CompuServe Thread

>> I think that all of us Amiga users should stand by Commodore >> by buying their stocks in this time of need. Only sharehokders trying to sell would see that money. Only if C= releases _new_ shares would they see that money. That is not likely to happen. Buying C= stock would make a lot of people who are desperate to get out very happy! >> We should get together with the people in Commodore and request >> that they run the company in a profitable way. "Maybe if we tried to sell the computers for a profit!" I think it's a matter of moderate demand combined with no credit to buy parts. Unless the creditors work something out, it's beyond C='s control how they run the company. It's 100% in the creditors hands now. Monday is the big day I guess. >> We need to spread the word about the machine which is superior >> in design to both the PC and the Mac. That is the core of the problem. C= never did any good marketing. Had they marketed the machine and gotten it established in mainstream, they could have had the money to do the R&D… PC's and Mac's don't have the graphics chipsets yet, but they are _way_ ahead on raw speed, sound, networking. This doesn't mean the Amiga can't do these things, it's just that Apple and others spend 100's of millions of dollars every year on R&D. They are now beginning to see the payoff of all the money. How much did CBM spend last year on R&D? Was it 10% what Apple spent? Expect to see SGI's deal with Nintendo bring cheap, powerful chip sets to the wide market. I always hear this myth that the Amiga is better designed than the PC or the Mac. It was when it came out, it was three years ago, but C= has not kept up recently, and the compitition has. These other companies are delivering computers with full 64 bit data paths, extensive DMA, screaming RISC CPUs, 100Mhz clocks, PCI, often for less money than the A4000! I really hope that C= gets to introduce the A5000 and that they do well with it. If CBM survives they had better learn their lesson and do the R&D the Amiga owners deserve to keep the machine up and start setting the leading point of technology again! Here's hoping for the best… —– Andrew

Mike, I have the answer to the "Amiga" problem. It doesn't require a new OS, nor even new shiny graphics. I does require a consistant and effectively managed Commodore and it requires a new outlook from the user-base. Half of Commodore's PR problems is caused by the users of the machine who seem to enjoy bashing a company that they know nothing about. I have had people come into our store and talk about the bugs in the Amiga. Typical comments are "Well I am going to wait to buy an Amiga until Commode-door can get the bugs out of its OS", or other trash similiar to that. Each of you have met users like this. One of them can ruin many potential sales. There was a President of Commodore US who did know what he was doing. His name was Harry Copperman. He gave us Gold Service, UNIX, The Federal Systems Group, and the education program. The problem was that he was not given the leeway for a long enough period of time to finish the turn-around at Commodore. He also couldn't do enough to dislodge the garbage that worked in the sales department The Amiga is a better machine and with renewed investment in OS development and continued hardware development the machine can become viable and even move more into the mainstream. This is my list of items that the company should consider doing immediately with the technology they already have. 1. DOS Compatibility built in standard in every desktop machine. (100% hardware emulation) 2. Emplant as a standard option. 3. CD32 Standard 4. Paying for development and release of mainstream software productivity titles. Including Borland and Microsoft products. 6. Develop a sweet-heart arrangement with warehouse stores with enough profit and co-op advertising to interest the warehouse stores. 6. Changing the company name. The name Commodore has to go. A new company with a new outlook and a new viewpoint, and a new logo. Perhaps even a new machine name. Repackage the technology. This will be the single most effective thing Commodore could do to 'fix' their image. I think the Commodore as we know it must now die. A new Commodore should rise from the ashes.. and become the new leader in multimedia and desktop based power computers. Just a thought. -mark= Otto Pilot Engaged..

" I think that all of us Amiga users should stand by Commodore by buying their stocks in this time of need. We should get together with the people in Commodore and request that they run the company in a profitable way." Well, either call me a fool or an optimist, but I instructed my broker to buy 400 shares if it's selling on the Pacific exchange Monday. "There must be room in the PC market to sustain the Amiga. Clear-cut planning and efficient execution of such a plan are required to keep this market alive." I think there is room in the market, but it would be extremely difficult for the Amiga to become a major force. I think one of the strenghts of the Amiga is that it is a very good home computer, and just plain FUN! Sure it has it's advantages with Video, but to make it appealing to the masses, CBM needs to market it as a good all around home computer, that has advantages over the normal PC or Mac. "We need to spread the word about the machine which is superior in design to both the PC and the Mac. Commodore needs to look into the evolving technologies in order to continue to be competitive. I think Amiga Exec and AmigaDos and Intuition are years ahead of MS Windows." Well I agree with you here, but you are preaching to the converted <g>. And besides, although the users should play an active part in spreading the word, we can't do it alone. CBM has to be the main force in seeing the word gets out. The only way they can do that is to start spending some of their money on advertising, rather than the CEO's paycheck. "We need to get down to brass tacks and start writing the 'Killer Apps' which are necessary to make or break a computer system. I would like to see the Amiga survive. I am prepared for any outcome in this scary scenario. But I think it is in 'our' power to possibly alter the outcome. Are Amiga users fatalistic or are we the positive optimist?" "Killer Apps" are OK, but first I think we need to develope some of the normal applications where the Amiga is lacking. For example, I use the program "Phasar" for my personal finances. Although it's adequate to take care of balancing the checkbook, it sucks as far as a personal finance program goes. Hell, I had a much better personal finance program on my Atari 800. So we need to improve the normal applications that most people would want on a great computer system. "Is this a possibility, or is it a simple dream? Only you can answer this question. Each Amiga owner must take stock of what it is which draws them to this 'lovable' machine. Think hard, and reply if you like…." I think it is a good possibility, but it will take the co-ordinated efforts of CBM, developer's, and other Amiga supporters to make it a reality. Whatever happened to that Amiga developer's group that was suppose to get together and discuss future directions of Amiga software? I can't think of the name of it right off hand, but I remember reading about it in Amazing some time ago. Maybe that needs to be pursued more than it has been. It's good to read your thoughts about this Mike. I just hope all developers will be as optimistic in seeing the Amiga survive and grow. // John (Speeding on the Information Superhighway) \X/ Mercury@ins.infonet.net

When I upgraded from a 2500 to a 3000 in 1990, I remember telling my wife something like, "This computer is about 3-4 years ahead of anything the PC clone makers have to offer. I was uncannily correct. Four years later, I sit with my Pentium and my A4000 on adjacent desks and muse that the Amiga really _was_ about 4 years ahead. Four years later, we have the 4000, which in terms of both OS and hardware was passed early in 1993 by the average PC clone — the PC market sped ahead while the Amiga, at best, coasted along with the engine stalled. I hate to be gloomy, and I still have the highest respect for my Amiga, but I _do_ think it may be too late for the Amiga to ever "catch up" in the eyes of the rest of the industry. As for the killer apps, the Amiga doesn't even have a good word processor. ProWrite and Final Copy are the equivilent of Windows text editors as compared to Word or WordPerfect. What the Amiga needs is some outside expertise — Word needs to be ported to the Amiga. I don't think the Amiga programming community has the necessary experience to write killer apps outside of graphics/animation/video. Dave

>I think that all of us Amiga users should stand by Commodore by buying their >stocks in this time of need. This would not put any money in Commodore's pockets, unless they issue new stock. >We should get together with the people in Commodore and request that they >run the company in a profitable way. I think that's what the Commodore Shareholder Movement is all about, and they're doing a great job so far of getting Commodore's ear. >There must be room in the PC market to sustain the Amiga. There's always room for niche players, but they have to be very good at that niche. That's why the Amiga has survived in desktop video. Without a continued effort to keep ahead of the curve however, the Amiga will die in that niche also. More to the point, the way Commodore is run, the number of Amigas that get sold into desktop video isn't significant enough to keep their interest. >Clear-cut planning and efficient execution of such a plan are required to >keep this market alive. Commodore's plan has to be to "clear cut" the organization to the bone and they've done that quite efficiently. A well executed plan is not enough. The plan must actually relate to market conditions and opportunities. Commodore's been out of touch with the market for years. >We need to spread the word about the machine which is superior in design >to both the PC and the Mac. They WERE superior in design to the PC and Mac. The latest Power Macs are VERY sophisticated. The latest PC's with Pentiums and PCI busses are VERY sophisticated. All PCs sold today can do 1024×768 with decent performance, without breaking a sweat, unlike an Amiga. The Amiga operating system however, is still a VERY efficient and powerful operating system compared to either Windows or System 7, both of which lack real multitasking and have lame memory management. However, Commodore's neglect (lack of R&D resources) over the past few years have left it sadly lacking in a number of areas that I've mentioned on here many times. >Commodore needs to look into the evolving technologies in order to >continue to be competitive. No kidding. They should have a PowerPC based Amiga on the market *NOW*. They could have done the emulation bit like Apple for compatibility, and moved the OS and apps over time. >I think Amiga Exec and AmigaDos and Intuition are years ahead of MS Windows. In some ways, yes. Exec is a marvel of elegance and efficiency. AmigaDos (from a user experience) is kind of like MS-DOS and so isn't so hot. Intuition has some good features but the underlying graphics subsystem is far too weak by today's standards even compared to other standards on the Amiga like EGS. >We need to get down to brass tacks and start writing the 'Killer Apps' >which are necessary to make or break a computer system. Who's "we"? Where's Oxxi's killer apps? More specifically, no Amiga third party developer has the financial resources to write a mainstream productivity package to compete with those on the Mac or PC. That leaves niches, and NewTek and a few others have done well there, and there's some pretty good authoring systems and other multimedia tools, so what other apps did you have in mind? >I would like to see the Amiga survive. I don't think anyone who comes in this forum wants it to die. >But I think it is in 'our' power to possibly alter the outcome. I think you grossly overestimate the power of a user community. What do you propose? Protests at airports? User press conferences? Hunger strikes? >Are Amiga users fatalistic or are we the positive optimist? Is this a possibility, >or is it a simple dream? A lot of users are naive dreamers. Nothing wrong with that per se, but encounters with reality can be painful. >Each Amiga owner must take stock of what it is which draws >them to this 'lovable' machine. Besides the desktop video and other professional graphic arts and multimedia uses, I think the vast majority of Amiga users were drawn to the platform because it was simply the most technically elegant machine on the market when it came out and offered the best price/performance. The price/performance issue is definitely shot now, and while the Amiga is still elegant, it's looking like more of an anachronism by day. The "blame" for the situation the Amiga is in is entirely Commodore's. Don't persecute yourself or other Amiga users for things they could or should have done. Paul.

Hi > I think that all of us Amiga users should stand by Commodore by buying >their stocks in this time of need. That does not strike me as good advice. First, it will not help CBM to survive at all. If they recover it could make the users richer and able to buy their products (if any) however, or vice-versus. It's a big gamble. As for spreading the word and killer apps and the rest, I think everyone from Amazing and AmigaWorld to the stockholder's movement has tried to move mountains to get the word out and to influence CBM's suicidal business tactics for years, to absolutely no avail. There is not a more loyal user base anywhere. The users don't deserve to be lambasted for the poor business judgement of Commodore. If you look at the history of this company, the only good thing they ever did was the C64 under Jack Tramail. He is still doing better with Atari than his brain child is doing, even today. Copperman could have been their savior but they canned him. Dave Haynie and other top talent have stood by them all these years mostly because, like the users, they believed in the worth of the Amiga and wanted it to succeed I believe. All for naught, for a company that pays high executive salaries to people who can't even understand the need of advertising a product and protecting market share in the biggest market on earth…the USA. A lot of heros have given years to protecting the Amiga and championing it, but no amount of optimism will get CBM out this mess. Only the judgement of the creditors matters now, and they can't be in a very rosy frame of mind I think. What can I say to you? We love Amiga, and someone has raped her. Tom Oklahoma City, OK USA jonest@hfsi.com

" I think that all of us Amiga users should stand by Commodore by buying their stocks in this time of need." Purchasing Commodore stock does nothing for Commodore. You are simply buying the stock from someone else, not from Commodore. (It would be different, of course, if Commodore issued new stock which is as likely as your winning the lottery.) Even if all the well-wishers bought Commodore stock, the only result would be a profit for those selling Commodore stock. Not a single penny would flow to Commodore because of this. Jerry

Killer Apps? See my announcement on VR Graphics in this section!

You wouldn't happen to know if C= stocks are listed overseas would you? Like Australia? The system is so good it's worth a punt. regards, Lu on AutoPilot downunder