CompuServe Thread

#C Compiler Best of Best

83 messages in this thread
#21033From: Mike ReidMar 2, 1992 1:12 AM
I'm looking to buy a C compiler and to learn the language. I would like to hear suggestions as to which compiler to purchase. Comparisons of ease of use, power, speed ect would be most welcome. I have seen SAS c, C++, Aztec C and Lattice C listed in catalogs but don't know anything about any of them. I would like to find something similar to MicroSoft Quick Basic/Quick C as far as interface goes. Is there something like that available? Any C programmers out there please respond and tell me what you like/dislike about the compiler you are using. Thanks. Best… {MR} WHAP!ing from "The Field Of Dreams"
#21036From: Steve AhlstromMar 2, 1992 2:12 AM
Mike, There is really only 1 C compiler (for Amiga) to consider — SAS/C. SAS is "approved" compiler of CBM, it's got a point and clicky interface if you want (I don't, so I don't use that feature), and in general, is well supported and I'd guess that 95% of Amiga C development is done with it.
#21043From: Mike ReidMar 2, 1992 2:04 PM
Steve, Thanks for the reply re. C compilers. It sound like you and Ben are in total agreement. Do you agree with his opinions as to editors as well? Best… {MR} WHAP!ing from "The Field Of Dreams"
#21045From: Steve AhlstromMar 2, 1992 2:26 PM
Mike, Yes, I do. I use TurboText, have used CEDPro in the past — I believe Ben uses uEdit. All 3 are excellent.
#21105From: Wayne ColeMar 4, 1992 1:23 AM
Mike, Best editor in my opinion is TurboText. There is a file called BYELSE in the forums that allow it to replace the SAS/C supplied LSE editor in their environment. There is a fair indication that the next rev of SAS/C will explicitly support configuring your choice of editor into the environment of the compiler/linker. I suspect it will require ARexx and an editor that supports same. wmc
#21293From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 8, 1992 2:14 PM
I must agree that TurboText is an absolutely execelent editor. I switched to it about 4 months ago after LSE ate one too many files.
#21297From: Charles FigueiredoMar 8, 1992 3:50 PM
John: > I must agree that TurboText is an absolutely execelent editor. I switched to > it about 4 months ago after LSE ate one too many files. I just wish it could UNDO <sigh>. Someone said Martin had an upgrade almost ready which has UNDO capability and a few other nice things but OXXI claims they don't know anything about it. Regards Charles
#21306From: KEITH YOUNGMar 8, 1992 5:37 PM
The lack of a global UNDO feature is the main reason I have not switched over from CEDPro (ie. so far, the money I spent for TTX was wasted… well, I do like/use the calculator that came with it, so that's some consolation). Keith
#21350From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 9, 1992 7:27 PM
Actually even without the UNDO I am quite happy. TTX is quite fast and seems to be one of the most flexible/configurable editors that I have ever dealt with.
#21366From: KEITH YOUNGMar 9, 1992 11:44 PM
Hmm… I re-read the message you replied to, and it seemed to be more negative than I had intended. TTX does look like a nice editor, and I hope to look into it further, but UNDO is pretty much a pre-requisite for 'my' programming <grin>. Keith
#21039From: Black Belt SystemsMar 2, 1992 9:35 AM
There is no "interface" like what you're looking for. The SAS compiler is both a better compiler and better (more consistantly) supported than the Manx compiler. My recommendation is the SAS compiler, easily. The Amiga's multitasking OS and "deep" filesystem make it easy to live with a regular compiler and a good editor, skipping all the integrated environment stuff the PC and Mac owners have traditionally needed to get around the built-in problems of their more primitive operating systems. The key to all of this is a good editor. There are only three _really_ good ones now… UEdit (Shareware), TTX/TurboText (commercial) and CED (Commercial). Don't try and work thru with Ed or EDIT, and for grids sake whatever you do, do NOT try and use LSE, the editor that comes with SAS/c… "that way lies insanity" <grin> –Ben
#21044From: Mike ReidMar 2, 1992 2:04 PM
Ben, Thanks for your opinion on C compilers. My reference to quick basic was from a census record program I wrote for my laptop. For the MessyDOS enviroment it was very easy to use. I liked it much more than Amiga Basic as far as the programming interface goes. You and Steve both agree that SAS is the one to go with so I guess I'll have to order a copy and get one or the other of the editors you mentioned. Let me ask another question. Can you recommend any good books for learning C? I already have the Waite Groups Inside the Amiga with C but I haven't looked at it much as yet. Thanks. Best… {MR} WHAP!ing from "The Field Of Dreams"
#21056From: Black Belt SystemsMar 2, 1992 6:59 PM
Mike, I'll have to plead ignorance on this one… I use the K&R revised manual now and then, but generally have not had to resort to C books in a number of years – so what is out there isn't somthing I've kept up with. I have noticed some discussion(s) here about such books, so I think you'll get good avice from other sources. Good luck! –Ben
#21107From: Wayne ColeMar 4, 1992 1:24 AM
Mike, LSE is quirky but not that bad at all. It does have the advantage at the moment of being part of an environment a la Turbo products. From that perspective it is a little of an advantage – it does pop you into the source at the offending line of a compile error and you can setup and run the debugger from it. I guess the word for LSE is adequate. (It ain't really as bad as Ben says, although it is enough to drive some people to alternatives.) wmc
#21108From: Wayne ColeMar 4, 1992 1:24 AM
Mike, RE C manual: The C Proggrammers Handbook from AT&T Bell Labs, published by prentice hall. Its a little wire bound 84 page book. GREAT reference. It was originally devised as an AT&T internal "engineering notebook" type of thing. You can probably order it through Software Etc or a Waldens. ISBN 0-13-110073-4 wmc
#21127From: Mike ReidMar 4, 1992 1:29 PM
Wayne, Thanks for all the input. I'm putting all these msgs. in my .kpt file for posterity (sp). BTW in case you don't find your wallet, you're Wayne Cole <g>. Best… {MR} WHAP!ing from "The Field Of Dreams"
#21106From: Wayne ColeMar 4, 1992 1:24 AM
Hey – I used LSE for a long time before TTX came along and I aint crazy!! Now, if I can just find my wallet so I can see who I am today…. wmc
#21122From: Black Belt SystemsMar 4, 1992 11:11 AM
I used _ed_ to write PCLO, Wayne. :^) 850k of source files. Of course, there was no other editor at the time (October of '85) worth talking about… you can get the job done with just about anything, given time and determination. But now that you use TTX, you wouldn't go BACK, would you? <grin> –Ben
#21294From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 8, 1992 2:14 PM
Hey now, I wrote the 2.0 version of ED, it isn't that bad. What do I need to put into it for the next generation (besides a transfusion?)
#21309From: Black Belt SystemsMar 8, 1992 5:53 PM
The 2.0 version, I have no idea. I've not fired up ed since we made the switch to 2.0; I use UEdit, and I'm afraid unless has had a complete gene replacement, a course with Lou Ferrigno, and about a zillion hours of extra work… UEdit is what I'll have to stay with. :^) Ed's fine for your average not-an-editor-user. It sure beats the pants off of EDIT, which I view as a fossil when being kind and as things I can't print when not. :^)) –Ben
#21347From: Doug WingerMar 9, 1992 6:38 PM
Ben, Configurable. Arexx hooks. No longer thinks that if you scolled that much then there's GOTTA be 200 extra lines in the file and will keep bashing up against the EOF till dizzy. I usually find myself using Ed as my default editor. I have a few 'real' editors myself, but when going for the quick fix I usually just run ed naughtyfile.c. I've found myself starting a quick file in it and discovering that it's no longer a quick file. I guess it's because It's the one editor that I know all the commands to. 8) Tell John you're sorry. He's done a real Faery Godmother on this pumpkin, IMHO. Doug
#21354From: Black Belt SystemsMar 9, 1992 7:31 PM
Could well be. :^) –Ben
#21640From: Stephen AndersonMar 14, 1992 8:59 PM
Ben: I'm right there with you on UEdit. I've been using a VI configuration with mine (I know – vi isn't all that friendly, but it's what I'm used to and I use it at work all the time). I keep finding more I can do with it all the time. I don't think anyone could pay me to use a different editor.. Steve
#21650From: Black Belt SystemsMar 15, 1992 2:36 AM
UEdit is quite a job. It's about 30 degrees from the "accepted" Amiga conventions, but I'm quite used to it and can work very, very fast in it. I've also been able to do just about anything I wanted… Chris Genly, my brother in law, even wrote a little "electric C" CL thingee for it.. for instance, you type an "i", then press control-semicolon, and it builds a complete… if () { } ..structure. Does DO and a whole bunch of other coolness, too. Fun! –Ben
#21718From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 16, 1992 8:52 PM
TurboText will to the same thing (and is extremely configurable and Amiga normal). It didn't take me long to switch to it from LSE.
#21731From: Black Belt SystemsMar 17, 1992 1:33 AM
I've had the opportunity to play with it… decided I didn't want to eat another learning curve when what I had worked, and worked well. –Ben
#21790From: Stephen AndersonMar 18, 1992 12:35 PM
Ben: I'm uploading here my new configuration for UEdit VI, for UEdit 3.0. It includes all those electric C thingies (I didn't write them – maybe they're from your brother-in-law…). Anyway, I'm uploading the "source" configs too, some of which may be of use to you. One thing that you might want to take a look at is the SAS/C latch-up I did like Steve Tibett's (sp?) one for TurboText: Catches the compiler errors, loads the source file into UEdit, displays the compiler error, and positions the cursor at the line and column of the error. You can step forward or backward through all the errors. Should be relatively portable to other UEdit configurations… Steve Anderson
#21797From: Black Belt SystemsMar 18, 1992 6:48 PM
Ok, Steve – thanks for dropping the note to me. I'll look for it. –Ben
#21351From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 9, 1992 7:27 PM
You really are trying to hit at me… 🙂 🙂 Guess who did the 2.0 version of edit? Surprisingly edit is more powerful than people think. It is targeted as a stream editor and not as something that someone would use for normal editing. I have seen some interesting EDIT scripts that came through as part of the testing process.
#21364From: Black Belt SystemsMar 9, 1992 11:34 PM
Yeah, I know what edit is for… Larry went into some detail one night and convinced me it's not useless, just fossilized. :^) But I didn't know you wrote it. Look, I *love* the C compiler, ok? <grin> –Ben
#21375From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 10, 1992 7:27 AM
Oh, three strikes and you are out. I don't work on the C compiler any more 🙂 🙂 :-). I tell you what, next time I put something out I will let you know what it is and you can get your licks in advance. On the other hand, you missed a few other things to take stabs at: type, echo, avail, break, changetaskpri, lock, makelink, remrad, status, and wait. Providing you rest on Sunday, you can complain about a different one each day for two weeks. 🙂 😉 :-).
#21383From: John DraperMar 10, 1992 9:56 AM
You didn't have anything to do with 'path' did you? <evil grin> -larry
#21390From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 10, 1992 5:50 PM
… checking the RCS logs on path … No, path was originally done by Jim Cooper, but Andy Finkel took over it as an internal command.
#21407From: John DraperMar 10, 1992 10:18 PM
Too bad… I had originally intended to complain 9again) about the path command, but decided I better try it again. just after I left the question this morning, I discovered that what was broken with it before appears to be fixed. I can now REMOVE a single path entry. Makes it usable. -larry
#21423From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 11, 1992 9:13 AM
Ah, that wasn't a bug in the path command, but a bug in dos itself. The problem also showed up in the ASSIGN command.
#21394From: Black Belt SystemsMar 10, 1992 6:36 PM
I loved the compiler when you DID work on it. :^) So you can't count it as a strike. :^))
#21399From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 10, 1992 9:32 PM
Well, I guess that I will let you slide this once, but don't let it happen again. If it does, you will be forced to program in APL on a ASR33 teletype. (two bonus points if anyone can remember using one of these beasties, 5 bonus points if you have one of them in your basement, 50 points and a free trip to the loonie bin if one is hooked up to you Amiga 🙂 )
#21408From: John DraperMar 10, 1992 10:20 PM
Well, I get two bonus points for having used one, but none for having one in the basement or hooked up to my Amiga. Can I get any points for having used a model 19? 🙂
#21424From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 11, 1992 9:13 AM
It depends upon what the 19 was hooked to….
#21409From: Don Curtis/SYSOPMar 10, 1992 10:49 PM
I'll take the 2 points if the ASR33 was the one with the paper tape punch/reader on the left side…and it used roll paper, not fan-fold. I programmed in FORTRAN on one of them (if that was it) back in the mid 60's.
#21425From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 11, 1992 9:13 AM
You get the 2 points, but I will have to take one back for not being sure of it. Real ASR33's used roll paper – yellow paper and yellow paper tape on the true authentic ones (and I am not sure if it was due to the aging process of the paper). Of course for admitting programming in Fortran you lose another point so I think that leaves you where you started :-).
#21443From: Mike SchillerMar 11, 1992 3:14 PM
Don: That's the one. the ASR stood for Automatic Send Recieve ala papertape. I'd love to hookup mine to my amiga,just to be able to use the papertape punch/reader. The other common model was the KSR-33 (Keyboard Send Recieve). The 33's were ASCII, while the 32 series were Baudot, and ended up mainly used as telix machines. Now the big question is why do I bother remembering these things? -Mike Schiller In sunny Fort Lauderdale
#21420From: Kelly JordanMar 11, 1992 7:15 AM
John, I used to have a Teletype 35 hooked up to my 1802 board!! (The 35 was on loan) I do have a Digital LA36 decwriterII (without the additional numeric keypad) and have had it hooked up to my A1000 until I could afford a parallel dot matrix. And at one time I had a Teletype model 19 hooked up to another 1802, but gave it away. 73, Kelly
#21426From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 11, 1992 9:13 AM
Ah, one special bonus point for the man with an ELF (or was it a SuperELF?). I still have mine up in the closet with its full 256 bytes of ram, hex keypad, 32 BYTE rom monitor, and 2 digit HEX display. Those certainly were the days…
#21442From: Mike SchillerMar 11, 1992 3:14 PM
John: Ok, do I qualify? 2 points, I do remember ASR33's. 5 more because I have one in a friends garage up north (they don't have many garages in florida condos), and maybe 25 more because I was thinking of having my friend ship it down to me so I could hook it up to my Amiga? 🙂 I did briefly have an Anderson-Jacobson AJ841 printing terminal hooked up to my Amiga. Do you remember that one? I also happen to be the proud? owner of 2 other computers that I don't use anymore, one is an Imsai 8080 based CP/M machine, the other one was my main computer for many years before it stopped working the day I moved it to dust underneath it is a NorthStar Horizon complete with 56k memory, And an old DC Hayes Micromodem100, now I'll bet that's a card that could become a collector's item one day! -Mike Schiller In sunny Fort Lauderdale
#21452From: Black Belt SystemsMar 11, 1992 6:33 PM
Mike, does your Imsai have the flat toggle switches on the front? If so, I'm interested in it if you'd like to get it out of the house. –Ben
#21482From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 12, 1992 6:34 AM
Hm… Garage in a Florida CONDO… Friend who has one… Is that like once remembering seeing a picture of a person who once touched a teletype? I will give you 5 points for creativity. Ooops, that just put you in the lead.
#21512From: Peter SmithemMar 12, 1992 2:55 PM
OK, I get two points for using one. Do I get any points for the Intel MDS 800 development station sitting three feet to my right? Peter
#21514From: SPC Superbase Tech SuppMar 12, 1992 3:54 PM
An MDS-800?! I've got one of those! 4 floppies (8", of course), and loads and loads of memory and I/O cards. A couple of boxes full, actually. Plus, I've got an IBEX CP/M machine with two floppies and a 10MB hard drive. Just a small power supply problem to get it working. I need to fix that one day. 🙂 Darin, SPC Superbase Technical Support
#21596From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 13, 1992 10:33 PM
If it is powered up you get 3 points.
#21370From: Brian BartlettMar 10, 1992 1:19 AM
John, so far as I can tell, those without a mainframe background do not appreciate what Edit can do when provided with suitable scripts. I've done some amazing things with Edit scripts not only on this machine, but others with similiar capablities. Perhaps that is not so great a factor in this age of ARexx scripts, but I appreciate the work. Brian
#21376From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 10, 1992 7:27 AM
I was even looking at adding an AREXX port to edit. If you have any suggestions for EDIT, I would love to hear them. The only thing that I am looking for right now is wildcards. Another possibility would be to combine EDIT and ED functionality somehow.
#21382From: John DraperMar 10, 1992 9:54 AM
John, The main thing that EDIT needs is a companion DIFF program. -larry
#21391From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 10, 1992 5:50 PM
I like that, it works just like diff -e on unix. I will put it on the list of interesting things to do.
#21554From: Brian BartlettMar 13, 1992 2:26 AM
John, I'll leave myself a note to compile a list and post it to you. I'd love to see an ARexx port and wildcards. Larry's idea of a diff companion is also quite nice (hmmm, unattended backup scripts created on the fly?) Brian
#21380From: Peter SmithemMar 10, 1992 9:38 AM
Mainframe or UNIX background… Still, I was hoping the 2.0 Shell would have REAL pipes. I WANT MY STREAMS!!! Peter
#21384From: Andy FinkelMar 10, 1992 10:20 AM
You can try the PIPE command in hacks.lzh (uploaded here) which gives command line pipes, or use one of the CSH shells, or even get a commercial shell like Wshell. andy
#21046From: Betty Clay/SYSOPMar 2, 1992 3:47 PM
Mike, Lattice is the old name for SAS/C, and is the best choice now. It gets the best support of any of the compilers. Aztec has fallen on hard times, though I think they are still in business. They have offered no support here for a very long time. I'm sure Greg Comeau will tell youabout C++, since his company sells that one, and since he is on here often. Betty
#21079From: Mike ReidMar 3, 1992 11:47 AM
Betty, Thanks for the reply. I mentioned C++ since I had seen it mentioned in ads from some of the mail order places. I've also seen books on it that were for MS-DOS. Hmmmm… {MR} WHAP!ing from "The Field Of Dreams"
#21136From: Gerry ZeitlinMar 4, 1992 8:59 PM
I've just been reading your remarks to Mike Reid re Lattice and SAC/C. Quite unexpectedly, a possible programming contract for an Amiga application has come my way. Years ago I was very heavy into FORTRAN programming, and learned a little C around six years back. I have Lattice C++ 1.0 which I purchased back in 1990 and never took out of the box until now. My first question is, what will happen if I mail in the user registration card to Lattice Inc. in Glen Ellyn, IL? My next is, who is the vendor now, and what is the current version number? What relationship, if any, does Comeau have to the C++ package I now have? And then I could ask what is REALLY bothering me: Is it feasible to try to learn and produce usable code in C++ when I never really had much experience with C itself? (I found a book titled *An Introduction to Object-Oriented Programming and C++*, by Wiener and Pinson, in the box.) As if all that were not enough, I might ask if anyone could steer me to an appropriate set of books for progamming in the Amiga environment. One aspect will be the GUI for the program; is there a recommended book on that subject? Thanks in advance! Gerry Zeitlin / Lee Vining, CA / (619)647-6438 / gmz@netcom.com
#21150From: Betty Clay/SYSOPMar 4, 1992 11:49 PM
Gerry, I am not a strong programmer. Most people who participate in AmigaTech are far better programmers than I, though I do have and (occasionally) use the most recent version of SAS/C. I know nothing of C++. I've never looked at it at all. I just point people to Comeau, who publishes the only supported C++ for the Amiga that I know about. I don't know what would happen if you sent your card to Lattice, but I do know that they have not upgraded that version, and I'm sure they do not plan to do so. As for books, you need to start out with the Rom Kernal Manuals. You should find them at almost any good bookstore. Be sure to get the most recent versions. There are several volumes, and you do need all of them. Everythng you need will be in them, though they are not exactly recreational-type reading! Betty
#21189From: Gerry ZeitlinMar 6, 1992 2:52 AM
Betty: Thanks for the information and for recommending the ROM Kernel manuals. If the project looks like a go, I will definitely obtain them. Here's another question for you or anyone else here: Browsing through last summer's AC product listing, I found two utilities that are supposed to assist in programming GUI's: AmeegaView and Power Windows. Each of them would appear to tremendously speed up the process of developing a user interface. Is there a catch somewhere, or is this really a good way to go? Thanks… Gerry Zeitlin / Lee Vining, CA / (619)647-6438 / gmz@netcom.com
#21226From: Betty Clay/SYSOPMar 6, 1992 10:00 PM
I've heard glowing recommendations of PowerWindows, and I even have it – but have not used it myself. I just haven't done any programming since I bought it a few months ago. There are programs in AmigaVendor libraries that will do quite a few nice things for you – like changing IFF images to C code. PowerWindows is published by Innovatronics. They have a section in AmigaVendor, so you might want to get more information about it over there.
#21251From: Gerry ZeitlinMar 7, 1992 9:32 PM
It turns out that my potential client has a close relationship with Innovatronics, and we've been discussing PowerWindows. Looks like I will be using that product. I'm also intrigued with your mention of a utility that can generate C code from IFF images. Can't imagine how they do that, other than perhaps a pixel-by-pixel translation. But I'll sure take a look over in AmigaVendor. Thanks. Gerry Zeitlin / Lee Vining, CA / (619)647-6438 / gmz@netcom.com
#21627From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 14, 1992 11:56 AM
For generating data for IFF images, all it does is create the bitmap from the data and store it as an initialized chip storage array. IT also creates the appropriate Image structure so that you can call DrawImage with it.
#21239From: William CageMar 7, 1992 11:35 AM
I saw your question on power windows. I have never used power windows (I did play with the demo once), but there is a freely distributable program called GadToolsBox that does the same thing. The only catch is that it is WB2.0 only and the code it produces is WB2.0 only. It is extremely easy to use and it allows you to design screens and windows with any number of gadgets attached. This includes all of the new screen modes and gadgets that are supported with WB2.0. As an added bonus, the programmer includes all of the source code for the program, so you can modify the code or use it for programming examples to help on your own project. I guess that it is on CompuServe, but if you can't find it let me know and I'll upload the package. If you don't need backward compatability with WB1.3 then this program will fit the bill. Bill – via Whap!
#21252From: Gerry ZeitlinMar 7, 1992 9:32 PM
Thanks, Bill. This group has been unbelievably helpful. Thanks to you all. Gerry Zeitlin / Lee Vining, CA / (619)647-6438 / gmz@netcom.com
#21371From: Brian BartlettMar 10, 1992 1:19 AM
Gerry, another file you might want to look at for 1.3 support is Precog.lha in, I think, the Progammers Tools library. It seems to provide most of the functionality that a programmer would expect although I have not extensively tested it yet. (Summer, I hope!) Brian
#21574From: Gerry ZeitlinMar 13, 1992 3:32 PM
Thanks Brian, for both of those suggestions. As it turns out, I will probably be using CanDo and Power Windows for prototyping and interface development, but I will make a point of looking at the tools you've suggested. My discussions with the would-be client have now progressed to the point where they want to know how much I'll be asking for this software. For several reasons, it will be done on a flat fee basis. My problem is that, although I'm not by any means new to computer programming, my experience was in an entirely different environment and I have no idea how to estimate a fair price for my work. If you or anyone else would care to give me a call at 619-647-6438 or send me email, to offer some guidance on this subject, I would be very grateful! Regards, Gerry Zeitlin / Lee Vining, CA / (619)647-6438 / gmz@netcom.com
#21619From: Brian BartlettMar 14, 1992 4:44 AM
Gerry, I can't help you there. All my work was slave labor for the U.S. Navy, so I have no idea about what programming is worth. The only time I ever worked on a fee basis was for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. No measure of comparison. Sorry. Good luck though! Brian
#21635From: Gerry ZeitlinMar 14, 1992 7:02 PM
My work was slave labor also. But not to worry; I just saw someone else's reply scroll by with perhaps some numbers, and anyway, I've been giving it a lot of thought and I think I know how to work out a bid. Thanks Brian. Gerry Zeitlin / Lee Vining, CA / (619)647-6438 / gmz@netcom.com
#21628From: John Toebes/SYSOPMar 14, 1992 11:57 AM
Pricing is always a difficult job. I have charged $100 an hour for my consulting services (very short job) and as little as $20/hour. On a one price basis, it is a little more difficult to estimate. Sometimes the project prices itself out of existance because of the work. You can try and do an estimate based on the amount of time to complete the project (months/weeks or so) and then divide that into an appropriate annual salary for your work. This usually comes out a bit lower than an hourly rate and can make the project go. Be willing to negotiate and more importanly, make sure that your estimates are accurate. Many a programmer has underestimated a task and ended up losing money on the proposition. Also, consider issues such as support and training.
#21636From: Gerry ZeitlinMar 14, 1992 7:03 PM
John, Thanks for the interesting reply. For what it's worth, I don't think an annual salary provides the appropriate basis for calculating hourly charges, unless you throw in a factor of 2 to cover vacation, health, retirement, and educational/training/conference attendance benefits. And job insecurity as well! The range you cited – $20 to $100 – seems right. I'm sure I'll wind up in there somewhere! 🙂 Seriously, I'm going to have to spend a lot of time training myself, and of course that is not going to be figured in. I'm thinking now that I'll try to assign hours to each requested program feature, both for the prototype and the final version, and put in time for testing, revisions, documentation writing, and whatever else seems like it will be part of the development cycle. I'll assume reasonable competency, even though it will probably take me much longer, being more or less incompetent at the start. That seems to be the only way that is fair to both parties. And I'll receive the very important extra benefit of learning a marketable skill with someone else's partial assistance. Again, thanks for your reply. I had wondered if computing a fixed-fee bid had something of a black art to it; you've indicated that it can be a straightforward calculation, but that it has to be based on a good estimate of hours to be spent on the project. And then left open to negotiation. Regards, Gerry Zeitlin / Lee Vining, CA / (619)647-6438 / gmz@netcom.com
#21322From: ShraddhanMar 9, 1992 12:47 AM
> Power Windows I've used this product from time to time. Can be really handy. The version I've got doesn't do _everything_ I want, but enough. Shraddhan – via Whap! from Hertfordshire in the UK
#21154From: Greg Comeau@Comeau CmptgMar 5, 1992 12:33 AM
>I have Lattice C++ 1.0 which I purchased back in 1990 and >never took out of the box until now. Since you're that loose with your money, I'll expect your order soon 😉 >My next is, who is the vendor now, and what is the current version number? >What relationship, if any, does Comeau have to the C++ package I now have? It's a longish story, but in brief is like this: a third party did the Lattice C++ and Lattice sold it (nothing wrong with that). It was based upon AT&T cfront 1.1. The product was buggy, never upgraded, and at this point something like 3.5 years old. The only relationship this has with Comeau C++ is that (1) we use SAS/C as one our back end (and are very happy with it) and (2) we are based upon AT&T cfront (we through 1.2, 2.1, and now 3.0 which started shipping Wednesday) which has been seriously revamped, rewritten, and highly compliant. So, effectively: no relationship. >And then I could ask what is REALLY bothering me: Is it feasible to try to >learn and produce usable code in C++ when I never really had much experience >with C itself? (I found a book titled *An Introduction to Object-Oriented >Programming and C++*, by Wiener and Pinson, in the box.) W&P is not a good book, but a few years ago it was about about the only book available. Once upon a time we had included it in our offering as well. Drop it at your local paper recyclers or to the Boston Museum.
#21190From: Gerry ZeitlinMar 6, 1992 2:52 AM
Greg, it's not that I'm so loose with my money; the thing didn't cost much! I found it in an Amiga retail store in Phoenix that was in the process of unloading all their merchandise, as they were abandoning the Amiga. It might have cost, oh, $75, and I couldn't turn it down, even though I had no use for it at the time and I didn't even have enough RAM to run it then. I AM interested in your product. If I get the contract I will definitely use it. I don't know whether or not I will purchase it directly from you, or if my client will be able to get it for me at a discount from the retailer where he purchases a great deal of hardware and software. Speaking of books on C++, which of today's offerings would be your first choice? Incidentally, I installed the Lattice system after leaving yesterday's message on CIS, and found that it would not compile hello.cp! Cfront produces a software error, and increasing the stack size to 20000 does not help. I'm not going to worry about it, though, because after reading your message I don't intend to use it. Thanks. Gerry Zeitlin / Lee Vining, CA / (619)647-6438 / gmz@netcom.com
#21194From: SyndesisMar 6, 1992 9:13 AM
Check out the latest issue of Computer Language magazine, this is the annual "Jolt" awards issue. In it, they review the top products of the year, including books on OOP and C++. I know I spotted a few that I'm going to buy, the descriptions sounded great.
#21223From: Gerry ZeitlinMar 6, 1992 9:14 PM
Wouldn't you know! I live in a very rural area, and normally wouldn't expect to find a copy of Computer Language anywhere around here, but just today I saw one – the only computer-related magazine they had – in a general store in a little town about 20 miles from here. Naturally I didn't buy it. Guess I'll be driving back there tomorrow. Gerry Zeitlin / Lee Vining, CA / (619)647-6438 / gmz@netcom.com
#21202From: Greg Comeau@Comeau CmptgMar 6, 1992 11:39 AM
>I AM interested in your product. If I get the contract I will definitely use >it. I don't know whether or not I will purchase it directly from you, or if >my client will be able to get it for me at a discount from the retailer where >he purchases a great deal of hardware and software. You may not know, but I do! 😉 We sell direct only. >Speaking of books on C++, which of today's offerings would be your first >choice? For totally intro, go the route of: o "Teach Youself C++" by Al Stevens For more of the wavelength (but better!) of the K&R of C++, go the route of: o C++ Primer (SECOND EDITION ONLY) by Stanley Lippman o The C++ Programming Language (SECOND EDITION ONLY) by Bjarne Stroustrup For reference no matter what, get: o The Annotated C++ Reference Manual by Ellis and Stroustrup (this books is commonly referred to as the "ARM"). For Advanced C++'ing, get: o Advanced C++ Programming Style and Idioms by James Coplien For OOP books, go the route of: o Object Oriented Design With Applications by Grady Booch o Object Oriented Programming: An Evolutionary Approach by Brad Cox o Object Oriented Software Construction by Bertrand Meyer o Designing with Object Oriented Software by Wirfs-Brock, Wilkersion, and Wiener
#21224From: Gerry ZeitlinMar 6, 1992 9:14 PM
OK, Greg! I'll be speaking with my would-be client shortly. He already understands that there will be something of a learning curve on this project. If we can agree to go ahead, I'll be back in touch with you to place my order. And thanks for the book recommendations. Gerry Zeitlin / Lee Vining, CA / (619)647-6438 / gmz@netcom.com
#21238From: Greg Comeau@Comeau CmptgMar 7, 1992 10:37 AM
Okey Dokey!
#21203From: Greg Comeau@Comeau CmptgMar 6, 1992 11:39 AM
Oh, and this may sound cynical but it's not, just about any other book should be considered suspect.
#21204From: Greg Comeau@Comeau CmptgMar 6, 1992 11:40 AM
>Incidentally, I installed the Lattice system after leaving yesterday's message >on CIS, and found that it would not compile hello.cp! Cfront produces a >software error, and increasing the stack size to 20000 does not help. I'm not >going to worry about it, though, because after reading your message I don't >intend to use it. Well, since you've got it, it can't hurt to play. Set a stack size to 100000 (100K) and you should be ok for that part of it.