Driving Simulation
53 messages in this thread
Just like me, but X-Wing just got me. I'm a Larry Holland fanatic. At
the beginning, X-Wing could be difficult, but then it makes you an
addict. Just see that widescreen version of StarWars in your
Laserdisk first, go to your computer and fire your FlightStick!…
well, I guess that you will have to do it next month.
I'll buy some more games next month – but I need to spend more time
with Strike Kommander to look at the graphics. There's a new one
coming soon by Novalogic that's a tank simulator – looks a lot like
Komanche, but needs 8mb of RAM minimum!!! I'm certainly going to get
it just to look at the graphics and it'll be a nice box for my shelf,
too <g>. BTW lurkers and forum police, this is all relevant to 3ds
users because many of these games use 3ds for all or part of the
graphics.
>>BTW lurkers and forum police, this is all relevant to 3ds users
because many of these games use 3ds for all or part of the graphics.
<<
I know you're probably joking, Martin, but this is a great point.
I'm starting to get so cheesed off about all this thread fascism that
I'm afraid to answer a message unless the holy lord above shows me a
sign that it's alright <g>. Jeez, I guess now we'll have to move
this topic to another section. Anyone up for musical threads?
I just saw that there is a company called "La cie" Any relation.
<we'll have to move this topic to another section. Anyone up for
musical threads?> Thought I'd play <g>.
Hmmm… La Cie? Nope, no relation. What buisness are they in?
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John:
>> Anyone up for musical threads?
Sure! Anyone try Roland's new RAP-10 MIDI sound card and 16-track
Audio Toolworks software? Their two page ad in December's AV-Video
is pretty impressive…
We are looking for something that will allow analog recording to hard
disk, basic editing, add audio sweetening tracks, and then chase
SMPTE for synched recording into a video editing suite. We don't
want much! Any ideas? Jonas?
PS – John, this _is_ what you meant by "musical threads", isn't it?
<bg>
I've got a fellow up here who does exactly what you're talking about
for a living. I will ask him what package/platform he uses. I'm
going in for some recording early this week, so keep your "ears" open
<g>.
Thanks, John!
Have you checked out some software called SAW (software audio
workshop?) It allows realtime recording at CD Quality or higher, 4
Tracks, vari-pitch, smpte options, you name it! It is a very nice
looking beastie.
Peter:
>> SAW
No, I haven't seen it. Your description sounds great, though! Do you know the
manufacturer, or any way of finding out more information?
TIA,
Greg Pyros
I will dig out the brochure tonight for saw and check the details…If you
throw me your fax number I could fax it across to you (about 6 pages)
Peter
Peter:
Thanks! The FAX is (714) 833-8655. Appreciate it!
Greg Pyros
John,
>> I know you're probably joking, Martin, <<
Oh, it's hilarious <GGG>. But I was being serious (and sarcastic)
because now I'll have to add an extra paragraph to all of my messages
to justify why I said what I did. That should bump up the forum
traffic volume even more <G>.
>> That should bump up the forum traffic volume even more <G>.
I'm sitting here with 1565 messages to look thru. Aaaaaarrrghhhhh!!!
David,
>> I'm sitting here with 1565 messages to look thru. Aaaaaarrrghh <<
I know, I know. I'm having problems keeping up with the traffic. It often takes
me 2 hours to go through a day's messages. I blame a lot of that on CIM, which
is very slow. I may have to upgrade to TAPCIS, but I'd need to try and remember
my password to do that.
>> I'd need to try and remember my password to do that.
When I switched software, I had no clue what my old password was. If
you call the CIS 800-number for customer service, they can assign you
a new password.
David,
>> I had no clue what my old password was. If you call the CIS 800-number for
customer service, <<
great tip! I'll make a note of it. CIM is just too slow for this amount of
asoft traffic 🙁
Martin,
<< many of these games use 3ds for all or part of the graphics >>
This is one of my favorite threads..I keep hearing that
"content providers" are needed to fill that future 500 channel
void looming in the future. Keeping track of quality animations
in the gaming field is *real* interesting for me.
thanks martin and ana.
jonas[adesk]
Jonas,
I'm not convinced that the 500 new channels will cause a lot of 3d work to
suddenly appear. I mean where's the money going to come from? I tend to think
that to fill the channels the quality levels will have to drop significantly
and the amount of money available for graphics/animation will be peanuts.
However, game development for Sega and Genesis type machines is a much more
mature industry with plenty of money being thrown at it. The 32-bit video-game
platforms (3DO, Atari Jaguar, and other new ones) are the reason for 3d work
being required.
I have to disagree. While I don't necessarily think there will be an
explosion in the 3D market, I believe there will be many
opportunities for 3D work similar to that done in games (by games
developers) for programming on "interactive" channels.
>>I mean where's the money going to come from?<<
Advertisers, cable subscribers.
I believe the increased advertising space and station ID's will
provide work for good 3D animators. Although programming often
sucks, station ID's and commercials (to a lesser degree) seem to
stick to some sort of standard for graphics. Also, while I'm sure a
large percentage of channels will be filled with extremely cheap
caca, there will be a number of channels with higher standards and
higher budgets.
It seems to me there is a good bit of work out there now, and adding
fourhundredsomeodd channels is certainly not going to reduce it.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John,
>> Advertisers, cable subscribers. <<
Right now these people can't afford my services, so why would they be
able to when there's more channels. The standards will go down and
there will be even less money for animation. In my experience with
local cable advertisers, they will balk at paying more than $100-$500
for a fully animated cable commercial (the production costs, not the
advertising costs). If you are willing to work for that kind of money
then you may be in like Flynn/Flint <g>. However, if there are
Sega/Nintendo type games on the interactive channels than that may
spur on games development, but otherwise the picture's gloomy, IMHO.
bursting too many bubbles ….
The local cable channels on this side of the U.S. average around
$10,000 to $15,000 per commercial, if it's all animation. Maybe you
should move. 🙂
>>The local cable channels on this side of the
>> U.S. average around $10,000 to $15,000 per
>> commercial
No kidding! Sometimes I get alarmed when I hear these kinds of
comments. Then I remember that in any sort of 'real' commercial (the
sort that has an art director, a script, etc.) there's too much money
involved for my sort of client (or production house) to go with
someone fly by night who charges $300. These 'local cable'
advertisers must just want to get a camcorder and have their
girlfriend talk about the product, for that price. I mean, a half
hour in an editing suite might complete a job like that, and you're
already in for $300. What do they pay for the on-air time? What do
their present commercials look like? I guess if they pay little and
are satisfied with home-movie appearance, I'm off to greener
pastures…
Yeah, there are always cheapo productions, and some of them aren't even that
terrible, but it's a whole different ball game. I've just won a contract away
from a company that was advertising through the station they bought time on
(getting the production dirt cheap, too), because I could offer something nicer
and more effective. Some people do understand that you get what you pay for.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
>>I've just won a contract away from a company
>> that was advertising through the station they
>> bought time on (getting the production dirt cheap,
>> too), because I could offer something nicer and
Congratulations – glad to hear it.
>> more effective. Some people do understand that
>> you get what you pay for.
Yeah, that's true. A lot of the ones that don't (or don't care about
end quality that much anyway) are not worth the trouble. I can't
afford to have my name associated with junky work I did 'quick and
dirty' because there was no budget. I just can't do it.
I'm pretty excited about this job. Since I'm producing the entire
commercial (it's 99% animation) I get to call a majority of the
creative shots, and I like that.
Paul,
>> The local cable channels….. average around $10,000 to $15,000 per
commercial, if it's all animation. <<
Well, Southern California is in a deeper recession than the rest of the
country. That amount of money sounds too high for local cable advertisers
around here. Move to East Coast? Unlikely. My 5-year plan is to stay in games
on the U.S. west coast until I'm sufficiently established to setup a games
developing company in Australia.
I've never had an advertising production company or other cable/broadcast
client even imagine in their wildest dreams that they could get a single frame
of animation for less than a few thousand bucks (at the VERY least). Almost
all of my buisness has been cable and broadcast, and I've been payed quite well
considering my company has only been in existence for a short time. After
seeing your demo, I think you are worth a ***hell*** of a lot more than what
those cheapskates were offering, and I can tell you there is plenty of decent
paying broadcast work out there if you look for it. Even a non-profit
documentary prod. co. offered me more than what you're talking about, and they
had the worst budget I've seen in a long time. While games companies do offer
decent money to animators (I'm checking that market out, too), there is still
more money in broadcast and film, and I'll bet my hat on that <g>.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John,
the local cable advertisers in my area are really hurting and the last thing
they can spend money on is some fancy schmanzty commercial. Especially when
cable companies offer to throw in a production for practically nothing if the
advertiser buys a block of time from them. In my early days I did a fully
animated 30 second, 3d commercial for $6000 (I got $3000) and I didn't charge
nearly enough. For the work I put in I really should have got 3 times that –
and that was a big spending client. Doug Wolfgram (a forum regular from the old
days) told me there was no money in cable commercials in our area (Orange
County, CA) and I didn't believe him at first. After a year I realised he was
right.
>> While games companies do offer decent money to animators (I'm checking that
market out, too), there is still more money in broadcast and film, and I'll bet
my hat on that <g>. <<
And I'll bet (for my situation at least) that there's more money in games than
broadcast or film <G>, having tried them all. I'm by no means getting rich, but
I'm making more money than I _ever_ have by working in games. And that's
compared to any of my former careers. More importantly, I enjoy the work too
and I really couldn't stand chasing clients and going to numerous meetings for
small-budget jobs.
Jaded and proud of it….
Martin
I don't know if you got my cryptic reply to this message or not… it was a…
uh… accident <g>.
What I meant to say (and hopefully deleted before anyone downloaded it) was
that this must be a phenomenon in your area, because I really haven't run into
that. Sure, there are el cheaposkates everywhere, but there are also plenty of
bigger budget advertisers out there. I guess SF is more of a production area
than Orange Co., but I would have figured the proximity to LA would counter
that.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John,
I agree about SF probably being better than Orange County. I haven't tried to
prospect into the LA area of cable advertising. I get calls quite often about
doing local cable commercials but invariably my prices are much too steep for
the local advertisers budget. I had a bit more luck with corporate product
visualization for training/sales tapes – not enough to make a living at,
though.
Bad market. How depressing.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
Your numbers sound high for Jax Cable. Average commercial is $600 with
paintbox. for 30 seconds done on 3/4 Umatic. They don't accept anything else
except grudgingly SVHS. No money in it here. Best I've found is corporate.
Pays fair but is repeat and steady. Just landed a nice contract today for a
months worth of work, mixed in with my walkins. I, like you, hate selling this
stuff. Would rather be doing it.
Don,
your experiences sound similar to mine: cable thumbs down, corporate thumbs up
(but not enough steady work for me). I've had best luck with entertainment in
general, but games in particular.
>>Your numbers sound high for Jax Cable.
>> Average commercial is $600 with paintbox.
If the client is happy with paintbox commercials, they wouldn't hire a
3D Animator anyway, would they? It seems that we have to sell the
extra cost of 3D stuff as 'stun-value' for highter cost. I'm sure
that most cable advertisers are too small time to really do business
with. However, any major ad firm might be worth approaching – I've
picked up a lot of work subcontracting for the creative group that
does industrial videos for Trucking companies. And if they're doing
big, broadcast stuff, all the better! That's often where one might
find the cable ad person who aspires to better ads. And I don't do
scripts, live shoots, actors and stuff like that, so I'd have to work
alongside those people anyway in a big production.
So right you are. I have avoided for the most part the cable
advertisers as there are several freelancers around here putting
together simple spots for as low as $50. It only commercials I do
get are for those larger companies that have a budget for a complete
range of advertising. I'm doing one right now that started as a 5
min video, 2-30 second spots, and a trifold print piece. I'm doing
the complete video/talking head/animation and voice over etc. as
well. I find these package deals are what alot of companies are
looking for. If I only get the animation it usually is for a post
house that does the rest anyway. I found most industrial clients
arn't too savy on how to use animation and need the assistance of the
complete video producer.
John,
Excuse me for butting in, but we are a very young company and are wanting to
develope a demo. We have never seen anybody elses demo, we are based in
Oklahoma, and are wandering what a good demo would look like? Is there anyway
that we could see one? How could we go about getting some? We have been doing
work for a small manufacturing company and it is getting ready to dry up so we
are going to go out and do some advertising. Any help appreciated.
Jay Savill
Cyber Simulations, Inc.
I think the Autodesk 3D Studio Siggraph '93 reel is a good example, in
a way (obviously no single person could produce a reel like that, but
the editing and pace is good), and it's easy to get. Just call a
multi media dealer and they'll get you one (unless that deal has
expired). The main thing is to pick what you think is your best work
for whatever market you're shooting for, and try to get enough stuff
together so it doesn't fly by in a few seconds, but doesn't put the
viewers to sleep, either. Snappy editing, a few good transitions,
and a nice soundtrack help. I'm still learning, so I don't mean to
come off like an exspurt er nothin' <g>, but I've been lucky enough to
see a few good reels, and pick up some pointers there.
Thanks for the info, will call my dealer and see what I can get. What
is the average length of a good demo?
I don't know about "average", but mine is around 4.5 minutes of solid
animation. I would consider extending it another couple of minutes,
but not too much more than that.
Jaguar, 3DO and Saturn… that will require a lot of better quality graphics
and animation. 16.7 million colors and 640×480… That will take longer time
than the usual Targa stuff to the animator. And as more and better animators
get in the business, the public will start to be more exigent. However, I also
think that this is not a very important issue since most of the art and
animations in games out there are so bad that couldn't be worst 🙂 However,
other computer animators will appreciate the change <g>. It's like advertising
and design. There are things that are not apreciated by "The Crowd", but which
makes other designers and creatives krazy.
ana /krazy images
Ana,
>> Jaguar, 3DO and Saturn… that will require a lot of better quality graphics
and animation. 16.7 million colors and 640×480 <<
actually not necessarily. These systems may "advertise" 640×480 with 16.7m
colours but that's marketing double talk. That would be a best-case scenario
and to get a fast-moving game you often need to settle for 256-colour or
16-colour palletes for each polygon and sprite. The backgrounds, which don't
move much, may have 16m colours. Also the resolution is still generally
320×200. The new Sony machine is claimed to be 3 times as fast as the 3DO,
although I'll believe it when I see it.
I know their marketing and advertising and the real possibilities of the
machine, Martin. What I mean is that this give animators a lot of freedom
(without a doubt, better than anything that a PC or a Mac or a Sega/Nintendo
could do) to make REAL good things. Besides, the 3DO is pretty amazing for
24bit video. Sprites are one thing, but I'm talking about full screen 640×480.
Did you see the 3DO version of Dragons Lair? That's the real Dragons Lair
arcade. And if you remember it, it is not a very static game. Indeed, it is a
krazy arcade! I think that they are releasing it for the ReelMagic, but I don't
know if it will be 24bit too.
ana /krazy images
There are 2 types of games on 3DO/SegaCD type CDROM based machines:
1) the ones that stream video off the CDROM (Dragon's Lair [cool], Mad
Dog McCree, etc) 2) the ones that load all bitmaps, geometry data,
and programs from CDROM into DRAM/VRAM for each "level" or "world".
(Crash and Burn, Total Eclipse, NHL Hockey, my game etc) Then you
play the game out of VRAM and the only thing coming off the CD is
music, or the movies in between the "worlds".
in type 1 you could have very nice graphics in 16 or 24 bit,
especially on a double or triple speed CD-rom with Cinepak, or better
still, MPEG. This is because it is pre-rendered. In type 2, you are
limited to maybe 2mb VRAM and so bitmaps must be very small and
efficient if you want lots of them (often 64×64 with 16 colours or
256 colours). They are also small so they can be rendered in
real-time (20 – 30 fps). Polygons per frame at 30fps is possibly the
most significant measure of type 2 games.
I never new most of this stuff until I started this project, but now
I'm getting a whole new education 😉
Althought the realtime capabilities of the 3DO are awesome, you are
absolutely right in your observations. However, animation and 24bit
art can be used too between the arcade sequences. Like Crash'n'Burn
for example. BTW, have you seen MYST for MPC computers. Quicktime
based, but I didn't check it <yet>. It has a nice box too. Talking
about boxes, you have to check out the box of Hand of Fate, Kyrandia
Fables 2. First time I have seen a good neat design for a game box.
Things are happenig in the games industry, but still is has not
reached any level of maturity. I hate people searching for bad
understament of realism picturing rotoscoped actors in an awful way.
gee… most of the guys in the game industry doesn't even now what
complementary colors are. Fortunately, people like you will change
the face of gaming and convert all this gang of irreverent Beavis and
Butthead tasteless teenagers to a new world of high quality design,
armony and anarchy 😉 Well, most of this is nosense, but you get the
idea <g>
ana,
<< great insights into the current gaming scene >>
thanks..
jonas[adesk]
<< great insights into the current gaming scene >>
Thank you, but it's not that great 🙂 I allways have had in mind doing a
high-end game but never find a great programmer that can do what I have in
mind… well, at least, not with enough time to embark in such a project. Then
sell it to a big company and be a billionare for the rest of my life! <g> Just
kidding, this is more closed to sci-fi than to reality. I am getting now in the
CD-ROM world. Who knows, maybe after this I could be able to do something…
hey, what about doing a kind of graphic adventure among the members of this
forum. It could be something like "The Marx Brothers in the <pause> THE YOST
HOUSE!". It could run only in 24 bits and will be targeted for 3ds users. Hey,
maybe Autodesk could sponsor it and use the CD to show game developers what can
be done with a great program and tons of talent 🙂 I can see it! All the music
band, Waits, Vais and Satrianis in the forum making jazzie, rock and blues
soundtrack. Everyone developing meshes and materials and a director for the
whole game/movie. Some scriptwriters, tons of black humor and wild comments
from the regulars in the forum, the interface designer and a few programmers.
Gee, could it be fun or not? 🙂
Now if everyone of us can find enough free time. What do you think, Sirs? (I
have to stop watching MST3K <g>)
ana /krazy images
Ana,
>> However, animation and 24bit art can be used too between the arcade
sequences. >>
exactly, and this is possibly where the exciting part can be for 3d animators:
the intro and segue movies.
>> BTW, have you seen MYST for MPC computers. Quicktime based, but I didn't
check it <yet>.<<
I have probably seen it on the shelf at my local software retailers, but
haven't played it yet (nice box). I still haven't explored 7th Guest enough
yet. Buying all these games and not playing them is getting pretty expensive –
I need to get a job reviewing them for magazines <g>.
>> Fortunately, people like you will change the face of gaming and convert all
this gang of irreverent Beavis and Butthead tasteless teenagers to a new world
of high quality design, armony and anarchy ;)<<
Wow! Thanks, I don't know what to say. I don't think I'm the saviour that you
might think I am. However, I do want to work on games that will be noted for
being ground-breaking, rather than just "one-of-the-crowd". If I could do that
for a few years, I'd be very happy. I'm playing with the new Atari Jaguar this
weekend, which is supposed to be 64-bit but is actually 2 32-bit processors
working in parallel. Cybermorph is the game that comes with it and the graphics
are not too good, although it is a true 3d game – Total Eclipse on the 3DO is a
better game of this genre. Another game I'm trying on the Jaguar is "Trevor
McFur" which is basically "Defender" (an old arcade game) reworked with new
graphics – it's not 3d, but the graphics are quite reasonable. Unfortunately,
many of the games for the new platforms are just old products somewhat
repackaged or simply ported over.
That's all for now, folks.
>I need to get a job reviewing them for magazines <g>.
Get two <g>
ana /krazy images
Check out some of the games on the new ATARI JAGUAR 64 bit system.
One in particular looks very 3D Studio (Trevor Mcfur in the Crescent galaxy! no
less). Also, as it is a new machine with quite a few developers signing up,
maybe you could interest Atari in passing on some 3D Studio info brochures
whatever to their developers (for their own good of course!)
Most of the games I have seen for it are 3D Rendered looking thingies, in 24
bit colour! all screaming around the screen at high speed.
It would be interesting to see if any of them are using studio.
Spencer Lindsay (from Atari Games) is a 3DS user and frequents this
forum. Perhaps he could tell you which games they made 3DS models
for.
Thanx for the Info!
Peter