and complete animation and post-production app's such as 3D Studio. Perhaps the most disappointing area of the program is in the documentation. It is incomplete (especially for a program of this magnitude and originality), outdated, full of errors, etc.. The support on the BBS or from the developers is virtually useless. It was completely useless in my opinion, before I tried to "force" responsibility upon them. In the process, I believe I made them upset with me, however also improved things a bit. The developers cannot take constructive criticism well. They seem to only be interested in programming what interests them, not neccessarily what is needed. They seem completely satisfied with their present product and revenues, with no motivation to make neccessary improvements/changes to *really* have a chance to seriously compete with a program like 3DS, w/r/t the *OVERALL* picture. Besides the very fine uniform B-Spline functions (no NURBS) which I had previously mentioned, the program offers an amazing array of other fine modelling, editing, and animation tools. Considering the sheer depth of this program, plus the general knowledge of 3D app's which someone in your position must posess, the most efficient way of me attempting to relate a thorough description is to start by simply listing *SOME* of the program control hierarchy – and believe it or not, the following list does not transverse the full depth of a given hierarchy: CREATE VISIBLES Polygon Pyramid Circle Ellipsoid Polyhedron Cut Pyramid 3P Circle Cut Ellipsegment Polymid Reg. Polygon Cylinder Hyperbol Cut Polymid Reg. Polyhedron Cone Cut Hyperbol Rectangle Reg. Polymid Cut Cone Cube Reg. Cut Polymid Sphere SECTORS Circle Cylinder Cone Cut Cone Ellipsegment Cut Ellipsegment Hyperbol Cut Hyperbol COMPOUND TOOLS Lathe Circular Subdiv. Round.Cir.Subd. Sharp Circular Rounded Circular Conical Conical Subdv. Rectangular Rect.Subdv. Rect. Conical Rect.Conc.Subdv.Rounded Polygon Round.Polyhedron Ellipsed Polygon Ellips.Polyhed. Join Primitives Object Pixel Tool FRACTALS Landscape Trees BOOLEAN Or And And Not And w/ Paint And Not w/Paint Rethink Rethink All Unthink (All) PARTICLES Skeleton Volume STRUCTURE Level Link Group Method (Start/End/Phase/Frequency/Time) PATH ROTATION SWEEP SIZE STRETCH DIRECTION MOV&DIR CONTROL CURVES SIMPLE SKEL. SKELETON INV KINEMATIC MORPHING OPEN MORPH.CLOSED TRANSFORM WAVE RADIAL FORCE DIRECTED FORC.TANGENT FORCE COLLISION INT COLLISION FRICTION CREATION PROCESSOR RPL NOISE ATTRIBUTES CONTROLS Attribute Offset Axis Coordsys Open Line Closed Line Circular Line B-Spline CtrlP B-Spline Knot B-Spline Curve B-Spline Closed B-Spline Circ. B-Spline Helix Skeleton (for IK) BUILD FREEFORM Mesh Torus Coplanar Orthogonal Rotate Swing/Move Swing/Size Build from Curves Mesh-PixelTool Skin Curve Trim Curve Parallel C/S Extrude Triset from Mesh Font Curve Ext. MODIFY LINEAR Move Extend Deform Move COG Size 2D Size 3D Stretch Rotate Mirror Shear Rot&Ext STRUCTURE Cut Copy Paste Delete Duplicate Swap PROPERTIES Name Attributes Alpha Chann. Tags Animation Replace Tags COG Direction Velocity Spin Size Phys.Attr. Light.Attr. Skeleton Attr. COLOR Current Pallette Named Color BEND LOCAL Move 2D Move 3D Move Radial Size 2D Size 3D Size Radial BEND GLOBAL Move 2D Move 3D Move Radial Size 2D Size 3D Size Radial BEND ENDPOINT Move 2D Move 3D Move Radial Size 2D Size 3D Size Radial BEND LINEAR Move 2D Move 3D Move Radial Size 2D Size 3D Size Radial BEND CIRCULAR Move 2D Move 3D Move Radial NON-LINEAR Move Size Stretch Rotate Twist Parabola Linear Circle Sine Curve Set Tool SPECIAL Inv Kinematic Parallel ShrinkWrap Cylidrical S/W Spherical S/W Normal S/W COG's Size 2D Size 3D Stretch Extend Rotate Mirror Shear Rot&Ext ABOUT COG's Size 2D Size 3D Stretch Extend Rotate Mirror Shear Rot&Ext FREEFORM Reparameterize Move Knotpoint Concatenate Swap Dir Open/Close Type Invert Remap Surf.to Curves Distribute Assign Exchange U&V Snap To Delete Insert Break Set Start Triple Ends DRAW MODE Accurate Bounding Box EXTRAS VECTORS Push Pull Enter Clear Add Subtract Average Average All Cross Prod. Eval.Current Define Eval. Length Eval. Lasso Select Lasso DeSelect Push Selected Pull All UNDO STATISTICS REFRESH ALL Wireframe Raytrace CANCEL ALL EVALUATE Curve Length Parameter SELECT OBJECTS FREE IMAGES TOGGLE TITLE BAR SETTINGS CLIP BOXES Active Select DeSelect RPL VIEW RESOLUTION Rot-Pos-Zoom GENERAL Aspect Ratio Vector Format Float Format Macro Filename Drag Delay UNDO Active Set Depth Clear REFRESH None Current All OPERATION LEVEL Active Depth CREATION Query Lev.Name Qry.Prim.Name Auto Current Auto Selected Auto Index PATHS ALPHA CHANNEL ATTRIBUTES CREATE PATH TYPE Polygonal B-Spline Circle Interpolate Extrapolate Closed EVAL Non-Periodic Periodic Define Phase DIRECTION TYPE Polygonal B-Spline Circle Interpolate Extrapolate Closed EVAL Non-Periodic Periodic Define Phase ROTATION Normal About COG's COG's SWEEP Normal About COG's COG's STRETCH Normal About COG's COG's SIZE Normal About COG's COG's FORCES RADIAL Gravity Anti-Gravity Attraction Repulsion Sinusoidal Strength Formula RPL DIRECTED Strength Constant F/(1+Distance) Formula RPL TANGENTIAL No Centrifugal Constant F/(1+Distance) F/(1+Dist Sq.) Strength Formula RPL FRICTION Constant Quadric Strength Formula RPL NOISE Velocity X,Y,Z Spin X,Y,Z Octaves CONTROL EDIT TIME LINE CANCEL VIEW TYPE Parallel Perspective Seperate I/O Cam Fly Cam Pos INPUT PLANE Set XY Set YZ Set XZ Obj -> I-Plane ViewCam->IPlane Roll XYZ Hor.Lock Vert.Lock Reset HotPoint H/P Foward H/P Backward CAMERA ViewCam->Camera Create Camera Define Camera Camera View VIEWCAM Reset All Reset Scale Position Pos&Zoom In Pos&Zoom Out Center Auto Focus Set XY Set YZ Set XZ Set Custom Define X Define Y Cam->ViewCam IPlane->ViewCam ViewCam Control GRID Select Create Modify Reposition Delete Visible Snap To RENDER WINDOW BOXES SELECTED SETTINGS Mode Dithering Output Ambient BG BG Grad. Environ. Env.Grad. Auto Exp. BG Image Env.Mapping Field Render No BG a/a Color Output File Brightness Overlight Recursions Dither Scale X Res Y Res Anti-aliasing Light Samp. Materials Samp. Subdivisions Width Heighth Pixel H/W DOF Scale DOF Strength Mem. Useage EXPORT RPL RENDER HIERARCHY DRAWING SETTINGS (Curve Subdiv., Surface Subdiv., Aspect ratio) Draw V Render Wire Evaluation No Refresh Ray Trace Controls Coords Ref.CoordSys Ctrl.Poly Curve Knots Mappings Names Busy Req. Abs.Grid BOXES Define Modify Delete Delete All SAVE WINDOW DEBUG TOOLS SIZE WINDOW CONTROL WINDOW LIGHT SOURCES Point Line Wall Spot Beam MAPPING Default Parallel Cylinder Sphere Disk PROJECT OBJECTS Insert Save Replace Font Loader PROJECT New Insert Save Replace Insert Sections Save Sections Replace Sections MATERIALS WINDOW Name Text S-Map UVWH Spline Map Color Map Bump Map Transp.Map Brill.Map Shadow Map Clip Map Transp.Color Unshaded Smooth Exclusive Scope Mask Specularity Spec.Bright. Brilliance Transparency Turbidity Turbid Sat. Refraction Roughness Dither Bump Heighth Effect Handler Prog. X-Freq. Y-Freq. Transp.R Transp.G Transp.B Tile XY Flip XY Grade XY HANDLERS MAPPING –> Expression Definition Formula RPL Tilt Waves Swap XY Noise SCOPE –> Expression Definition Formula RPL Sphere Inv.Square Inv.Exp. Local Temporal Noise BUMP –> Expression Default Formula Waves Bumps RPL Noise COLOR Default Formula RPL Bright Waves Granite Noise Marble INDEX Definition Formula RPL PingPong DELETE DELETE ALL INSERT SAVE REPLACE MACROS Record Execute Curr. Execute Named Replace Curr. Spread Curr. Curr.to Named Named to Curr. NAMED COLORS Select Create Modify Delete Insert Save Replace WINDOWS Select View RPL Tool Anim. Pallette Measuring Sys. Mat.Preview Color Close ENVIRONMENT Insert Save Replace Save Screen Screen Pall. Exit < Part 3 of 4 > Like I said, this isn't nearly everything but my fingers and eyes are killing me at this point ! <g> >> Would you recommend it on any level as a adjunct (or competitor) to 3DS? << As a competitor, no. Considering the *whole picture*, from "soup to nuts", involving everything required to go out to tape, 3DS (which I'm not saying is perfect) blows this program or any other "desktop" program away. With the upcoming IPAS 3 routines mentioned here, my statement becomes even more concrete. Please bear in mind, I am no long-established 3DS fanatic, I am just now getting in to actually using the program, although I've owned it for quite a while. I do however know enough about the program and all competing programs to make these statements I believe. As an augmentation for use *with* 3DS or other programs – absolutely ! If someone could develop a strong, well-implemented converter from R3D to 3DS, the combination would be incredible. I believe John Foust misinterpreted my comments here regarding this matter. As he replied, most people like (me) have dumped R3D….. this is *ONLY* because there are no model converters available, and the rest of the program has problems galore. I've been meaning to get back to him on this. I, as well as many other people would use the combination I'm sure if such a product existed and was of the highest quality. And to boot, you'd have the other program features which can be used to some degree and probably will get better with time. >> Have you considered gathering your thoughts and posting a review? << Well, uh… I guess I just did. W/R/T gathering my thoughts, this was knocked out in a big hurry, probably has many ommissions, and was not proofread – so my apologies to you for that. Also, I hope I have not "done wrong" by posting this extensive reply to this message base. If I have, my apologies again, and to the powers that be – please feel free to remove it if you so desire. I hope this has been of some use/help to you H.B., and I look foward to speaking with you again in the future. p.s. – Hey Jonas ! Would you mind including everything here not already incorporated in 3DS in the WishList <BG> JUST KIDDING ! SORRY