#Future of DTV?
24 messages in this thread
I'm a manager of a small graphics media department in the federal government.
Most of my project work involves the production of print media (brochures,
reports, posters, etc.) and exhibits. A few years ago, I also ran my own
desktop publishing business (and still do some on the side) so I have a pretty
good hands-on knowledge of computer graphic design and DTP.
However, I'm getting more and more involved in multi-media and video — and
area I'm not nearly as familiar with. I need some advice and opinions that will
at least give me some feel for the video field.
We have a three person video production shop that uses over $200,000 worth of
video production equipment and an on-line editing suite. We are being asked to
make decisions about the future of this shop and how they will provide service
to our other departments. This shop includes dedicated staff who produce
excellent work.
Here are my questions (some of them dumb and naive, I realize):
1) With the rapid improvement in data compression, will low cost desktop video
eventually replace expensive and specialized video production hardware?
2) Can accessible and inexpensive desktop video (e.g. Intel's Smart Video
Recorder Pro and similar hardware/software packages) replace production suites
for multi-media presentations? Will they someday?
3) Will we see the day when desktop video for the masses can produce
professional quality video for television? If not now, when?
I participated in the revolution of DTP and how over five short years it
changed the print industry as we know it. I can now reliably produce
professional quality print materials from my desktop for less than a $15,000
investment. Five years ago, I would have needed about $150,000 to do the same
thing. I wonder if the same thing is happening in the video production world.
I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on this. Sorry for being so
long-winded. I placed this message in the Business section of DTV by mistake.
Sorry bout that.
Jim Mulchinock
James:
>With the rapid improvement in data compression, will low cost desktop video
eventually replace expensive and specialized video production hardware? <
Depends on how you qualify "expensive and specialized video production
hardware". If you mean "Can I do elaborate special effects cheaper?", then the
answer is it already has to some extent (cf, BABYLON 5 and SEAQUEST DSV). If
you mean, OTOH, "Will nonlinear editing replace linear editing for professional
video production?", my guess would be not for another 5-10 years. While
nonlinear editing's certainly attractive, it's also a memory and throughput
hog–even w/newer compression schemes.
>Can accessible and inexpensive desktop video (e.g. Intel's Smart Video
Recorder Pro and similar hardware/software packages) replace production suites
for multi-media presentations? Will they someday?<
Wait a sec–let's define our terms here. "Desktop video", as I understand it,
means a production that's going to finally end up back on videotape and/or
movie film for general release, while "multimedia" is a presentation that will
probably never leave a computer. (I am, of course, open to any
corrections/clarifications in my definitions from anyone else on this forum.)
If you're looking for a presentation that you can play on a computer screen
(like an electronic slideshow or an interactive training demo), then the
hardware/software you're discussing can be used for this purpose *better* than
a linear video editing suite. If, OTOH, you're talking about a straight video
production that'll play on post office VCRs, say, then it's not quite good
enough yet. Will it replace them someday? Probably–in about five-ten years
(see above).
Hope this helps–and I welcome any corrections/clarifications to my own, rather
rudimentary, understanding of DTV/multimedia,
Tim Liebe
Contributing Editor,
VIDEO Magazine
James, my thoughts…
DTV has already replaced most of the Video _production_ tools on the market.
Afterall, all the high-end of CG/SEG/ETC. was digital anyway, I believe, and
now we just have _interfaces_ that are PC based. _Distribution_ is still
linear, analog tape, as the word distribution implies, it should be on the
lowest common denominator. Distribution too will change, in the next few
years, to digital based networks.
DTV is a part of any definition I would use for (computer based) multi-media.
I believe that computers and DTV created the multi-media market explosion that
is currently ocurring.
Right now, with the correct software and a service bureau, the "masses" can
create virtually whatever they can imagine and have it output to video tape in
whatever quality they prefer.
-John
John:
>James, my thoughts…
DTV has already replaced most of the Video _production_ tools on the market. <
A clarification, please–are we discussing "production" as in a pass-through
for effects, titling and edit controlling (ala the Fast Video Machine), or
"production" as in complete editing (like the nonlinear systems)?
I'd thought that nonlinear was a few years down the road for general
professional/industrial use, yet…
Tim Liebe
Tim,
I would term "production" as the actual editing process (modifying, changing,
etc.) as unrelated to where the sources/output end up. Therefore, whether
linear or non-linear sources are used the "editing" or "production" can (and
is) all being accomplished with computers. Some of the computers are
black-boxes with poor io, and some are fully interfaced DTV platforms.
-John
John:
>Therefore, whether linear or non-linear sources are used the "editing" or
"production" can (and is) all being accomplished with computers.<
Okay–most professional editing anymore *is* being done w/computers.
I guess my question is–am I 'way out of date by assuming that nonlinear's
still about 5-10 years away for most professional/industrial editing, or does
that sound about right?
Tim
O.K. Trying to make me commit myself, eh? 🙂 In my opinion linear editing is
well on the way out. We will still need the tape decks for input and output
for 5-10 years, but the editing itself is within a year or so of being totally
domintated by non-linear devices. It is going to take time for non-linear to
replace traditional linear editing systems, just because there are so many out
there, but I would say that every new purchase decision from here on out will
have to factor in devices like the FAST DP/R, NewTek Flyer, AVID, etc.
-John
John:
>O.K. Trying to make me commit myself, eh? :-)<
No, just looking for an informed opinion…:) Like I've said before, the
problem w/writing primarily for a consumer video magazine is that you seldom
get to look at all the neato-keeno stuff that's the cutting edge of the market.
And hey–I want to play w/the big boys/girls, too! <g>
>We will still need the tape decks for input and output for 5-10 years, but the
editing itself is within a year or so of being totally domintated by non-linear
devices.<
Have the throughput and artifacting issues I've been reading so much about on
this forum been solved? Or is it that they're only evident w/mid-level
equipment (i.e., equipment that small businesses/ individuals can afford)?
Okay, let me rephrase that–I know that, if you've got all the money in the
world (i.e., Spielberg, Disney), you can afford the level of computers needed
for high-quality nonlinear editing. But where does that leave, say, normal
television shows or industrial video? Let alone folks who are doing wedding
videos or shows for public access (the readership I write to/am a part of)?
Tim
Tim:
>>Have the throughput and artifacting issues I've been reading so much about on
this forum been solved? Or is it that they're only evident w/mid-level
equipment (i.e., equipment that small businesses/ individuals can afford)? <<
I see what you're saying: this forum tend to focus on the lower end of the
pricing scale. I think you're right too to recognize many of these as
multimedia tools rather than video production tools. Of the 20 or so PC video
capture cards we studied for New Media (Nov. issue), only five even have output
to tape. The rest are capture cards to get video into the computer, presumably
for multimedia purposes (or off-lining with EDL output, though I_know_some of
those manufacturers don't know what off-line editing is). Only nine of the
cards could achieve "multimedia quality," 320×240 @ 30fps. OTOH, a year ago,
most couldn't do 160×120 @ 30fps. Things are moving very fast.
And from the top down, it shouldn't take a Spielberg or Disney to afford all
the good stuff. Data Translation's Media 100 has what many say is the best
picture quality of anyone for less than $20,000 (their base system, still quite
good picture starts @ $8,995). AVID has the Media Suite Pro for $9,995 and the
low and of the Composer line for about twice that. FAST's Video Machine with
DPR is under $15,000 plus decks. For capture cards, there's the Targa 2000 on
both PC and now Mac for $6-7000. Video Vision Studio sells for $4,000. Those
boards can do 640×480 60 fields.
Those prices aren't consumer level, but they are unavoidable as compared with
traditional analog editing components. These capture cards we talk about most
on this forum have a place, though they are not going to take over the
professional editing world. The technology they share with their higher end
cousins probably will.
Jeff Sauer
Jeff:
>Those prices aren't consumer level, but they are unavoidable as compared with
traditional analog editing components. These capture cards we talk about most
on this forum have a place, though they are not going to take over the
professional editing world. The technology they share with their higher end
cousins probably will.<
Thanks for all the info! That's pretty much what I needed to know. As you
pointed out earlier, the stuff is a bit more "pricey" than consumer/prosumer
level, but it *is* affordable for industrial customers…
Best,
Tim
Tim,
Broadcastable non-linear systems are getting down in price to where they can
start as low as about $3,000-$5000 for the board (DPS PAR w/TBCIV, Digital
Broadcaster 32, NewTek Flyer), plus harddrives. Enough HD for about 20 minutes
of broadcastable video and audio can start as low as about $2500 (4GB). Now,
granted, prices can go up from there significantly and all of these options
would "render" CG/transitions/etc. without a downstream switcher. When you
consider the price of a traditional frame-accurate recorder starts at $3000 the
non-linear system starts looking even more attractive.
The "artifacting and throughput" issues are only issues in the consumer
targeted devices that typically sell for under $1,000.
-John
John:
>Broadcastable non-linear systems are getting down in price to where they can
start as low as about $3,000-$5000 for the board (DPS PAR w/TBCIV, Digital
Broadcaster 32, NewTek Flyer), plus harddrives. Enough HD for about 20 minutes
of broadcastable video and audio can start as low as about $2500 (4GB). <
Okay–so we're talking about $10,000 – $15,000 to get a nonlinear broadcastable
system set up. A bit high for the market I predominantly write for, but it's
within their grasp should they want to move up in the world…
Thanks!
Tim
Hi Tim,
>>>But where does that leave, say, normal television shows or industrial
video? Let alone folks who are doing wedding videos or shows for public access
(the readership I write to/am a part of)?<<<
Well for what it is worth here is my 2 cents worth. I think the solution to
the question of when should I use NLE or Linear editing is a hybrid system.
What I mean by haybrid is a system that will work as a NLE ( non-linear )
editor, but will also controll decks and work in a linear enviroment. This way
you could digitize in high compression and get the time saving assets of
working NLE. Then you could go back to tape for your final assemble of the
tape. I see this as the only solution for those folks that work on long
projects such as weddings.
As far as how long it will take to get the editing enviroment into a totaly
non-linear prosses will be 5 years tops. Why do I say this????? well here is
the way I look at it. The main thing holding back NLE is the fact that it takes
so much storage space to hold video in the digital rhelm. This is due to the
fact that current compression scheems aren't that great. What we need is better
compresion right??? Well with all the cable systems talking about video on
demand and interactive cable, they are going to need to store all this stuff
somewhere. The only way to do it is go digital, compress and store it on main
frames. So with all that said you can bet you bottom dollar that every GEEK in
this great nation ( not to mention all the other great nations) is holed up in
some closset working on a better mouse trap :-)) And just think how rich he or
she will be in the end.
Now I know that some folks will say that video contains to much
information. You just can't compress it enough without quality loss to make it
truly managable. My answer to that is that not to long ago people said that the
Berlin Wall would never fall, or that man would never walk on the moon……and
then it happened.
Just my opinion,
Michael W. Towe
Falcon Video Productions
Santee Ca.
> the question of when should I use NLE or Linear editing is a hybrid
> system
I'm interested in such a system as an amateur. What would be a good
example? In my case I've been considering the following:
> TR-700 Hi8 capture and source
> PC (specs? – minimum CPU, HD, Video and Monitor, I/O) with
> Tape-based Editor – Video Director 2.0
> Titling Software – Flying Fonts?
> Audio Digitizer – Soundblaster 16 AWE32
> Encoder/Scan Converter – ???
> S-VHS VCR target
> Color monitor and speakers
My understanding is incomplete so how would you modify this?
Thanks.
-jts
Hi John,
>> I'm interested in such a system as an amateur. <<
Unfortunatly there is realy not a system that will do it in the "amature"
price range. The only Hybrid systems out that I know of are the Matrox studio
and th FAST Video Machine with DP/R option. Both systems will run you around
$20,000 plus.
As far as amature level you will have to make the dissision of either
Linear or NLE and go from there. On the Linear side there is the Video Director
or Studio Magic. On the NLE side you have a slew of compression cards and
programs such as Premeir to edit with. I realy can't comment much on these
systems since I haven't used them much. But I am shure there are folks here who
do and will add to this.
As far as the video equip. is concerned I would recomend the following for
a low end solution.
DECKS… I have yet to find a SVHS deck that can out produce the Panisonic
AG-1970 for a deck at it's price level.
NTSC Monitor…I use a Panisonic CT-1383Y and it is a good monitor for it's
price. It does not have some of the higher end functions like Blue Gun and
Overscan but it still works fine.
Hope this helps,
Michael W. Towe
Falcon Video Productions
Santee Ca.
At this point I have the Sony TR-700 camera, VD 2.0 software (and 486 PC),
Mitsuibishi U82 S-VHS deck and NAD 21 monitor with powered stereo speakers.
I'm going to play with this awhile but I'll need a way to mix sound and add
titles to be half way respectable. I'm just unsure how much more to do with
the PC vs. solutions like Videonics' Edit Suite and MX-1 Mixer.
Thanks for any suggestions.
-jts
Mike:
>Well for what it is worth here is my 2 cents worth.<
Good to see ya again! 🙂 Thanks for your thoughts on this issue…
>This way you could digitize in high compression and get the time saving assets
of working NLE. Then you could go back to tape for your final assemble of the
tape. I see this as the only solution for those folks that work on long
projects such as weddings.<
So you're suggesting using non-linear for offline/workprint editing, and then
doing your final cut w/linear editing, right? I assume you'd also time-code
your raw footage so that you can generate an EDL…
>Now I know that some folks will say that video contains to much information.
You just can't compress it enough without quality loss to make it truly
managable. My answer to that is that…<
Somehow, I doubt anyone on THIS forum would say that! <g> As other folks on
this forum have already pointed out to me, professional systems already use
digitized footage. Maybe it's less that the compression will get better, than
it is that the hard drive sizes/throughput speeds will get better…
Best,
Tim
Hi Tim,
>> So you're suggesting using non-linear for offline/workprint editing, and
then doing your final cut w/linear editing, right? <<
Well I would suggest that under 1 circumstances. 1) If the fottage you have
to edit is to large to allow you to digitize at an online quality compresion
ration in relation to your amount of storage space.
>> I assume you'd also time-code your raw footage so that you can generate an
EDL…<<
Yep you are corect sir :-)). As a matter of fact I would not have anything
to do with a system that would not allow the capture of time code or allow the
export of EDL in common formats.
>> Maybe it's less that the compression will get better, than it is that the
hard drive sizes/throughput speeds will get better…<<
Well the throuput of the HD is not that big of a problem, in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong it can always get better. I think the bigger throughput
problem comes from the computer bus. The solution to this is to take the PC bus
out of the loop. The only system I know of that does that so far is the FAST VM
DP/R combo.
In addtion to all that I said in the last post…..I also don't think it
would be totaly unrealistic to see local broadcasters let the quatity level
drop a little bit as a trade off for the ability to edit in a non-linear
enviroment. I feel the time saving benifits ( which of course translate into
dollars a cents ) will far outway the small loss of quality. After all if
quality was the most important issue then all the local news crews would still
be luging around film cameras.
Oh it's nice to be back :-))
Michael W. Towe
Falcon Video Productions
Santee Ca.
Mike:
>Well the throuput of the HD is not that big of a problem, in my opinion. Don't
get me wrong it can always get better. I think the bigger throughput problem
comes from the computer bus.<
Okay, good point. I shouldn't blame the computer proper for the limitations of
older bus systems (which I, of course, have…) 🙁
>I also don't think it would be totaly unrealistic to see local broadcasters
let the quatity level drop a little bit as a trade off for the ability to edit
in a non-linear enviroment.<
Funny you should mention that–Lance Braithewaite, VIDEO's Tech. Editor,
mentioned much the same thing, and he's not happy about it at all. He feels
that the quality level of what's "acceptable" has been steadily dropping over
the last decade or so…
>Oh it's nice to be back :-))<
Good to have you back!
Tim
Tim:
I'd have to agree with John, 5-10 years is too long. I've heard numbers from
SMPTE people that suggest that even today more than 60% of all off-line editing
is done on a non-linear system. Non-linear on-line editing use, both
industrial and professional, is nowhere near that mark but is moving up.
John, I think you hit the nail on the head:
>>"It is going to take time for non-linear to replace traditional linear
editing systems, just because there are so many out there, but I would say that
every new purchase decision from here on out will have to factor in devices
like the FAST DP/R, NewTek Flyer, AVID, etc."<<
FYI, look today for a major joint venture announcement between a stalwart
analog manufacturer and one of the prominent digital video players. (I'll
confirm that it's official and come back on line…) It does suggest, though,
that digital technology is being thoroughly embraced.
Tim, you may be right about it taking that long for digital acquisition to
become commonplace. Ikegame and AVID have been working on the digital dockable
camera for a while now, but that is still quite cutting edge, IMHO.
Jeff Sauer
Hi Jeff, look forward to your "announcement" if it happens. BTW, from other
messages I take it that you are affiliated with New Media magazine? If so I
just thought Id drop you a note and say that I really like it.
-John
John:
The announcement I alluded to earlier was that Grass Valley Group will be
OEMing the Data Translation Media 100. GVG will be selling a completely
configured Media 100 (ie. CPU, hard drives, controller card, and a deck, I
might imagine) presumably as part of a larger GVG system. I can't say I know
more details than that, so maybe Matt Kingman (who I see here often) can fill
in more of the blanks.
I was suggesting earlier that this was a good example of how traditional
editors and editing practices are clearly moving toward digital technology.
GVG is one of the strongest names in traditional video editing and switching
and if they're "doing it," then those who aren't are behind the times. 😉
Jeff
You bet, that is a big announcement! Way to go Data Translations!
-John
Jeff:
>Tim, you may be right about it taking that long for digital acquisition to
become commonplace. Ikegame and AVID have been working on the digital dockable
camera for a while now, but that is still quite cutting edge, IMHO.<
Yes–I've also heard that Sony's announcing a digital VHS VCR this summer but,
w/a SLP of $2,000, I think it's gonna be awhile before folks buy that for the
home! Another interesting thing I've heard is from an artist/filmmaker friend
of mine–her editor suggested that she transfer her film footage for her latest
work to digital beta for editing…
Of course, my interest is still on digital for the low end industrial/ consumer
market–any ideas on when *that* will start to hit?
Tim