#The Web SUCKS!!!!
39 messages in this thread
Why do I say this?
I just spent a whole day getting AmiTCP–which, incidentally, is still not
working completely right–and AMosaic set up, and I'm halfway wondering whether
it was worth the effort. But while AmiTCP shouldn't be such a pain, that's not
the Web's problem. The problem with the Web is that it's SLOW!!! Slow as
molasses! And that's an insult to molasses!
Connecting to hosts takes forever, during which eternity I'm just sitting at my
computer basically doing nothing, because AMosaic's use of the ZGIF datatype
chews up extraordinary amounts of chip RAM–so much that I basically can use no
other apps. Then the connection will *finally* be made, seemingly after I've
died and been reborn as an insect a few times, and whatever in-line graphic
I've requested or page I've moved to will be sent to my Amiga–a process that
can also, mysteriously, take forever and a day. Why mysteriously? Because
I've selected the delayed loading of inline images, so all that's coming is
text and some markups. But the little transmission status bar will freeze at
various times during transmission, then restart, then freeze, then restart,
then wait for no apparent reason at what seems to be the end of transmission
before displaying the page or inlined graphic that I selected. The same goes
for ftp–transfer rates aren't particularly fast as far as I can tell, though
there's only that little graphic status bar to give me any indication of what's
going on, and transmission periodically pauses.
I suppose that when I register PPP I'll get some performance increase, but I
assume that will only affect performance *when something's actually being
transferred*, not during those annoying pauses.
And then there's another problem–once I decide to look at a graphic or move to
another page or whatever, there's no way to abort if the request is taking too
long to process! Once I let a request go for awhile just to see how long it
could take, and it was over an hour before the darn thing went through!
Also, why don't Web pages indicate how large a graphic is? Ftp files have
their sizes listed, so why shouldn't in-lined graphics? It's plain foolish!
I tried downloading a page to local disk, and sometime after the transmission
of the page appeared to have concluded, a save requester popped up, but upon
clicking Save my computer crashed! In fact, as Steve warned me, I crashed a
dozen times today alone, although I was on the Web for several hours, checking
it to the extent that I could.
At least the seperately available AMHotlist program works as advertised, and
that saves a lot of time, but for any of you who have read my rant this far I
*highly* recommend that you set the default start page of AMosaic to some local
html document on your own computer–that way you avoid all the time and connect
charges that are otherwise wasted while AMosaic waits for its connection
request to the AMosaic home page, or whatever, to be processed.
Then I tried telnet-ing to Compuserve, just to see how it worked–and
performance is *beyond* awful!! I hit a key, and some seconds later the letter
appeared on screen. Backspace did not work. Is this an artifact of telnet-ing
to compuserve.com from compuserve.com?
There's another phenomenally annoying feature of the Web–the display of each
in-lined graphic is processed as a *seperate request* even if I don't have the
display of inlined images delayed!!! Why is this!!? Why can't the whole page
be transmitted at once? This would almost make it worthwhile to get inlined
images without delay, because each seperate request can take seconds, minutes,
or, apparently, hours, to process!!!! Is this just the way AMosaic works, or
is every single Web surfer stuck with this assinine limitation? And there's
often little or no indication of what a particular in-lined image is, so
there's hardly ever a way to tell whether it's worth getting. A couple times
they're essential, and some are utilitarian enough but could easily be replaced
by text, but mostly they're frivolous at best, and more likely ill-conceived!
Now I'm sure there's plenty of really good stuff out there on the Web. I
already did some ftp-ing, and that's useful enough by itself. But the cost to
figure out where there's good stuff is staggering! And the net just doesn't
seem to be even close to up to the demands placed on it. As I mentioned I
visited several places that had ENORMOUS waits, caused I assume by high demand,
but even a request to connect to the AMosaic home page took a very long time
most times, and I can't imagin there are all that many people going there, at
least compared to the overall net traffic.
Why is this? I'm sure there are more preposterous things that I didn't notice,
or that I did and forgot by now–I was continually amazed at how poor the
interface really is. The single worst thing is that you can't abort a request
that's taking too long, but it's closely followed by the processing of in-lined
images as individual requests.
Now I don't know which of these problems are due to the nature of the net,
which to AMosaic, which to the Amiga, and so on. Certainly the chip RAM thing
is Amiga specific, and it's ridiculous–I have a RetinaZ3, and even when
Cybergraphics supports its blitter the darn datatype is still going to suck up
chip RAM, although hopefully then I'll have much more to spare. And I don't
know much about the internet and tcp/ip and so on, so I'm sure some of the
terms I used in this post are wrong. But regardless, I's *really* appreciate
any explanations anyone might have–and any tips to improve things.
AMosaic itself seems to perform mostly very well when it's working. When there
are no outstanding connection requests, my 1024x768x256 AMosaic screen will
scroll basically in real time. But real time, a term which I've seen bandied
about plenty of times in describing the Web–"a real time kiosk", etc–most
definitely does *NOT* describe the Web.
Also, could anyone tip me as to where to find Archie and Veronica and gopher
and so on for use from my Amiga? I'd understood that most internet service
providers have them on their machines, and you run them remotely, but is that
true for CIS Internet access? The Web is nice enough in some ways–if it would
only SPEED UP!!! and if AMosaic would only allow me to cancel requests if
they're taking too long–but I'm sure that text-only interfaces are a lot
faster.
Well, that's the end of my rant for now. TIA
Mr. Zombie
Phew!
I can't say I've found the Web as slow as you say, my initial homepage
appears (sans graphics) in about 4 seconds.. Could it be the amount of
traffic on your provders computer that is slowing things down?
Anyway, the only tip I can offer for now is ..see that little button on
the bottom right hand corner, the flashing blob in 1.2 or the spinning
hand in 1.3beta thats the abort transfer button.. I hit that as soon as I
see an image is 100k+ <g>
Steve
>>Anyway, the only tip I can offer for now is ..see that little button on the
bottom right hand corner, the flashing blob in 1.2 or the spinning hand in
1.3beta thats the abort transfer button.. I hit that as soon as I see an image
is 100k+ <g><<
Thanks for the info.
But yes, for me the web is HORRIBLY slow…
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
Ok, for the heck of it I just logged on to the Web using Mosaic and put
the stopwatch on how long it took to hop between pages..
From launcing Mosaic to My homepage appearing = 3 seconds
(I use Amiga Computings home page as it's
at the same domain as my account..)
From there to Aminet = 6 seconds
To Howard Sterns Homepage = 9 seconds
To Yahoos hotlinks = 12 seconds
To Justins links from the underground = 9 seconds
Home again = 3 seconds…
It looks like an average of 8 – 10 seconds, not -too- bad for a dialup
account I'd guess.. however if you're used to a direct connection it must
look pretty pityfull.. <g>
btw, I have inline images turned off…
Steve
I guess it's a matter of perspective. My times are worse than that, but not
like 10x worse or anything.
Why am I not surprised that Stern has a homepage…
Mr. Zombie
Good suggestion,
I'll try that this week-end with a stopwatch too. But I really am sure that it
is horribly slow. I also turned the inline images off. Could it be that it is
so slow because:
1) We have only a 9600 connection
2) Nearly everything we look at is at the other side of the ocean
?????
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
(1) yes, (2) not necessarily. I don't know exactly where the AMosaic home page
is, but it took me 1:30 to get there first, and then 3:30 to get to the FAQ.
Mr. Zombie
>>(2) not necessarily. I don't know exactly where the AMosaic home page is,
but it took me 1:30 to get there first, and then 3:30 to get to the FAQ.<<
I haven't timed it with a stopwatch yet, but I guess that must be about the
times I get. When I work with Windows I get crazy because of the lack of speed.
But when I compare this to the Web…
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
Yah, I was wrong when I said my times were less than 10x as long as
Steve's–they're worse. A few locations seem to be faster.
Mr. Zombie
>>Yah, I was wrong when I said my times were less than 10x as long as
Steve's–they're worse.<<
He has a 100 MBit line I guess,…<g>
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
>>>He has a 100 MBit line I guess,…<g>
I WISH!!
I have a standard dial-up account with Demon UK and use a 14,400 modem..
I'm in the slow lane too buddy! (But I'm overtaking that fellow in the
9.600baud Trabant… <g>)
Steve
>>But I'm overtaking that fellow in the 9.600baud Trabant… <g>)<<
US! <weep>
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
Bart,
apparantly things could speed up when using a registered version of PPP.device,
the unregistered or evaluation version doesn't support compression (see the
docs). We could be webbing better, but it will cost an additional 15$.
Lieven Lema
…on AutoPilot from Belgium
Lieven,
I have my doubts. I think this will only help if you really are downloading
many pictures but I didn't see any for now and it is still slow. I don't think
that it will be quicker to connect with or without registered version…
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
I don't have a direct access to the Internet. However, the local talk
here is that the best net software is now something called MLink 1.17.
Harv Laser used to live here, and drops through the local BBS on a regular
basis. (He's written for several Mags, and is the Amiga Zone Guru over on
Portal.) According to Harv, ATCP has been rendered obsolete by this
software. (It's shareware $25, but fully functional as distributed.)
Supposedly it is available at a web site, hope I get this right:
http://www.hut.fi/~oahvenla/mlink/
If that looks wrong, then evidently I miscopied it from the message.
Supposedly the author is at the above web page.
I haven't tried accessing it yet, so haven't verified the accuaracy of the
information.
– Alex…. Still Whap!'n after all these years
Thanks for the info! I'll try to check it out this week-end!
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
MultiLink can only be used if you're dialing into a UNIX system. The Multilink
software runs there, and on your Amiga. It's a similar concept to "term" on
Linux, or TIA in windows. It's a great concept, but if you're not (which most
people aren't), then you should use AmiTCP. With it (and PPP version 1.30) you
can set up direct access to the Internet through CompuServe.
MLink does look really cool, but I'm sure Harv didn't mean that AmiTCP has been
rendered obsolete — just that for people who are using TCP/IP entirely as a
way to run a few Internet apps, and who have access to a Unix box to run MLink
on, MLink is a great option. AmiTCP still has a place in TCP/IP LANs, with
people who have SLIP/PPP but not a Unix shell account, etc.
dale@iam.com http://www.iam.com
Intangible Assets Manufacturing
Hi Bart,
Yup, thats your problem, get a 28k modem! ..I've only got a 14,400 one
which common opinion would indicate is the minimum speed for a dialup net
connection..
I doubt the ocean is a problem, (I'm in the UK) unless your in that
EuroTunnel, now -theres- some ocean trouble.. <g>
Steve
Steve,
>>Yup, thats your problem, get a 28k modem! ..I've only got a 14,400 one which
common opinion would indicate is the minimum speed for a dialup net
connection..<<
Impossible I fear, We've only a 9.6K node!
>>I doubt the ocean is a problem, (I'm in the UK) unless your in that
EuroTunnel, now -theres- some ocean trouble.. <g><<
Fortunately I'm not, but I guess you're right.<G>
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
What is Howard Stern's URL ?
-Jonathan
MAC Quadra/486PC compatible courtesy Amiga, Emplant and BB. Emplant beta
tester. Running AP v1.80. E-mail: JonathanB@delrina.com
http://www.delrina.com
I find Howard at:
http://krishna.cs.umd.edu/stern/
It's a (good) unofficial page, but it points to 3 others..
Steve
Steve-
Thanks for the tip. I think I hit that button to see what it did and nothing
happened, but I may be wrong. I'll try it!
Btw, while I'm on the subjects, here are two things I forgot to mention:
Why isn't there a status bar for ALL transfers instead of only for some? Some
show the size of the whatever that's being sent, and a graphic gauge off the
transfer status, so that I know how big whatever it is that's being sent is.
Others just show the message READ xxxx bytes, without ANY indication of how
many more bytes there are to be read!
And why are pages only buffered backwards? If I go onto a page, and then back
out, the backout is instantaneous, buffered on my computer I assume, but if I
decide to go back into that page, it's a request all over again!!!
Also, does anyone know which kind of memory is used for the image buffer that's
specified in the prefs file?
Mr. Zombie
I wondered about the status bar for all messages to, I can only guess that
some htmls are preceded by a header with the size in it whereas others
arn't..
When you say things only buffered backwards have you tried going
forward using the "Window history" by double clicking on the page of your
choice.. works like the thread list in AP..
I've no idea which memory is used for the message buffer, I'd assume fast
as although I've 16 megs of 32bit fast Ram I've only 1 meg of chip, and
I've never run out… <g>
Steve
Steve-
No, I hadn't tried window history. I'll give it a whirl. The screen gets to
be awfully cluttered then, though–AMosaic itself, the Hotlist, and the Window
History.
Also, for anyone out there, AMHotlist seems to break when you cancel the first
request for the homepage. I haven't tried it yet cancelling later requests.
Mr. Zombie
"If I decide to go back into that page, it's a request all over again!!!"
Are you clicking on the link, or clicking on "forward"?
>>I tried downloading a page to local disk, and sometime after the transmission
of the page appeared to have concluded, a save requester popped up, but upon
clicking Save my computer crashed! In fact, as Steve warned me, I crashed a
dozen times today alone, although I was on the Web for several hours, checking
it to the extent that I could.<<
Same thing over here, Paul.
It seems to me you just ran in what I weep for since years: every computer I
bought was *bad* have I been told. In nearly all literature my computers were
bad and the peecees and macs were just plain wonderful. They only “forgot'' to
mention they didn't work. It's probably the same thing here: everyone is
hysterical about the web: it's wonderful, it's fantastic, it's unbeatable, it's
the best! It doesn't work but that's no problem: who *wants* something that
works? Nobody, right? If only it's professional.
The Information Super Highway should probably be named the Information Super
Hokum….
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
Hmmm.. I've used Mosaic to save files with both types of requester (Amiga
Req and the Mosaic single line one..) and I've had no crashes at all.. the
only time I've managed to freak it out is when I drag the window out to
full screen, that results in a lock-up.. I think it may be more to do with
picasso that Mosaic though. ..If I drag it open in 2 stages I have no
problem..
Steve
Indeed, the web's much cooler if you have a very fast connection, or a browser
that's a bit smarter about how it goes onto the web. Add to that the problem
of the remote site being part of the limiting factor, and you get…well,
you've already gotten the idea of why things are slow.
Soooooo…. what to do? Well, first, don't use the default site when you start
Amosaic. Either the remote machine is very slow, it has lots of traffic going
to it, or *it's* connection is slow. You can start Amosaic up to a different
site by adding any URL to the command line, like so:
amosiac http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/
And that'll connect you to the NCSA's home page. If you want to abort the
request, click on the button in the lower right hand corner of Amosaic 1.2, or
the dial in the later versions. I believe that should stop the transfer in
progress when data is being transferred. It may take a few seconds if you do
it during a connect, depending on how things were coded.
"Also, why don't Web pages indicate how large a graphic is?"
Good question. I think the HTML-3 spec has the ability to specify the image
height and width. What good does that do? Well, then your browser can
allocate that room on the page, and throw the text up on the screen while your
images are being downloaded. Not all browsers support this. I expect if
that's not already in Amosaic, it's something they're working on. The size (in
bytes) of the image is displayed at the bottom of the window while it's being
downloaded.
Can you upload that Hotlist program if it's not already here?
"What can't the whole page be transmitted at once?"
The HTTP protocol doesn't let you do it. I think this was done for a couple of
reasons. First, it keeps the HTTP server on the remote site from being to
bogged down with parsing every document and figuring out which images to send.
That being the case, you have to download the HTML document first, and then the
browser on your side can figure out which new pics it needs. In some browsers,
images are cached, and therefore don't require retransmission. Some even keep
pictures between online sessions. That reall y speeds things up…..if you have
a browser that support it. I'd be willing to bet that the Amosaic folks
recognize this limitation, and will do something about it.
I believe that gopher's available native in later versions of Amosaic. Just
type:
gopher://gopher.site.here/
(I'm not sure about that tho…I haven't tried it yet).
Connect to: http://www.yahoo.com/ And search for keyword ARCHIE for WEB
pages that support archie. That's how I use it these days.
Steve
Yah, well, I'm sure even with a 28.8k connection the Web will be slow. If CIS
at least supported compression things might be a little better. And AMosaic
could be a *lot* better. It should be able to download pages to one's local
computer and have them be *useable* and only updated if the real page has
changed. I downloaded a 1/2MB gopher tree over at the Library of Congress
before I knew about he cancel button, and there was no size indication anyway,
and it was *USELESS*! Except as a reference, but I couldn't seem to load it
into AMosaic and click on a document and then jump there.
I'm definitely going to set a different default site for AMosaic, because I
timed it today for the AMosaic home page and it took 1:30 to get the first
page.
I'll upload the Hotlist now.
>>"What can't the whole page be transmitted at once?"
The HTTP protocol doesn't let you do it.<<
If the protocol was more sophisticated, it could process everything quickly
even with dependant sends, like based on graphic size thresholds and cached
graphics and so on. It sounds to me like HTTP is VERY dumb.
The big delays for me are much more from waiting for connections rather than
transfers. And some links seem like you have to get the graphic first–there
aren't always those little arrows above the inlined graphic icon.
I did find gopher support, although there are a lot of pages–gopher and
otherwise–that seem to be down. They refuse access. And then some of them
seem to time out.
The big problem seems to be that they're putting more eye-candy into the web
than the web can handle–when you consider that the vast majority of web
surfers must be using serial connections. I'm sure the web is a marvel when
you're hooked up directly to a backbone, although I imagine that connection
requests can be almost as slow–isn't most of the time waiting for a connection
spent while the server processes the request, or is most of it spent waiting
for the request to travel?
Anyway, thanks for your time and thoughts.
Mr. Zombie
I agree about the big pics. Some sites have HUGE pictures, and GIFs at that.
Luckily, JPEGs are becoming more common since newer versions of some browsers
support 'em. That'll help cut on transmission time.
I find that the most time is spent having the server process the request.
Steve
Paul,
Your problems are _completely_ software related. When I wander the WEB, using
either SLIP _or_ PPP, things just march right along. No delays, no problems. I
use a 486/dx4/75 & the usual Windows browsers. SLIP is fine (at 14.4kb) as is
PPP.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben-
Huh. So what software do you recommend using? Or is there nothing I can do
other than find a different provider? Because plenty of people here are having
similar problems. It also varies widely among different web sites. IAM's page,
for example, comes up relatively quickly, and I've now set that as my default
site because of it.
Mr. Zombie
Paul,
On the Amiga, I don't know – I just wanted to be sure you knew that the net,
the web, is not at fault here.
I use a Windows machine exclusively for internet access at this poimt.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben-
What software do you use, then? Because I've heard plenty of Windozers
complain too. My understanding is that Interscope is pretty good–better than
Mosaic, anyway–so maybe I'll try it when I get my Emplant up and running, but
the single biggest problem for me is the long wait after AMosaic says "Done
sending http request" before I actually start receiving page data or whatever.
How much is that really affected by software on my end? This is also bourn out
by the fact that some pages–such as IAM's–are much more responsive than
others.
Fortunately for you, but not for the rest of us, your experience seems to be
atypical.
Mr. Zombie
Well, lets see. For all my net access _except_ the WEB, I use "Internet in a
box". Nice email, about as good a newsreader as I've seen except you can't read
offline.
FWIW, I also bought and extensiuvely tried "Chameleon", and my summary opinion
of that software is it couldn't be much worse and still be called "software".
The news reader is purest, absolute unmitigated junk, the mail is crippled, and
the low level connect software seems to be designed to drive you directly out
of your mind. Don't buy it. Ever. 🙂
For the WEB, I use "NetScape". This I downloaded from the appropriate ftp site,
which I no longer have any idea where was, sorry – but net denizens should be
able to direct you to it, it's popular as all get out – that's how I heard
about it. The web software that comes with IIAB in a box isn't nearly as nice
as the netscape product, and it all works together seamlessly, so there you go.
For the low level connection underneath IIAB, I use "Trumpet", which works
_extremely_ well. Got this off a net site in Ireland. 🙂 The only problem with
the IIAB setup was that the underlying dialer ASSumes you will be using the
selected set of service providers in the box; I wasn't, and don't plan to. You
can't write scripts worth snot in the IIAB low level connect manager (it makes
too many assumptions), so I couldn't make it work with my provider. I then went
on an oddessy I *really* didn't want to have to do in order to learn exactly
what bizzare and peculiar protocols I'd have to handle with Trumpet to get to
my provider – I managed to get it all going (I'm very stubborn.. 🙂 and at
this point everything is going very well. I now know more than I ever wanted to
about Trumpet and the IBM provider I use, but with a great deal of directed
effort, I'm forgetting it as fast as I can. 🙂
All of this runs _very_ well on my 486 dx4/75 laptop under windows 3.1.
We have a complete Internet site running; "blackbelt.com" We have set up WEB
services, ftp, and various email channels and so internetting is quite
important at this point. Only CIS compares in volume to the internet at this
time, and the trend is clear – CIS will soon be behind. The noise level on the
net is nothing less than horrible, but we've methods in place to help deal with
it that are working well for us.
Me, I prefer CIS for a number of reasons, but this is business, so I've not got
a great deal of choice.
Anyway, hope that all helps.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot