#When headers go bad/2
21 messages in this thread
Paul – we have a section for "chatter", and that's where this message
is now. There is no question of anybody policing the message base,
but if a thread wanders long and far from its subject header, it's
not really fair to the rest of the membership who can't afford to
download and read absolutely everything but rely on headers to mark
the messages they want to read. Nobody cares if a message wanders *a
bit*…
I thought this thread was dead, but since you've decided to bring it
back up, I will once again say that it's not going to happen. If I
write a message about a piece of equipment and happen to mention the
manufacturer of the piece of equipment, or comment upon the state of
the industry and the particular piece's place in said industry, or
whatever, then that message may very well take on numerous responses
dealing with multitudes of various facets. Do you actually expect
everyone who responds to start a seperate thread with a different
header simply because I may have labled my original message with the
name of the piece of equipment. The second someone responds about the
industry at large, they're no longer talking specifically about the
piece of equipment. BUT …. their response is directly related to my
original post. So if someone wants to find the original message from
me that sparked the response how do they find it? Certainly not from
the thread, because you'd have us destroy the structure.
It is "VERY" unreasonable to expect people to change headers when
responding.
Changing the way this forum currently operates, and simultaneously
destroying the "synergy" that exists here, would cause a large number
of headaches for the forum regulars who regularly devote the time and
monetary commitment to keep this forum thriving. The forum membership
that pops on every so often to grab the thoughts and insights of the
forum, simply have to realize that the forum as a whole is a stream
of constant thoughts and opinions, and if they make the decision to
pop on for a few seconds ever so often, then they will simply have to
weed through the message base to find that little tidbit of info that
they desire.
I feel that Jonas has done a good job of taking important threads and
editing them down to cliff notes, zipping them up and putting them in
the download directories. If someone pops on the forum, to quickly
grab info ,then they should look towards the download directories for
neatly packaged info.
All of the forum regulars make it a habit to post new threads with
proper headers into the proper forums, if a thread goes south for an
extended period of time then we also usually move the thread to the
forum that best fits the new context of the thread. That is done. and
will no doubt to continue to be done. That doesn't seem to be the
issue. The issue stems from the fact that this forum is a roundtable
discussion and some people would prefer it if the forum regulars
would not only devote lots of time and money towards answering the
questions on the forum, but simultaneously keep the responses in the
forum of a white paper.
It's not going to happen.
No-one can expect to jump on the forum for a few minutes every once
and a while and get a neatly packaged thread containing just the info
that they want to read about. This forum is a living entity, not the
6 o'clock news and certainly not cliff notes.
Paul – what is it that's "not going to happen"?
You're probably really going to hate this, but perhaps I ought to
explain what the TM in my CIS address means. It stands for
ThreadMaster, a half-silly name TPTB thought up when they authorized
us about three years ago on the old ADESK Forum. Other forums call
people with similar functions Section Leaders or Assistant Sysops.
The function of a TM is to gather interesting threads into files that
can be placed in the data libraries–and it sounds like Jonas is
doing an admirable job at that–and… making sure that messages are
placed in the proper sections and threads don't stray to far from
their topic.
There are about a dozen of us although very few seem to visit ASOFT;
most of us hang out in the ACAD Forum. We're not paid by Autodesk,
but we do have free flags in ACAD and ASOFT. We may have started out
in ACAD, but since the free flag holds here too, I'm assuming that
Autodesk thinks we should be doing our job here as well.
I said it before, but I guess I need to say it again… NO ONE WANTS
TO RESTRICT YOU OR CENSOR YOU!!! All we ask is that you help us keep
the forum running smoothly and avoid complaints from other members by
a) starting threads in the appropriate sections and b) changing the
header and/or section if the subject strays too far from its header.
I counted over 30 messages on *this* topic under the header about
Summa graphics tablets. If I were a member who couldn't afford to
read everything, and had to go by the headers to decide what I wanted
to download, I'd have been mightily p***ed off to read all the stuff
under the Summa header.
Threading messages seems to work fine on the ACAD Forum, and I'm not
sure how having tons of different topics in one giant thread rather
than in a bunch of different, descriptively headered ones, is going
to help find the original message.
> Changing the way this forum currently operates, and simultaneously
> destroying the "synergy" that exists here, would cause a large number of
> headaches for the forum regulars who regularly devote the time and monetary
> commitment to keep this forum thriving. The forum membership that pops on
> every so often to grab the thoughts and insights of the forum, simply have
> to realize that the forum as a whole is a stream of constant thoughts and
> opinions, and if they make the decision to pop on for a few seconds ever so
> often, then they will simply have to weed through the message base to find
> that little tidbit of info that they desire.
Please don't take offense, but not everyone uses the forum this way.
Many members will mark headers and download messages that sound
interesting. Of course they're going to miss out on the "synergy",
but I don't know what we can do about that. The alternative, to let
people download 30+ messages on "Summa graphics tablets" and find
they're all about people complaining about the message base itself,
is to me, unacceptable.
I'm sure it's also the primary reason that Autodesk does receive
complaints about the forum. You keep saying how much money you invest
in the forum; well, what about the guy who downloaded the 30 "Summa"
messages.
All I was asking for was a little consideration for everyone who
doesn't fall into the category of old hand. But if you think
differently, by all means get hold of Jeffrey Pike, the sysop, and
tell him ASOFT doesn't need threadmastering.
Why am I going to hate this?
Great and Powerful threadmaster! I could care less what the TM stands
for. In close to three years on this forum, I can't ever recall
seeing a "threadmaster" screwing with threads, and I look forward to
your endeavors. Considering how little threads have been compiled for
downloading in this forum, I'd say the twelve of you aren't doing
your jobs.
As to getting ahold of the sysop, I don't really have a need to. I'm
happy with the way things are going now. If you feel that there needs
to be some new regulation and/or restriction, then by all means start
your implementation. I sure hope Autodesk starts to pay you, because
it will be an extremely large task.
Since you evidently like to tout your all powerful hand around here
because you have a TM attached to your name and you have free flags,
lets not forget in this discussion that while I have over 30 copies
of Autodesk products, 3D Studio, Animator Pro, and Autocad, while I
spend on average $2000+ dollars on this forum every year, and while I
spend a heck of alot of time on this forum answering tech questions
continuously, additionally providing Adesk with support products to
bundle with their packages, and generally do a heck of alot to aid
Adesk in everyway possible, I think both you and your brethren should
take a serious look at what drives this forum and take the time to
realize that we're not kids sitting around with nothing better to do,
we happen to pay for this forum on a daily basis, and our purchases
and use of Adesk products is what allows Adesk to put those free
flags on your account.
I'd say that if you feel that there's a need to take this to a higher
authority, then maybe we should fly out to Autodesk and have a long
discussion of this whole problem. I'm sure Adesk would pay for your
trip, since they obviously intrust you with control of their only
support chain. Let's see, I figure that I answer somewhere around
100% more questions here than you do. Who do we feel does more to
support this forum? If you believe that you have the need and desire
to start regulating this forum, then I'm sure the forum members would
be thrilled to have you. When you edit that Summa thread make sure
you notice the 4 messages from Jonas unrelated to the header, 1
message from Nik totally unrelated, and the message from Gary. As a
matter of fact, make sure you realize that the only person who
actually answered the question regarding the Summa was John
Tissavary, Jonas took the thread south.
Next?
Paul E. Lind IV C.E.O. ANIM8 Incorporated
P.S. – Since you felt it necessary to explain TM, let me explain that
the CEO attached to my name means that I'm the one who signs all of
the checks for all of those Adesk products my company purchases. If
you notice the company name, you'll notice that we're the ones with
Bingo cards in every copy of the 3DS and AniPro packages, and if you
noticed the spelling of my name, I'm sure you'll recognize it as the
one Autodesk likes to attach to quotes selling their products.
If this becomes a real issue count me in for support. I don't care for
these indiscriminate tactics.
Thanks for the support. I'm currently in the process of drafting a
letter to Adesk. After making a few calls, it seems that this forum
is entirely supported by forum participants who pay to call in.
Therfore it would seem as though not only does Autodesk benefit from
not providing direct tech support like the majority of software
manufacturers, but they also directly benefit from the fact that we
provide alot of their tech support for them. So lets see….. that
means that they charge me for a piece of software, then I pay to call
in for tech support which pays for the forum, then I pay extra to
provide tech support to other Asoft customers, and I get grief for
the way I've done it for years. Maybe the answer is for Adesk to
keep all of us who can't keep comments to ourselves off the forum,
then they could spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to
provide their own tech support, we'd save alot of our money, and
actually be able to get someone on the phone to troubleshoot
problems.
Hey, maybe there is an alternative.
I feel the need to directly contact Autodesk, too. It seems that not
only does this forum exist because people call in and use it, but its
TM's thread hacking is threatening to be dictated by people who spend
the least time on the forum, but happen to call Adesk on the phone
and complain. I certainly not saying everyone needs to spend as much
time and effort here as everyone else, but I wish TM's and whoever
else is responsible for starting this would get their priorities
straight. Either that, or I'm totally off base and losing my mind.
Paul, you're absolutely right…. its a total stream of consciousness
and it flows at the wimp and the will of the respondents. There's no
way to control it, and as far as I can tell that's only human nature.
Most of us don't want to be confined any more than we have to, and a
free flow of thought and communication is an essential element to
discourse, especially here.
Regards,
-JE
P.S. And yes Jonas has done a remarkable job mining through the layers
for those little gems of wisdom. Damn good knowledge extractor you
are too Jonas. What a great opportunity to say so! 🙂 Thanks Paul.
<< jonas took it south >>.. grinning..
truth. I did and I don't think this forum needs thread masters even
though they do provide a service in other forums. I don't think that
there is any "facist" "policing" intent here (johnt's feelings). I
expect new forum membership to increase and I expect messages posted
each month to eventually hit 12,000. We're at 6,000+ now. I do think
that some forum members do use the forum in different ways with
respect to downloading practices.
I like the synergism that this forum has but I also like the
reference manual but some forum members don't read either one cover
to cover. 🙁 Paul, the forum is successful in helping forum members
gain new insights, mature techniques, help in overcoming
difficulties, with the credit going to those who *post*. (all of
you.!.)
I posted a suggestion regarding housekeeping. I was not dictating. I
want this forum to be successful and enjoyable when the trafic
doubles in volume without placing any of the formal structures on it
found in other forums. It will be challenging.
<< cliff notes.. >> summarizing the major threads into cliff notes
for the libs is one of the ways that we can prevent the need for
threading the threads in the message section.
I really was grinning when I posted the first message and pointed it
south. Now, I see that there's more to it here.
Jonas.. [facing the strong wind from the east]..
I think we will all try our best to start threads in the proper
categories, I think we have always done that.
I also think it's extremely interesting that even Adesk technical
support personnel feel that the methodology currently works.
So then, who put the free flag on the TM's account and who gives him
the authority to try to pressure us into doing what he says? I really
want to know, because quite obviously, his methods of dealing with
this entire subject have more than upset a few people on this forum.
<< free flags and TMs..who did it? >>
I don't know and wont until monday morning.
In truth, Jonas, the very recent flare up about "thread fascism" is
not aimed at you. I think you, Adesk, myself, and other forum
members are in agreement, and will continue to start threads where
they belong (to the best of our ability). I really don't have a
problem with your dialogue about forum organization.
My flare up (and I was pretty well pissed off) was at Dave Byrnes
popping over here and rehashing this with very little understanding
of what has been going on, and an immediate display of authoritative
power by moving an entire thread to a new section. Moving the thread
was actually not what offended me, I think the thread does belong in
take 5, or a new "Forum issues" section – it was the circumstance
under which it was done.
Dave, fair or not, that is the way the forum is, and unless you and
other TM's plan on switching thread titles whenever you notice a
stray comment, I don't think it's going to change.
I, and most other regulars and not regulars, make every effort to
start threads in their appropriate sections, with an appropriate
title. But because messages and replys almost always touch on
multiple issues, variance is going to happen. If it doesn't, or
messages are going to be butchered and moved around and whatnot, at
the whim of Adesk and TM's, them I'm going to SERIOUSLY rethink the
amount of time I dedicate to recieving and giving on this forum, and I
don't think I'm the only one.
I'm not suggesting that you or any other TM's shouldn't touch threads,
move them, etc… I think you guys have been doing a great job. I
AM, however, concerned that meddling with the dynamic, organic nature
of this forum is going to spoil it. If you look back at Jonas'
comments, he was not alluding that we change the way the forum
works. His comments were directed more at newcomers and folks that
don't spend a lot of time here, so they get an idea of why this forum
is the way it is. I can agree with this.
Frankly, I don't hear a lot of complaints about this forum. I'm sure
there are some, but there will by complaints about everything
everywhere all the time. That is the nature of diversity. As a
matter of fact, most of the comments I see congratulate Adesk and the
Yost Group for offering such a lively, vibrant, and useful place to
check in to.
> Dave, fair or not, that is the way the forum is, and unless you and other
> TM's plan on switching thread titles whenever you notice a stray comment,
> I don't think it's going to change.
Fortunately, switching threads at every stray comment is not in our
job description <g>.
But John, I moved over thirty messages that were ostensibly about
Summa graphics tablets! That's more than a stray comment, wouldn't
you say?
As I told Phil, all we're asking is that you start messages in the
appropriate section and start a new thread when it seems appropriate.
The problem of course, is that the first couple of messagers who
*aren't* talking about Summas, aren't aware they're birthing a
megathread! But that's what tms are for…
If you get complaints about threads being _started_ in the wrong
section then they must be referencing a different forum than the one
I log onto 4 times EVERY DAY.
I can see the problem with someone wanting to log on and download
threads that are consistent with their headers, but I firmly believe
that with the amount of traffic on this thread there is no way to
consistently ensure that outside Adesk hiring a fulltime
TM/SYSOP/Threadmover/Threadcensor for this forum. While I will
continue to start threads in their appropriate sections, I will also
continue to reply to items in messages that I feel are important, or
I want to reply to. Am I now being asked that every time I want to
reply to something that is not consistent with the header I'm going
to have to write a message saying "oh, sorry… I'm going to have to
reply to this in another section, because it's not directly relevant
to the thread title – please read message #xxxx in section X…" then
post my response in another forum?! That's ridiculous. If that's the
case I'm going to be bloody well pissed off, and I'm not going to
this forum very much in the future – and you can take that to the
bloody bank! God, this whole thing has me so infuriated I'm starting
to not enjoy myself anymore!!!
Let me ask you this, Dave: How many questions do you answer per day
on this forum? How many days per week do you show yourself on this
forum and help people with questions? These people who are
"cluttering" up the forum are also the ones that answer all the
g****mned questions.
A little heavy but well said non-the-less! Hang in there, I'm sure
this will be resolved appropriately in our favor.
>>I'm sure this will be resolved appropriately in our favor.<<
I hope so. As you can tell, I feel really strongly about this. I'm
glad there is support on this side of things, because it really seems
to me that certain people don't know where the support on this forum
is coming from.
Chill out, dudes. It was a _minor_ event and life's too short to turn it into
a major one.
Anyway, I think it's over now.
– G
I'm chill, at this point. I think it's over, too, but I didn't think
it was that minor. I like this place, and stuff like that ruffles my
feathers. It happens, now and then =-)
I'm just addressing this to you because you happen to be the last
person who penned a message to this thread. 🙂
I just wanted to say that I appreciate everyone's support on the TM
issue. Both to everyone who responded on the forum and through
e-mail. Unfortunately so many people have responded to me via e-mail
that I won't be able to reply to them all until tomorrow. I figured I
would post a general thanks to the forum, and let everyone know that
I'm still typing and trying to answer all of the e-mail but it may
take me a while, I'm not accustomed to having more e-mail than I can
answer in a short period of time. My hands have actually gotten sore
from typing.
No problem, Paul. I felt pretty strongly about this from the start.
It's nice to know that Jonas, et al feel the same way we do.