#BetacamSP or MII?
43 messages in this thread
I am looking into getting some new decks. Due to the new pricing of the
BetacamSP and MII lines, I am considering the purchase of one of these formats.
Can anyone give any recomendations as to which format is the best.
Specifically, I am considering the new Sony UVW 1800, and the new Panasonic
AUW35H. The specs seem very close so any feedback from someone who has used
either format will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Adib
Well, we use both BetaCam (75's , 50's, 35,s) , and MII, at work. So far, I
would say go with the Sony decks, and buy them from a local dealer… or a
close one! We use the Betacam's more, and will soon buy some of the
Beta-lites….over the MII. Why? We haven't seen a Panasonic rep in more
than a year. Our Sony guys come by to check on us, and have promised to help
us out if there are any problems, what-so-ever…and so far, there haven't been
many!
But enough about tape… why aren't you going Non-linear?
GLEN
Thanks for the info Glen. I live in the Detroit area and Betacam is the
dominant format here. However, unlike what you have experienced, the Panasonic
rep for my region has been extremely helpful, and the dealer is close by.
Looking over the specs for both makes, it appears that the MII decks which are
going for under $10,000 match or are very close to the specs for the Pro 2000
series BetacamSP decks (the MII's beat the UVW line in almost every
measurement). Since you have both decks, does one format have better image
retention (through multiple generations) than the other?
What I am trying to get at is whether I should go with a less established
format (at least in the Metro Detroit area) such as MII, or go ahead with the
Betacam line since a 1 or 2 db difference in signal to noise ratio (for video
specs) is no big deal.
Also, from the information I have on both makes, the MII has 4 audio channels,
a full blown 256 field TBC and better audio signal to noise ratio. But then
again, I have to find a duplication house that can accept MII – so far I have
not, but the Panasonic rep says he is working on that.
I want to go Non-linear pronto! But it is my understanding that the Flyer won't
be available until October. I have some work to do between now and then. Is
my information inaccurate? is the Flyer going to be available sooner?
From what I have heard, the flyer should hit the shelves within the Fall of
94…not too far away.
Everyone around here says this about SONY…"They take care of us… and they
think ahead."
I guess a good story is the NIKON line of still cameras… you can still fit
the lenses built 20 years ago on the new cameras of today. Panasonic doesn't
seem to have that mindset. Granted, in a few years, you more than likely won't
use tape, but it still pays to think ahead.
You can take a tape shot on an old Betacam SP docked Sony 5 camera, and stick
it into one of there digital betacam units of today. A digital image will come
out of the back of the deck! Sony seems to take care of its clients.
Now, I don't know how long those low end betas will hold up under 12 hour a day
use 6 days a week… we'll find out soon, but until then, I don't know.
As far a picture quality, well, that's a toss up. Both hold up to several
passes. I am not an engineer. I couln't tell you much, other than both have
broadcast specs.
If it were me, I'd get by for now, realise that more folks use Betacam (and
that client is always going to want to go over to ???? for a dub), and buy
several FLYERS when they come out!
Once you go non-linear, you never go back!
GLEN
Glen,
Since I don't have MII, all I can do is echo the satisfaction with Sony. My
UVW-1800 developed a rather nasty problem at about 130 hours, after I'd had it
roughly 2 months. I called Sony, they said call the dealer and ask for a
warranty exchange; I did; no problems, no hassles, new deck without
questions. That's important. Also, one of the primary reasons I decided to
upgrade in the first place was because clients were asking for Betacam. No
matter what the quality of MII, they were not asking for that, and would not
have been satisfied by any amount of explaining that MII looks as good; they
knew what they wanted, and I wanted to make 'em happy.
My .02,
Jerry
Jerry,
That's one of the finest $.02 worth of information I have heard! So let me get
this straight – New UVW 1800 no questions asked?
Since I am looking at the exact same deck, how do you like the image and sound
quality? Did you get the Jog Shuttle and TBC options? How do you like the
TBC?
Are you using Amilink or some other edit controller? What percentage of your
clients would you say really care what format you edit in?
Sorry for all the questions, but I am really excited that you have the exact
deck that I am looking at and would like to hear any comments you have to say.
Thanks in advance.
Adib
To jump in here, you said something about what format do clients want to work
with? Well, I would guess that more than 80% would use Betacam SP. I would
also say, and this just may be the market I have been around, but more people
will edit in D2 than those who edit in MII.
GM
Yeah, sounds right. Around me it looks more like 100% BetacamSP and probably
more people editing in D5 than MII.
Panasonic really goofed up on the marketing and promotion of their machines.
It's a shame, since the hardware is extremely competitive. But I guess Sony's
marketing people learned their lesson with their consumer Beta decks and it's
total anihalation by the VHS format.
Adib
Duh.. what's D5?
Paul
It's Panasonics new digital format which is supposidly all ready of HDTV. From
what I hear, they had a room dedicated to D5 at NAB. Their rep sent me a bunch
of info on it, but I haven't had a chance to sift through it all.
>Duh.. what's D5?
Its the Component version of D3, Panasonics Digital format.
16:9, "HDTV", and digital betacam killer according to Panasonic
IMHO I don't belve them.'
Geir Molstad, FAMO as, Fax +47 22357797
Paul, on your "16:9, "HDTV", and digital betacam killer according to Panasonic.
IMHO I don't belve them", you are wise not to since Sony has their BetaCam-D
out now which is a fully compatible 16:9 R/G/B system. Expensive as h**l, but,
with the full DigiCam installation, is capable of 1100 lines of resolution with
an appropriate video chain operating in full R/G/B/S mode. Not something that
the normal user would use for time shifting the evening news <grin>.
Vince
Here's what the literature says about D5:
It uses 8 bit quantization and 14.7kHZ sampling to digitally sample the video
and lay 6 tracks of information.
I really don't understand it very well but I assume it's something like DAT but
for video.
Adib,
No problem on the questions; gosh knows I've _asked_ my share of 'em on these
forums!
That's right; I called Sony first when I had the problem. I talked to a
techie who asked about 10 questions about whether I'd checked this or that, and
when he finished he told me to call the dealer I got it from and tell them that
Sony recommended a warranty exchange. I told the dealer this, and they said
'no problem, send it in…' Now, I have spent about $50K with this particular
mail order house over the past year, so that may have played a role in the ease
with which this problem was handled. In any event, I will continue to do
business with them confidently. BTW, while we're on the subject of quality
service, I highly recommend Videotek scopes for the same reason. I had a
problem with my WFM, sent it out on FedEx on a Monday morning from MS to PA,
and had it back in my console by noon on Wednesday. In addition, Videotek
called me several times, keeping me informed on every step of the process.
It's been a long time since I was so impressed by the concern of a
manufacturer.
I'm thrilled with the image and sound quality of my decks. I have a UVW-1600
source deck and the UVW-1800 edit deck. I did not get the TBC control or the
jog-shuttle option. My TAO Editizer interfaces perfectly with it for editing
control, and I'm building one of the TBC control panels myself with parts from
Radio Shaft.
On clients caring, just before I bought the decks, I had 2 clients for nice
jobs specify Betacam SP up front. When I priced the rental for the equipment
to do the jobs, I quickly elected to just purchase. Since then, other clients
notice an improvement, but wouldn't know the name of any format from any other.
Based on everything I've heard and read, MII is at least as good as Betacam SP.
But to someone who was a retailer that clung to Betamax while VHS took over,
quality ain't everything! <g> I was one of those retailers…
Jerry
Wow, that sounds like great service, the kind you should get when spending the
kind of cash these things require. I don't think Panasonic has a replacement
plan at all. They promise to have a replacement deck for you within 48hours so
that you can use that while your actual deck is getting repaired – I like the
NEW deck idea far better. is this total replacement plan only for the first
year or what? Do they have an extended warranty plan?
Building a TBC control panel by yourself with parts from Radio Joke? Remeber,
those guys were peddling Trash 80's only a few years ago. Seriously though,
that's pretty impressive that you have the hardware know-how to put something
like that together.
Thanks for the prompt reply. This is a great forum isn't it?!
Adib
Adib,
I say literally that I would be nowhere close to the level of the video biz I
am without these forums.
I don't know if Sony has any standard policy on these exchanges or not, but I
sure did like the way they handled it.
Although it involves quite a bit of soldering, the TBC control circuit is
really quite simple, just repetetive for engineering the different adjustments.
Jerry
I agree, these forums are tremendous. In fact, I have found no other forum
comparable to Compuserve. America On-Line has a nice interface but it has
nothing for the video junkie – much less the 3D enthusiast.
I understand the replacement problem! A little over a year ago, I bought a JVC
BRS-822U (SVHS) deck to let me do singleframing at home. Well, the day I
unpacked it, I didn't think the deck was "right." Well, I ended up having to
send it off to the JVC service center. Well, It came back "fixed," but yet,
the same problem was happening. Well, I repacked it, sent it off again, got it
back, and the problemkept showing up. Well, it has been to the service center 3
times. It still is a dud! I guess I just wasted my six thousand bucks! The
problem: In full speed record, single framing record, when ever, it glitches
the tape, creases the tape, and sometimes just leaves holes in the signal…I
mean nothing is on the tape…no audio, no time code… nothing! Also, one of
the audio tracks just starts producing noise at +3 dB for no reason at random
points! But they won't give me a new one! That'll be the last time I ever
buy JVC for a long great while!
Sony has never acted that way towards me!
Later,
GM
Glenn,
I don't blame you; that would definitely sour the JVC flavor for me. too!
Service matters in all products, but especially the ones that folks like us buy
to earn livings with, yet (in my case, at least) are forced to work with very
limited budgets. $6K is a lot of money for a VCR to me, and I take such
decisions very seriously.
Jerry
Yep! If I knew the president of JVC was on-line here…well I'd tell him
to…….. well, you know! I do feel ripped off!
GM
Glen,
You SHOULD feel ripped off.
Jerry
I would sue them. You're out $6,000. If they are going to waste your money,
you should waste their time.
At the very least you would get their attention (the right persons attention).
Well, My step father is a media lawyer…and even then, it would cost way too
much. I wish I could do something! After all, I just want to record!
GM
Yeah, that's the problem with trying to take the litigation route. But, their
is no excuse in my book for that kind of treatment. At the very least you
should write a letter to their CEO and explain you situation. Or at leat the
head of their U.S. operations.
JVC is a huge company and I am sure they would rather give you what you paid
for and not have their named smeared all over your area, compuserve, and even
the Ethernet. Let the CEO know about the fact that you will post negative
messages about JVC to the very people they want to target their hardware to.
If all fails, call their 1-800 number everytime you get a chance. Normally it
costs $1 or more for each call made on a 800 number. Get your money back a
dollar at a time if necessary.
Make copies of all these forum messages and write letters to any magazines that
may apply. Send copies of all of these letters to them. If they see you are
raising stink with the places they advertise and on places like this, they may
want to shut you up!
I have had the same problem with JVC repair centers. I had a problem about two
weeks after purchase. I have one right here in Houston that I drove over to. I
still took them about 6 weeks to repair the problem. And when I got it back, it
was still broken and had a new problem. I took it back and after a few more
weeks got it back. It has worked fine since then, but the down time was
unbelievable.
Yes, when I lived in Dallas (now College Station) I thoo}gh that the Houston
center would be great! But now, they only fix "consumer" decks! Chicago is
the closest around! Uggg! I'll just have to get a flyer!
GM w/exit
Glen,
I can't argue with your logic and the fact that SONY does take care of its
customers. Obviously when someone is about to make of $25K purchase, he/she
better make sure their is service and dependability behind the product.
I have spoken with the duplication house we use (these guys have everything
under the sun) and they also recommend Betacam SP.
I wish I could get by with what I have, but S-VHS just can
't hold up through 4-5 generations, and thats what I need for the new projects
I have comming up.
I am planning on getting the Flyer as soon as it becomes available ( I called
Newtek and they said late October – dealers will have Beta versions in July for
us to drool on). Also, I have noticed that Micropolis has a new line of 9.1
Gig high speed drives (three of these babies and a Flyer should do me just
fine!) available for Flyer applications.
Your input has been very helpful!
Thanks
Adib
I guess you better make friends with a dealer and have him order two Flyers, if
you know what I mean!
GM
I hear you loud and clear, but I think I will start with one Flyer and work my
way up.
These past two years have been very exciting as far as video production is
concerned and I am really interested to see the impact of the Flyer.
Again, thank you for all the valuable information you have provided.
Adib
Today I made a calc of how much video can be stored on the flyer w/o blowing
all the money in the world: 18 hours for $105,000. Not too bad for the
$$$$…still less than two D2's!
GM
That's the beauty of technology. Not to mention the fact that the amount you
came up with will probably go down 8% every four months.
Adib,
I have it on reliable authority that the MII decks shown at NAB will provide
much better video (and audio) performance than the Bcam counterparts. Most
people will tell you that MII is a dead format. I still use it (as well as
BetaSP) so I hope the naysayers are wrong. I use MII as my edit deck and source
on Betacam. The results are outstanding even though I am using Toaster as my
switcher (it degrades the signal somewhat because it works in composite instead
of true component). I manage to retain a good deal of quality by using a
composite-to-component transcoder at Toaster's output. If you decide to go with
either of the component formats (BetcamSP or MII) or any combination thereof, I
suggest you look into a component transcoder for the Toaster.
Frank
You'll find far more compatability with Betacam than MII. Its almost a
universal thing in post-production houses. But, if you buy an MII machine,
let me know, I have a 60 minute tape that has a 45 second animation on it,
and I'll never use the tape again, you want it?
-Steve
If I buy MII, I will take it! Thanks.
Adib
I read in VTU that MII was slightly better quality and allowed for more
generations of copying without much signal loss than BetaSP. But BetaSP
seems to be more popular. I would go with the technically superior or
more versatile format (which seems to be MII to my unexperienced eyes).
-Chris
I also prefer technical superiority, in fact the MII decks that sell for the
same amount as the Sony UVW line weigh 30 pounds more. This is not just lead
weight but rather the fact that better, more durable hardware is used (they are
built on the same chasis as their top of the line models).
HOWEVER, no one in my area (at least duplication houses) accept MII masters. I
am waiting to see if the Panasonic rep can convince one of the major houses
around here to invest in an MII deck.
What you have got to factor in is how much down time you can put up with. MI
MII is a great format, but both Panasonic and JVC do not have very good
reputations for reliability. That is one of the main reasons that Sony
continues to dominate with the Beta SP format in the real world where
reliability equals money. Just ask any NBC engineer about the legacy of M, MI,
and MII format machines they have had to deal with. Or how hundreds of
Panasonic engineers (they entire company including Japan) was at Barcel- onna
moving hundreds of machines in and out of duty like musical chairs to keep the
operation going. Hey they make fine pictures, but they just don't hold up like
Sony (or Ampex) Beta decks. HOWEVER, I don't have much experience yet with the
new UVW's and they are definitely industrial decks compared compared with the
BVW, but they are built on the same chassis system as the 9800/9850 Hi8 decks
which have held up great to constant abuse for us. So I am not worried. If you
decide to go MII, just be sure that you have good local service and can put up
with some down time. And don't buy the JVC versions to try to save some
money… IMHO
Great comments – specially regarding the olympics. I was not aware of the
fragility of the decks. But you are right, Panasonic does not have the same
service as Sony, and that by itself means a lot. In fact, I have three
Panasonic AG-1960 SVHS decks, and I was interested to know the signal to noise
ration of the video signals. Their literature – including the manuals – only
specified audio SN ration. So I called their tech people out in Texas, and
they didn't know! In fact they made it sound as if they only handled calls for
1960's because someone was forcing them.
I have never owned a Professional Sony product, but none of the MANY consumer
and prosumer Sonly products I have owned have ever failed me. Two of the local
dealers here carry both MII and BetaSP. At the begining I was leaning toward
MII – technically they offer more, however, after a lot of thought and
excellent feedback from forum users just like yourself, I am now leaning toward
BetaSP. Everyone uses them, and I am not looking forward to spending $25,000
on a setup that is not going to generate a master accepted by duplication
houses. And I do not want to end up like the Beta users who ended up with nice
decks in a VHS dominated market – No movies, no nothing – but nice picture and
sound quality.
Price wise, I think I have gotten the local guys to give me a very competitive
price, in fact I called a very large and very competitive New York dealer from
whom I have purchased tons of stuff, and their price was higher!
JVC? from what I have been reading on this forum, their equipment is the kiss
of death. They should stick to the low-end audio gear and TV sets they are
famous for.
Panasonic is not as bad as JVC are they???
Adib
Adib, on your "Panasonic is not as bad as JVC are they??? ", worse, but this is
only my personal opinion based on my individual experience with them. Before
you consider anything of this level of investment, do a close personal
inspection of real world video on a known monitor and validate the chroma
coincidence of the image produced by the output signal since this is where the
real performance value is going to make or break you. Multiburst resolution
checks are monochrome signals, from which frequency response specifications
come. Black field is where S/N specs come from and full field color bars are
the basis for chroma S/N and phase modulation specs. The individual
specifications taken separately do not accurately indicate what the real world
performance of a product will actually be which is where performance is most
important. Again, this is only one person's personal opinion but I just
thought I'd toss it in since we've been burned in the past.
Vince (Still uses the Sony BVU-950 U-Matic SP machines)
Your statement makes sense. Numbers alone do not tell the whole story (of
course don't tell that to a Mustang owner).
Panasonc's worst than JVC huh? From what I have gathered on this forum it
sounds like no one but Sony deserves to be in business.
Adib