#Forensic animation cases
26 messages in this thread
Hi all,
I was just thinking: wouldn't it be nice to have a compiled list of specific
legal cases in which computer animations were successfully used here on the
forum, like the list of forensic animators? Might that not give animators some
good ammo to use when selling the idea to attorneys? Any thoughts…
Brandon
DesignTec
Might "ALSO" be MOST informative to know which of those cases were
specifically 3D Studio.
-Lee
Yeah, and also maybe a list of cases where animation was *not* successfully
used, so we can look them up and see why.
Brandon
DesignTec
Brandon,
I think it sure couldn't hurt, are you volunteering? That what happened to me,
if you mention it, you usually end up getting the job <BG>.
I also think that its the money they have to spend that keeps them away. Many
don't have the financial resources to allow them to spend the money upfront in
hopes that they will win.
Sometimes its just that they don't know that someone locally is available. Its
a marketing problem I'm not sure how to tackle. Any ideas?
We need someone thats sharp in a business sense to do a study that will show
the attorneys return on their investment, what size of case where they would
brake even and so on.
Regards………..Rick – Technical Animations
Hi Rick,
>> are you volunteering? That what happened to me, if you mention it, you
usually end up getting the job <BG>.<<
Sure, why not. "I officially volunteer". I have downloaded your list of
forensic animators. Thanks! As a matter of fact, I think I got your name off
of that list and sent you some e-mail in the past couple days about an article
I am writing on forensic animation for "The Alabama Lawyer" magazine. Did you
get it?
>>I also think that its the money
>>Sometimes its just that they don't know that someone locally is available.
Its a marketing problem I'm not sure how to tackle. Any ideas?<<
Yeah, I agree with both. Most state bar associations, if not all, publish
magazines or newsletters which *all* licensed attorneys in the state receive.
Have you thought about running an advertisement? Or maybe a booth at your
state's annual bar association convention?
>>We need someone thats sharp in a business sense to do a study that will show
the attorneys return on their investment, what size of case where they would
brake even and so on.<<
Cool idea! I'll look into that.
Best Regards,
Brandon
DesignTec
Brandon,
>>I have downloaded your list of forensic animators. Thanks!<<
Your are most welcome, I'm glad its being used.
>>Sure, why not. "I officially volunteer".<<
Exactly what info do you need?
>>As a matter of fact, I think I got your name off of that list and sent you
some e-mail in the past couple days about an article I am writing on forensic
animation for "The Alabama Lawyer" magazine. Did you get it?<<
I got your email about the article you are writing, thanks. I'm in the middle
of a 9 car accident with an expert that I have never worked with before and I
have a relatively short deadline. I hope to reply to at least some of the
questions you posed. When do you need my reply and images?
>>Most state bar associations, if not all, publish magazines or newsletters
which *all* licensed attorneys in the state receive. Have you thought about
running an advertisement? Or maybe a booth at your state's annual bar
association convention?<<
I did place an ad in the "Oklahoma Trial Lawyers Association" magazine with 1
or 2 respones for 3 issues/6 month run. I'm thinking that I need a longer run
to show more permanence in market place. I have another ad coming out this
month with what I think is a better verbage, it will run for 4 issues/12
months. Amazing what you can learn from a few advertising books. I also as you
suggested had a booth at a convention for the OTLA, I talked with several
attorneys, but little contact after the convention. I think I need to be more
aggresive and follow up with a letter or phone call, maybe that would increase
the number of jobs contributable to my advertising. Word of mouth is doing a
better than than any other advertising. I just need more mouths<BG>.
>>Cool idea! I'll look into that.<<
I didn't really think that a study would have a chance, since it would take
considerable time and money. If this did happen it would certainly be icing on
the cake.
Regards………..Rick – Technical Animations
If I can be of assistancein compiling and publishing a list of cases — and
making some legal sense of why an animation was oe wasn't admitted — I'm more
than happy to do so.
andy
Andy,
Brandon Bartlett is the one that will be compliling the list, I'm sure he would
appreciate your help. Be sure and let him know of your intentions.
Regards…………Rick – Technical Animations
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for volunteering to help out! Would you happen to know what pieces of
information about a case would need to be know for an attorney to look it up
and do research on it? Here's what I'm thinking of including for each entry so
far:
CASE NAME
CASE TYPE (criminal, civil, etc.)
PUNITIVE AMOUNT AWARDED (If civil)
AMOUNT INVESTED IN ANIMATION
STATE
DATE
ANIM. SOFTWARE USED (if possible)
ANIMATOR
BRIEF SYNOPSIS OF CASE
BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF ANIMATION
What do you think?
Best Regards,
Brandon
DesignTec
>>Exactly what info do you need?
I don't know, how about the following for starters:
CASE NAME
STATE
DATE
TYPE OF ANIM. USED (auto accident, forensic, etc.)
ANIM. SOFTWARE USED (if possible)
ANIMATOR
BRIEF SYNOPSIS OF CASE (preferably mentioning the impact of the anim)
what do you think? Anything else we should list?
>>When do you need my reply and images?
We have got plenty of time, and I really would love to have your comments! My
first deadline for copy submittal is May 15, but I can slide to the next which
is July 15, because my article probably won't show up in the next issue anyway.
>>I think I need to be more aggresive and follow up with a letter or phone
call, maybe that would increase the number of jobs contributable to my
advertising.<<
Yeah, that's where I fall short myself. But some books I have read say that
the best results come from continually and periodically throwing your name and
materials at your list of potential clients, particularly through the mail. It
described some studies carried out by some college (I forget the name) over a
period of years, even a couple decades I think, and the study said that the
magic number was 5. In other words, you can count on a certain amount of
response from each mailing to prosective clients. For instance, on the first
you should receive some sort of feedback from approx 2% of those receiving your
mailing/brochure/letter. By the 5th cycle, it should be 75%. I haven't got to
5 yet, but 1 and 2 were dead on by my experience. Something to think about…
>>I didn't really think that a study would have a chance, since it would take
considerable time and money.<<
I didn't realize you were talking about a real and official "study", I was
simply considering getting someone with good business experience to write down
some sort of break-even-point figures, you know "if my case is for X amount,
and my attorneys fees will be Y, and my overhead is Z, then I can allocate A
amount for animation" or something?
Regards,
Brandon
DesignTec
Advertising:
Word of mouth seems to be the best way to get this kind of work. Seems lawyers
respect the experts not the advertisers. In fact, the lawyer I just worked for
says he often uses the fact that experts are out their actively selling their
services against them when they testify.
Anyone else experienced that type of response to advertising. Curious. I send
out tapes, but mostly when they are requested because someone has passed along
my name. I would love to get more work, but don't want to jepardize my position
by looking like an "ambulance chaser".
Best bet seems to be well known with engineers who are called on for
reconstructions and with local police and attorneys. There seems to be a thin
line between "getting your name out" and "advertising your services".
Any thoughts?
Paul Kakert
Fresh Look Design
Paul,
>>Word of mouth seems to be the best way to get this kind of work.<<
I find the same to be true, but I don't think I would give up on other
possibilities. An 1/4 page ad in the Oklahoma Trial Lawyer Association magazine
cost $420 for 4 issues/12 months, just one job would pay for the cost of the
ad. Then there is always future income from the same attorney, much more likely
now that he has used animation.
>>I would love to get more work, but don't want to jepardize my position by
looking like an "ambulance chaser".<<
I would not worry about being perceived as an ambulance chaser, you are not
showing up at the accident site or talking with the parties involved. When you
advertise, you are selling to the attorney.
Being well known by the experts is certainly a plus, it will carry more weight
when your name cames from him/her. LIke I have said many times, when you talk
with an expert you have just contacted many many attorneys. Much better than
try to contact each attorney yourself, although if time permits it can't hurt
to make a few calls.
Regards………Rick – Technical Animations
Brandon –
Mailings to prospective customers are less than effective in this
situation. Experience says that this is a visual, person to person sell. In
order to get a repsonse via the mail, you must offer an incentive, be it
discount, or whatever. Most often the mailing will be trashed. The xpectations
for mailer responsed in the markets I have been in are less than 35% return, if
you ask them to respond and incentivise them. 75% is almost never
achieved…that's astronomical!!!! If however, you make 5 calls on a client,
help him move into a new way of thinking and using your product/service,
chances are by the third call you are engaged, and by the fifth call you have a
contract. Maybe that is what is being referred to as the magic 5. Realize this
means footwork and staff. The best sell is demos, and offering an intial
incentive. Realize that part of the case is being intrusted to you at that
point – leap of faith for most clients. But….it is getting better.
Your list of information requested is a good one – definitely include the
comments so we can see what length, what kind of animation was used, and so
forth. I have had success with integrating real video clips, time stamped to
animated backgrounds to add credibility to the "animation", master clocking the
whole thing together so the jury sees an "in sync" view. A simplistic version
is the OJ drive from OJ's house to the crime scene, done solely to show it
could be done in x-monutes. More involved ones have been crash simulations of
GM truck gas tanks, time to implode, etc….
Gene
>>Mailings to prospective customers are less than effective in this situation.
Experience says that this is a visual, person to person sell.<<
You're right. The book I was referring to was speaking in reference to
software sales, not service marketing. But in our initial efforts in the
architectural animation side of things, their figures were right on, although
it was across a mailing that consisted of only a little over one hundred pieces
being mailed. And yes, of course, mail isn't enough. Each
letter/package/sample was followed up by a phone call. I simply haven't
finished the "official equation" out to the fifth try, and that's my fault.
>> I have had success with integrating real video clips, time stamped to
animated backgrounds to add credibility to the "animation", master clocking the
whole thing together so the jury sees an "in sync" view<<
Sounds like excellent methodology. I didn't see your name listed in Rick
Miller's list of forensic animators. Tell us a little about what you do, if
you don't mind, and would you be interested in receiving my questionaire and
contributing to the magazine article I am preparing on forensic animation?
Best Regards,
Brandon
DesignTec
Brandon,
FYI….RE: your magazine article…The september 1994 issue of TRIAL
magazine(202-965-3500) was devoted to demonstrative evidence, and included
several articles on computer generated "evidence"..
Regards,
Doug – JGI
Thanks Doug,
I'll definitely check that out. Thanks again!
Best Regards,
Brandon
DesignTec
Brandon – be happy to fill out your questionnaire. I am new to the 3DS forum
and to 3DS itself. I am setting up shop now, migrating some folks from SGI and
host based systems to PC platforms that we can afford as a small business.
Almost there, and when we are on our own, I will upload our resume/business
info. Right now I am working for several clients that require forms of
animation to fill out the cases, while I finish the rest of the market
analysis.
Thanks…..Gene
Brandon,
>>I don't know, how about the following for starters:<<
I figured there was ___specific___ info that would be required for anyone to
look up the case for themselves. If this is your goal, then you might need the
county, parish etc. I'm not sure, I have never done any legal research.
>>BRIEF SYNOPSIS OF CASE (preferably mentioning the impact of the anim)<<
I think it would be hard to comment on the impact of the animation, that would
have to come from the attorney. The attorney might talk with jurors or opposing
attorneys after the trial is over. Possibly some animators might get feedback
from the attorney.
I would also add a field for the dollar value of the case and another field for
any punitive damages. It would be nice to have info on just how small a case
attorneys are using animation on. This could be used to sell other attorneys.
I would suggest you take input like you are doing now then setup a format for
everyone to follow when supplying information to you, this will save you alot
work re-formating their text and possible changing it in some way.
>>I didn't realize you were talking about a real and official "study"….<<
To impress an attorney with a study, it would have to be documented, don't you
think?
May 15 certainly gives me some time, I will try to get an answer by then. Thats
pretty much when my deadline for multi-car accident is.
Regards………..Rick – Technical Animations
>>I figured there was ___specific___ info that would be required for anyone to
look up the case for themselves.<<
I thought so too, but since I haven't done any legal research either, someone
else needs to tell us whether we're compiling the right statistics or not.
Anybody out there that can tell us?
>>I would also add a field for the dollar value of the case and another field
for any punitive damages.<<
Excellent. Consider it done.
I think I'm going to wait a few days, while we all discuss this a little
further and I have more time to think, and then I'm going to post a new message
calling for forensic cases and outlining the info fields and their format.
>>To impress an attorney with a study, it would have to be documented, don't
you think?<<
Yeah, you're probably right<sigh>, oh well… any ideas?
Re: The deadline. If May 15 is a problem, don't worry. I can easily slide to
my second deadline to accomodate everyones personal time tables. I'm pretty
sure my article wouldn't get into the June issue if I submitted it by the 15th
of May anyway, based upon my last conversation with the editor.
Best Regards,
Brandon
Brandon,
>>I think I'm going to wait a few days, while we all discuss this a little
further and I have more time to think, and then I'm going to post a new message
calling for forensic cases and outlining the info fields and their format.<<
I'm sure you will be glad that you put some upfront planning into this list, it
will save you considerable time in the long run.
>>Yeah, you're probably right<sigh>, oh well… any ideas?<<
Its a fact of life, you cannot do everything. I'm very happy with scope of your
list now. Someone said "How do you eat an elephant, one bite at a time." I say,
"lets start with a small elephant first, then work our way up to the big ones."
>>I can easily slide to my second deadline to accomodate everyones personal
time tables.<<
Do whats best for the group, if they benefit from it, it can only help me too.
Regards…………Rick – Technical Animations
Brandon — I'm volunteering to help compile a case list for forensic animation
cases. I'm doing a book for animators on forensic animation and am in a pretty
good position to assemble and make some sense of the data.
Here are my suggestions:
These let any other attorney or animator locate the case:
STATE, COURT and CASE NUMBER
COMPLETE TITLE OF THE CASE
DATE OF JUDGMENT, if applicable
These let the attorney and animator determine if the case is similar and
useful, and provides contact points for other attorneys who want to discuss the
issues:
TYPE OF CASE (personal injury, criminal, real estate, etc.)
BRIEF STATEMENT OF FACTS
PARTY OFFERING ANIMATION
TYPE OF ANIMATION (simulation, illustration, tutorial)
PURPOSE OF ANIMATION
DATE ANIMATION ADMITTED/EXCLUDED
ANIM. SOFTWARE USED (if possible)
ATTORNEY OR EXPERT CONTACT NAME AND PHONE NUMBER (good for endorsements also!!)
ANIMATION FIRM, ANIMATOR, and PHONE NUMBER
LEt me know how we can work together.
andy
Thanks Andrew, some wonderful info! BTW, I just posted another message asking
you to do what you just did before I saw your last message, so you can ignore
it. I will definitely incorporate your suggestions! I wish you the best of
success on your forensic animation book.
Do you have any suggestions about how to research this and compile the list? I
have never done legal research before, so unless I learn otherwise, I am simply
planning on relying on individuals on-line to submit what they know, what
they've been involved in or heard of. I have already gotten a couple listings
that way.
Thanks again for your help on this. Would you also like to contribute to, and
be mentioned in, a magazine article I am preparing for the state bar
association journal "The Alabama Lawyer"? I have a questionaire I could e-mail
you if you're interested.
Thanks and best regards,
Brandon
DesignTec
Glad to help. In terms of legal research, I'm a lawyer, so I can review the
offered listings and make some sense of them — or know what to pursue. I
think that the best way to start is to request listings from animators on and
off the forum. We won't get a complete list, but it's a start.
Thanks for the good wishes. I'll let you know more when we get closer to
publication.
What would you like for the article? Let me know.
andy
Brandon- I am just opening a Forensic lab in Virginia, having been a new
business Exec for IBM for 22 years (still am). My first love is my PI job on
the side, and my second is animating. After doing a business case ananlysis on
this it is clear to me that we have classic technologists and experts in the
field of animation trying to market to the most conservative bunch of people in
the world – lawyers!!
Two things have to come together – affordability – the lawyer has to be able to
recover his cost or direct charge it to the client, as in PI work (my other
life). Either is acceptable, but onthe latter, you have to sell the client, and
getting to him/her/them is tought – the lawyer will front it. You have to take
in demos, ones that have sold in court, and you ahve to get onto platforms that
are not SGI, RISC based systems so the cost of the operation comes down.
Second, the operating point for our end has to be determined based on return on
OUR investment. Where you direct the lawyer is to the most attractive return
for us, and a good return for him. His return is intangible – win/lose, he
get's paid. Win he gets paid more, but try to show a lawyer that the animated
reconstruction made his case and not his skill and ability and you lose, we
lose.
There are a myriad of types of animations that can be offered, each one applies
more readily to a specific set of case types. The more animation you need, the
more time to be re-created, etc, the more it costs. Car accidents are tough to
sell into, on the other hand, large suits for punitive damages, etc, can be
ideal for showing that the turck, train, or whatever, was doing this, while the
client was doing that…..etc.
I have spent a lot of time marketing, now I'm up to my A__ in ideas and
demands, and still have not gotten a multi-point lab setup on PC's. I am hoping
someone can tell me that 3DS has been able to handle most of the load. Everyone
has their preferences for hardware/software, and that compounds the problem of
return for us. You must use the gear that getst the job done, well, and timely,
but not overdo it or you will never make the magic break-even point in the time
alloted by the banks.
I could do a course on new startups and ROI, but not here. How about talking
first about what the typical lab should have so a price point can be baselined?
Once we have that, we can each delta up or down what we have invested, and
figure out what we have to recover in our rates. Then you go to the spreadsheet
and figure out what has to happen to the sales to make it. Lastly, you look at
the market and see what enables and inhibits achievement of that level of
market penetration. THis is wide open fellas – a little bit of science and a
lot of business horse sense will make us all leaders in an emrging field. Any
comments.???
>>I have spent a lot of time marketing, now I'm up to my A__ in ideas and
demands, and still have not gotten a multi-point lab setup on PC's. I am hoping
someone can tell me that 3DS has been able to handle most of the load.<<
What have you got setup so far, and what seems to be the trouble? As far as I
have heard and experienced, 3DS should be able to handle just about anything,
except maybe some of these
airline-data-recorder-fed-perfectly-accurate-workstation-calculated animations
we see on NBC a few months after a big crash.
As far as what a typical lab should consist of, we need to define size first.
Is this a one man freelance operation we're discussing, or is it a "three or
four friends pool their savings and incorporate" situation? That's going to
define, I think, more than anything else the hardware/software composition of
any forensic animation lab.
>>THis is wide open fellas – a little bit of science and a lot of business
horse sense will make us all leaders in an emrging field.<<
I'm all for that scenerio<g>. Anybody got any extra "horse sense" they can
lend me<g>?
>> trying to market to the most conservative bunch of people in the world –
lawyers!!<<
I don't know, architects might just give them a run-for-their-money when it
comes to being conservative, as one architect admitted that they were
"extremely cost conscious to the point of economical myopia."<g>.
Best Regards,
Brandon
DesignTec
Brandon –
Right now I will have on staff three people, all PI's, all experienced
on PC's, but animation on PC's is not where we have been. Most of the
talent lies in SGI based products which is uaffordable for us at this time.
From what I've learned so far, a 486 ro Pentium, at 66 to 100MHZ with as much
memory as we can afford should be a good start. We have a variety of output
methods – the main one being considered right now is a master SVGA
system….not a LAN, just a distribution and amplification/correction
installation that we can tote from site to site, court to client, etc. We can
output in Hi-res with overhead projectors also – though not as a preference for
me….mostly to accommodate lo-tech sites.
Ok – no more horse sense comments from me. I merely meant that the
models for establishing forensic animation businesses is complex, but starts
with the basics used for any new market. Kind of boring I
guess…………Thanks….Gene