#User Letter to C=
59 messages in this thread
I mentioned this in a reply a while ago, but I guess no one noticed. So
here goes again.
I think that we – however many of us there are here and interested –
should write a group letter to CBM stating what we like and don't like
about what we've been doing and what we suggest. If it is well enough
reasoned and signed by enough people, it might (we can hope, anyway, can't
we?) do some good.
In order to get this started, I'd be more than happy to write a draft and
send it up here for comment etc. I'd be more than happy to oversee the
whole thing through however many drafts there are, if that's what it
takes.
Any thoughts? Interested? Huh? TELL ME!
Paul
Paul,
I'd like to see a first draft. 🙂
Chris
Couldn't hurt, let's see a draft then we can add input.
Richard -> via the Amiga 1000 AutoPilot
Good idea, Paul, worth a try.
First, praise, thank or congradulate them on the cooperation with NewTek.
Mention that their are other vendors who have a good potential for a
similar relationship. Second, present them with a list of concerns that
we have as users, in the positive light that we can all benefit.
Third, temper the message in that we aren't running the business, but may
see things that may not be obvious to them. Invite them into this group
(are we typical?) here to discuss these things, or at least listen in.
For my input, the main concerns here are C='s relationship with the 3rd
party developers (which I hear of), and their use of marketing in the big
picture, (which may be obvious to all except maybe those who should
know).
Stress the positive and the possibilities. The negatives have had enough
airplay, and serve no purpose except in mentioning.
Continuous improvementand mutual benefit, that's the key. Ain't TQ
wonderful?
If you need a hand with wordsmithing, holler.
… Nate, Emerald Video. Flyin' IFR on AP
Paul,
It is a good idea. The first thing on the list would be a serious study on
how the dealer base can be expanded.
Other things can be added as we see the pilot draft of the letter. Count
me as supporter.
Jorge Escobar/MEGABYTE PRODUCTIONS (…and AutoPilot, of course!)
>The first thing on the list would be a serious study on how the dealer base
can be expanded<
Interestingly, this is an ideal time for them to attack this, because
IBM/Compaq/Apple dealers are more open than ever before to looking at, well,
any line they can make a profit on. If Commodore can give them 20%-30% profit
margins, these dealers will look at it seriously. Within the last year, all 3
of the aforementioned big players cut dealer's margins tremendously AND started
direct-to-customer mail-order catalog selling, and dealers are frustrated. At
catalog-matching price (or list price, which is essentially the same), dealers
are typically making only in the range of 10% to 17% on most of these company's
popular products, which is not a good model for a successful retail business
(except maybe for very high volume and/or non-support environments) – and
they're competing directly against the manufacturer/supplier besides. The
trades tell us that the dealers are unhappy. Give them something they can make
money on, and you'll get their attention. This seems like an opportunity.
===Scott
May I take it by this post that you are interested in the User Letter to
CBM?
Paul
Paul,
I too would support a user letter. For the most part I have already
sent in three.
Peter
>May I take it by this post that you are interested in the User Letter to
CBM?<
I don't know how much good it can do… But if you'd like to include some of my
points, feel free. ===Scott
I want to make the letter as complete as possible, so I definitely expect
to include some of your points. But your points are not the point, if
you'll forgive the bad joke.
It is my hope that a letter coming out of CIS, so to speak, bearing the
signatures of a large group of people – perhaps including representatives
of companies maintaining a presence here, though they have not as of yet
expressed any interest and may have strong reasons for not doing so –
would bear more weight with C= than even many letters written by the
individuals of the group. And I expect that many people who would not
spend the time on a letter of their own would be willing to help with and
sign a group letter.
I have no idea how many Amigans there are on CIS, and of them how many
would be interested in such a project. As of yet I have gotten only nine
– thank you all! – definite votes of support, which while nice is not
quite the response I was hoping for. Maybe more people will get involved
when there is an actual letter to discuss.
So to anyone reading this: I am looking not only for opinions but for
votes of support. I need both. A perfect letter signed by few people and
an awful letter signed by many would probably be equally ineffective. The
ongoing discussion of what C= is doing right and wrong is great, but
silence on the group letter is like a vote against it, because there are
only so many of us.
Tell me if you're interested! Everyone!
Paul
You may certainly include my signature on any letter containing the points
discussed in this thread. (that makes 10)
//
-Karl \X/ Amiga and Autopilot: The *only* way to fly!
Paul,
If the letter does anything to get Commodore off their butts and marketing
the Amiga instead of letting users trying to sell machines for them I'm in
favor of it. Sign me up!
Paul,
Count me in.
David
Paul,
You got my vote.
CJ
Count me in for a vote of support on the letter. As for supporting the
contents of the letter, I'll give that after I've seen it.
I think we need to schedule a live conference reference this topic so that
we can hash out the main points of the letter and come to a consensus. Its a
great idea, but unfortunately Commodore won't listen unless it is done
correctly. Releasing the letter to the press (computer mags, SJ Mercury News,
Online Today, etc.) might force them to notice the letter and reply. This has
to be done correctly though, as to not offend Commodore too much. I speak from
experience.
To clear up a point for everyone: obviously I don't want a commitment to a
signature now, before the letter has been formed and reviewed. I'm sorry
if I was unclear on that – I just want votes of support for the idea,
indications that people are willing to take part in the process.
And Todd: you are right about releasing the letter to the press – pros and
dangers. The idea hadn't even occured to me. But I'm not sure that a
conference would be absolutely neccessary. Certainly it would be nice,
but expensive. I'll start posting my thoughts on different issues and
inviting response and we'll just have to go from there.
Paul
Paul,
You've got my vote of support, but not necessarily my signature, until I
see the final product.
-sja
This sounds like a good idea to me. I'll consider signing on review.
I'm interested. C= (Dionne) has sent form letters to all new owners asking
for feedback so it might get some attention. I see from Mark Manes mess. a
cynical view of Jim Dionne & crew.
Gracia
Cynical? No. Not sure how you got that. I just happen to know who makes
decisions. Dionne is a good man, and one that deeply cares about the
future of the Amiga.
It is my opinion that he is not the problem. The lack of ideas is not the
problem. The lack of vision from the people above him *is* the problem.
I work with Commodore on a daily basis, my comments have merit. I am not
being cynical Garcia.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
I am interested to write a GOOD letter with all the seriousness that
can be written. Not the same old bashing at Commodore.
So I guess you've got a vote, if we make a good letter.
Jorge Escobar/MEGABYTE PRODUCTIONS (…and AutoPilot, of course!)
I'll be signing too.
-Sean
Having been involved with Amigas (sometimes more intimately than I care to
tell) since the advent of the 500, I have watched C='s marketing over the
years with disappointment, followed by hope at the advent of a new
campaign, followed by disappointment…
I would definitely support a letter to C= describing the desires and needs
of users and developers, perhaps with gentle suggestions and possibly even
_gentle_ rejoinders (we are looking for their support).
I like the Idea. But reserve my vote until I see the letter.
Charlie Badalati
APing from Wurselen,Germany
Sounds fine, I'd just (naturally) want to see the letter before authorizing
adding my name. I have to admit I don't put much stock in this sort of thing.
I figure, if they care about user feedback, they are already monitoring related
public forums like this one, and know what we're saying. If they don't care
about that feedback, then the letter won't matter much anyway. But sure, it
can't hurt. ===Scott
I'm in…
Bob Comer — Cruising the nets on AutoPilot
Paul:
Put my name down…
-Jonathan
I'm interested.
Steve
You got my support, anything that might help.
….John
Count me in too!
Paul,
Put my name on the list too. I'd be happy to contribute to a group letter.
Provided, of course, I think it's constructive rather than just critical.
-Dave (via AutoPilot)
Paul,
May I ask who you would write this letter too? If you are writing to Jim
Dionne, you are wasting your time. Jim Dionne, and a lot of the people at
Commodore Business Machines know what to do, or at least know what they
would like to do. However, there is this one single person who makes
_all_ major Commodore decisions. This man is Medhi Ali, and from what I
can tell he doesn't give a damn about The Amiga or Commodore's future.
Of course this is just my opinion.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
I hesitate to ask, but could you elaborate? Who is Medhi Ali, and why
does he make all major decisions? Why doesn't Jim? And even if Jim did
make all decisions and knew what he wanted, a well executed letter would
still help let him in on what we, the users, would like to see.
This is very strange and disturbing. I've never even heard Ali's name
mentioned before.
Paul
Medhi Ali is the Chief Financial Officer at Commodore International. Jim
Dionne takes his orders from him. I am quite sure, given a budget Dionne
has the ability to make decisions. However, there hasn't been a budget to
speak off for some time.
I have spoken to Mr. Dionne on various occasions and feel rather strongly
that he understands the wants/needs and wishes of the average Amiga owner.
You should send him anything you send to Medhi Ali. I was just pointing
out that things are not always as they seem. Decisions are often not made
with anything but the "numbers" in mind.
Please also understand that I am speaking based on my personal beliefs
about Commodore.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Mr. Dionne has done exceptionally well at following Ali's and Gould's orders,
to the extent that he has had the longest tenure as Commodore USA's president.
When sales went up under his predecessors, the found themselves in the street.
Obviously, they were not following orders from Ali and Gould. Why Ali and
Gould want to keep American sales down, I don't know. But it does seem to be
their intent based on my observations. I don't envy Jim Dionne's
position…he's had to walk a tightrope. Weathering Commodore bashing from all
sides (users, press, industry, etc) while trying to keep his job.
If we with this letter to receive more than a quick reply from CBM, we must
properly orchestrate its release into the press and obtain as many users
signatures a possible. Maybe we should be conversing with Amiga users on other
online services (Portal, Genie, etc.) and in FidoNet. Then the letter should
bear their signatures also…of course we need to work out the logistics of
obtaining their actual signatures or the electronic equivalent.
I will volunteer to assist in this endeavor. I know my user group will
support it. Let's apply the same vision we expect from Commodore to this and
we might actually get somewhere.
We could have signatures sent to a user group P.O. Box, they could act
as a clearing house. A fax machine might also be a good idea.
Richard -> via the Amiga 1000 AutoPilot
Fax might be the most practical way to go.
Paul
Count me in for a vote of support Paul.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . donovan . . .
If I may inject a beginner's (i.e., probably stupid) point of view:
Perhaps "Ali and Gould" (I haven't a clue who they are) are trying to
"keep American sales down" because they're waiting to see where the
American (largely driven by Microsoft) market is going: It doesn't sound
likely to me that the A1200 and the A4000 were developed by anyone who
doesn't "give a damn" about the Amiga platform; and I might point out that
— at least at _my_ local dealership — the number of European magazines
just raving about the new AGA chipset, _and_ the amount of European
software coming in daily (if _Real_3D_Version_2_ only does _half_ the
things its ads claim it will, we're going to have a serious shot at
creating animation that is _indistinguishable_ from real-life video),
leads one to believe that the Amiga is _real_ solid … everywhere but in
the USA. (And I read right here on CIS that Commodore has publicly thrown
in with NewTek, so is Commodore _really_ ignoring the American market?)
Let me tell you one thing I know as an absolute fact: Commodore has
approached the company I work for to be a Value-Added-Reseller (or VAR);
the demonstration given, which involved Scala Multimedia Development soft-
ware, was _exactly_ on the mark of a product my employer is having some
trouble getting to work _with_a_PC_as_the_controller_; and as a matter of
fact, the whole sales/engineering staff involved with this particular
project _is_ rethinking the platform, and wondering how they're going to
sell "upper management" on using a "toy computer" as the system driver.
I'll be willing to pitch my support toward a "User Letter to C="; but
let's _all_ keep in mind that the Earth is a whole lot bigger than the
good ole US of A, and that Commodore just _might_ be looking at a larger
"picture" than any of us can imagine.
I don't know much about the corporate structure of C=, but isn't Jim
Dionne the CEO of C= USA? (And probably on his way out, given the average
life expectancies of C= CEOs lately.) Doesn't he have at least some kind
of control over the budget? And who's the head of C= generally? Wouldn't
he be the person to contact?
Paul
What might help is if we get the Amiga people over on Genie and BIX in
on this.
Richard -> via the Amiga 1000 AutoPilot
Those profits can only be "offered" to dealers if the Amiga can be sold to
customers. I think that is, at best, questionable.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Well, Apple dealers would be the ones to target. They have experience in
selling the "alternative" solution. They did a good job at convincing many
people that they didn't need an IBM compatible, that the Mac had advantages,
even years ago when the Mac was not so well established (it was these efforts
that helped establish it). Now Apple has made it far less profitable to be an
Apple dealer. Yes, Commodore needs the right products with the right software
at the right price, and I'm not saying that's not a hurdle in itself. But if
they can get that together, they'll still need a marketing channel to make the
most of it, and for the first time in years, there's a mainstream channel that
would be receptive to it, imo. ===Scott
Well, I wish you luck… I am sad to see the current state of affairs in
this market.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
>I am sad to see the current state of affairs in this market.<
As am I. You may have heard the joke about Wang and IBM, and I'm afraid it may
be frighteningly close to the truth for Amiga. ("What's the difference between
IBM and Wang? About six months.") The one thing Amiga has going for it is that
they actually do have some unique and useful technology.
>Well, I wish you luck…<
It's not for me to try (unless C= hires me). It's just something I hope C= can
see and manage to take advantage of, because I like the system. I have to
expend enough effort just to keep my own ventures going, I can't save C= too!
But I'll take that luck, and apply it to those ventures. And same to you.
===Scott
By the way, hope everyone noticed that Apple in its latest corporate
report registered an 18% drop in profits. Sure, C= laid off a few
staffers, but with the possible exception of Microsoft, that's an
industry-wide phenomenon. Computers are a cut-throat business, right now.
Do you have any idea how Mac sales are going?
Paul
Well, I hear Mac sales continue to be solid; as for reduced earnings, it's
just that Apple, like other computer makers, is into heavy price-cutting
because of extreme competition.
Could the Amiga be made to run an alternative OS like Windoze, as part
of their Amiga DOS? I guess they've tried with the BB devices but it was
always so exspensive.
Amigas don't sell themselves like PC's do, Normally they're not even
considered as an alternative anymore than an Atari or SGI.
For Video and CGI the Amigas the way to go, Even Mac people know that.
The Amiga is many generations ahead in development of BQ Video
applications. To bad they are ported to other platforms so quickly when
they become succesful on the amiga.
….John
Yes, in short – however, Windows applications expect an 86xxx series CPU
and will not run otherwise. WindowsNT, on the other hand, is planned to be
able to run on a variety of playforms – and 86xxx applications will be run
on the "alien" machines by virtue of an emulation scheme that is built
directly into WindowsNT. The current plans call for RISC machines and so
on. Because the bottom line ops are based on emulation in many cases, that
means that IF it were to be ported to the Amiga, you'd need a VERY fast
Amiga; 25 mhz '040 machines are probably bottom-of-the-line for potential
hosts; even then emulation of high-end 86xxx CPU's would be, well,
"painful".
Other operating systems – Unix, OS-9, MacSystem7, etc – can and even have
already been, ported or run under emulation, as you're probably aware. It
is clear that even with the additional software base provided, these
things are not enough to keep the machine going. Consider; we have 486
level bridges; we've had B&W mac stuff for a long while, color Mac is now
coming online; the Amiga is still in a major backwater, some would go
further and call it a "slump" (looking at CBM's recent numbers, "slump" is
what *I* would call it). Although extending the machine in this manner
certainly adds utility for some users, its not a general solution that
could "bring the Amiga back". The only thing that I can think of that
would make the Amiga a viable platform is the availability of powerful
application software on a par with the PC/windows systems. And between CBM
and general resistance to funding new development in the US, I don't think
it will happen.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
There is an OS that could be ported rather painlessly to the Amiga, and
give it a *major* shot in the arm when it comes to the "respectability
quotient." If CBM purchased from NeXT the rights to a port of NeXTStep to
the Amiga, the Amiga would get major shot in the arm as far as visibility
goes. Since NeXT is in sore need of $$ right now, and since the Amiga and
the NeXT are so similar hardware wise, it would be a major boost for the
Amy and for NeXT. The Amiga definitely has the horsepower to run
NeXTstep, and NeXTstep has a very strong niche in custom software
development. Combined with the Amiga's low cost, and it could be a *very*
attractive proposition to those folks that need a NeXT, but can't afford
the CPU.
John
John,
That's actually a rather fascinating idea – but I can hear it now "Yeah,
the ded computer buys a dead OS" – or something similar. An orphan OS is
definitely a two-edged sword.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
But it is an OS with name recognition, and a strong niche separate from
the Amiga's traditional markets. This means an increase in the userbase.
John
Name recognition – a strong association with failure, you mean? I dunno,
can't see it.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Commodore currently gives excellent profit margins, but the mail order
folks eat it up.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Hi Paul,
Sounds like a good idea to me. You can count me in. I don't know how much I
can contribute, as I am not as CBM literate as most of the Amiga users on CI$,
but am willing to throw in my 2 cents if I feel it is a contribution to the
discussion.
Edson (!!agimA na ni deppart m'I !pleH) Gray
Montreal,PQ. Canada
Paul,
I read that new A4000 purchasers were recieving a letter from C= asking for
just that. I'd like to see your ideas and /or first draft and run from there.
I'm sure that you'd receive plenty of comments. Perhaps more than you'd like!
8). Were'nt you the one that caught all the heat when you responded to my
multimedia Mac posting. I thought you were right on the money . . . if that
was you.
Matt