CompuServe Thread

#The Web SUCKS!!!!

39 messages in this thread
#192866From: Paul IdolApr 16, 1995 11:52 PM
Why do I say this? I just spent a whole day getting AmiTCP–which, incidentally, is still not working completely right–and AMosaic set up, and I'm halfway wondering whether it was worth the effort. But while AmiTCP shouldn't be such a pain, that's not the Web's problem. The problem with the Web is that it's SLOW!!! Slow as molasses! And that's an insult to molasses! Connecting to hosts takes forever, during which eternity I'm just sitting at my computer basically doing nothing, because AMosaic's use of the ZGIF datatype chews up extraordinary amounts of chip RAM–so much that I basically can use no other apps. Then the connection will *finally* be made, seemingly after I've died and been reborn as an insect a few times, and whatever in-line graphic I've requested or page I've moved to will be sent to my Amiga–a process that can also, mysteriously, take forever and a day. Why mysteriously? Because I've selected the delayed loading of inline images, so all that's coming is text and some markups. But the little transmission status bar will freeze at various times during transmission, then restart, then freeze, then restart, then wait for no apparent reason at what seems to be the end of transmission before displaying the page or inlined graphic that I selected. The same goes for ftp–transfer rates aren't particularly fast as far as I can tell, though there's only that little graphic status bar to give me any indication of what's going on, and transmission periodically pauses. I suppose that when I register PPP I'll get some performance increase, but I assume that will only affect performance *when something's actually being transferred*, not during those annoying pauses. And then there's another problem–once I decide to look at a graphic or move to another page or whatever, there's no way to abort if the request is taking too long to process! Once I let a request go for awhile just to see how long it could take, and it was over an hour before the darn thing went through! Also, why don't Web pages indicate how large a graphic is? Ftp files have their sizes listed, so why shouldn't in-lined graphics? It's plain foolish! I tried downloading a page to local disk, and sometime after the transmission of the page appeared to have concluded, a save requester popped up, but upon clicking Save my computer crashed! In fact, as Steve warned me, I crashed a dozen times today alone, although I was on the Web for several hours, checking it to the extent that I could. At least the seperately available AMHotlist program works as advertised, and that saves a lot of time, but for any of you who have read my rant this far I *highly* recommend that you set the default start page of AMosaic to some local html document on your own computer–that way you avoid all the time and connect charges that are otherwise wasted while AMosaic waits for its connection request to the AMosaic home page, or whatever, to be processed. Then I tried telnet-ing to Compuserve, just to see how it worked–and performance is *beyond* awful!! I hit a key, and some seconds later the letter appeared on screen. Backspace did not work. Is this an artifact of telnet-ing to compuserve.com from compuserve.com? There's another phenomenally annoying feature of the Web–the display of each in-lined graphic is processed as a *seperate request* even if I don't have the display of inlined images delayed!!! Why is this!!? Why can't the whole page be transmitted at once? This would almost make it worthwhile to get inlined images without delay, because each seperate request can take seconds, minutes, or, apparently, hours, to process!!!! Is this just the way AMosaic works, or is every single Web surfer stuck with this assinine limitation? And there's often little or no indication of what a particular in-lined image is, so there's hardly ever a way to tell whether it's worth getting. A couple times they're essential, and some are utilitarian enough but could easily be replaced by text, but mostly they're frivolous at best, and more likely ill-conceived! Now I'm sure there's plenty of really good stuff out there on the Web. I already did some ftp-ing, and that's useful enough by itself. But the cost to figure out where there's good stuff is staggering! And the net just doesn't seem to be even close to up to the demands placed on it. As I mentioned I visited several places that had ENORMOUS waits, caused I assume by high demand, but even a request to connect to the AMosaic home page took a very long time most times, and I can't imagin there are all that many people going there, at least compared to the overall net traffic. Why is this? I'm sure there are more preposterous things that I didn't notice, or that I did and forgot by now–I was continually amazed at how poor the interface really is. The single worst thing is that you can't abort a request that's taking too long, but it's closely followed by the processing of in-lined images as individual requests. Now I don't know which of these problems are due to the nature of the net, which to AMosaic, which to the Amiga, and so on. Certainly the chip RAM thing is Amiga specific, and it's ridiculous–I have a RetinaZ3, and even when Cybergraphics supports its blitter the darn datatype is still going to suck up chip RAM, although hopefully then I'll have much more to spare. And I don't know much about the internet and tcp/ip and so on, so I'm sure some of the terms I used in this post are wrong. But regardless, I's *really* appreciate any explanations anyone might have–and any tips to improve things. AMosaic itself seems to perform mostly very well when it's working. When there are no outstanding connection requests, my 1024x768x256 AMosaic screen will scroll basically in real time. But real time, a term which I've seen bandied about plenty of times in describing the Web–"a real time kiosk", etc–most definitely does *NOT* describe the Web. Also, could anyone tip me as to where to find Archie and Veronica and gopher and so on for use from my Amiga? I'd understood that most internet service providers have them on their machines, and you run them remotely, but is that true for CIS Internet access? The Web is nice enough in some ways–if it would only SPEED UP!!! and if AMosaic would only allow me to cancel requests if they're taking too long–but I'm sure that text-only interfaces are a lot faster. Well, that's the end of my rant for now. TIA Mr. Zombie
#192907From: steve pondApr 17, 1995 7:10 AM
Phew! I can't say I've found the Web as slow as you say, my initial homepage appears (sans graphics) in about 4 seconds.. Could it be the amount of traffic on your provders computer that is slowing things down? Anyway, the only tip I can offer for now is ..see that little button on the bottom right hand corner, the flashing blob in 1.2 or the spinning hand in 1.3beta thats the abort transfer button.. I hit that as soon as I see an image is 100k+ <g> Steve
#192937From: Bart Van BockstaeleApr 17, 1995 11:30 AM
>>Anyway, the only tip I can offer for now is ..see that little button on the bottom right hand corner, the flashing blob in 1.2 or the spinning hand in 1.3beta thats the abort transfer button.. I hit that as soon as I see an image is 100k+ <g><< Thanks for the info. But yes, for me the web is HORRIBLY slow… Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#192940From: steve pondApr 17, 1995 12:23 PM
Ok, for the heck of it I just logged on to the Web using Mosaic and put the stopwatch on how long it took to hop between pages.. From launcing Mosaic to My homepage appearing = 3 seconds (I use Amiga Computings home page as it's at the same domain as my account..) From there to Aminet = 6 seconds To Howard Sterns Homepage = 9 seconds To Yahoos hotlinks = 12 seconds To Justins links from the underground = 9 seconds Home again = 3 seconds… It looks like an average of 8 – 10 seconds, not -too- bad for a dialup account I'd guess.. however if you're used to a direct connection it must look pretty pityfull.. <g> btw, I have inline images turned off… Steve
#192963From: Paul IdolApr 17, 1995 2:38 PM
I guess it's a matter of perspective. My times are worse than that, but not like 10x worse or anything. Why am I not surprised that Stern has a homepage… Mr. Zombie
#193030From: Bart Van BockstaeleApr 17, 1995 7:44 PM
Good suggestion, I'll try that this week-end with a stopwatch too. But I really am sure that it is horribly slow. I also turned the inline images off. Could it be that it is so slow because: 1) We have only a 9600 connection 2) Nearly everything we look at is at the other side of the ocean ????? Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#193050From: Paul IdolApr 17, 1995 8:39 PM
(1) yes, (2) not necessarily. I don't know exactly where the AMosaic home page is, but it took me 1:30 to get there first, and then 3:30 to get to the FAQ. Mr. Zombie
#193086From: Bart Van BockstaeleApr 17, 1995 10:36 PM
>>(2) not necessarily. I don't know exactly where the AMosaic home page is, but it took me 1:30 to get there first, and then 3:30 to get to the FAQ.<< I haven't timed it with a stopwatch yet, but I guess that must be about the times I get. When I work with Windows I get crazy because of the lack of speed. But when I compare this to the Web… Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#193103From: Paul IdolApr 17, 1995 11:09 PM
Yah, I was wrong when I said my times were less than 10x as long as Steve's–they're worse. A few locations seem to be faster. Mr. Zombie
#193196From: Bart Van BockstaeleApr 18, 1995 1:02 PM
>>Yah, I was wrong when I said my times were less than 10x as long as Steve's–they're worse.<< He has a 100 MBit line I guess,…<g> Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#193229From: steve pondApr 18, 1995 5:15 PM
>>>He has a 100 MBit line I guess,…<g> I WISH!! I have a standard dial-up account with Demon UK and use a 14,400 modem.. I'm in the slow lane too buddy! (But I'm overtaking that fellow in the 9.600baud Trabant… <g>) Steve
#193266From: Bart Van BockstaeleApr 18, 1995 7:59 PM
>>But I'm overtaking that fellow in the 9.600baud Trabant… <g>)<< US! <weep> Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#193228From: Lieven LemaApr 18, 1995 5:00 PM
Bart, apparantly things could speed up when using a registered version of PPP.device, the unregistered or evaluation version doesn't support compression (see the docs). We could be webbing better, but it will cost an additional 15$. Lieven Lema …on AutoPilot from Belgium
#193267From: Bart Van BockstaeleApr 18, 1995 7:59 PM
Lieven, I have my doubts. I think this will only help if you really are downloading many pictures but I didn't see any for now and it is still slow. I don't think that it will be quicker to connect with or without registered version… Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#193251From: Alex BakerApr 18, 1995 6:49 PM
I don't have a direct access to the Internet. However, the local talk here is that the best net software is now something called MLink 1.17. Harv Laser used to live here, and drops through the local BBS on a regular basis. (He's written for several Mags, and is the Amiga Zone Guru over on Portal.) According to Harv, ATCP has been rendered obsolete by this software. (It's shareware $25, but fully functional as distributed.) Supposedly it is available at a web site, hope I get this right: http://www.hut.fi/~oahvenla/mlink/ If that looks wrong, then evidently I miscopied it from the message. Supposedly the author is at the above web page. I haven't tried accessing it yet, so haven't verified the accuaracy of the information. – Alex…. Still Whap!'n after all these years
#193274From: Bart Van BockstaeleApr 18, 1995 9:11 PM
Thanks for the info! I'll try to check it out this week-end! Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#193293From: Marlene Zenker/SYSOPApr 18, 1995 9:37 PM
MultiLink can only be used if you're dialing into a UNIX system. The Multilink software runs there, and on your Amiga. It's a similar concept to "term" on Linux, or TIA in windows. It's a great concept, but if you're not (which most people aren't), then you should use AmiTCP. With it (and PPP version 1.30) you can set up direct access to the Internet through CompuServe.
#193361From: Dale LarsonApr 19, 1995 8:13 AM
MLink does look really cool, but I'm sure Harv didn't mean that AmiTCP has been rendered obsolete — just that for people who are using TCP/IP entirely as a way to run a few Internet apps, and who have access to a Unix box to run MLink on, MLink is a great option. AmiTCP still has a place in TCP/IP LANs, with people who have SLIP/PPP but not a Unix shell account, etc. dale@iam.com http://www.iam.com Intangible Assets Manufacturing
#193172From: steve pondApr 18, 1995 10:25 AM
Hi Bart, Yup, thats your problem, get a 28k modem! ..I've only got a 14,400 one which common opinion would indicate is the minimum speed for a dialup net connection.. I doubt the ocean is a problem, (I'm in the UK) unless your in that EuroTunnel, now -theres- some ocean trouble.. <g> Steve
#193243From: Bart Van BockstaeleApr 18, 1995 5:58 PM
Steve, >>Yup, thats your problem, get a 28k modem! ..I've only got a 14,400 one which common opinion would indicate is the minimum speed for a dialup net connection..<< Impossible I fear, We've only a 9.6K node! >>I doubt the ocean is a problem, (I'm in the UK) unless your in that EuroTunnel, now -theres- some ocean trouble.. <g><< Fortunately I'm not, but I guess you're right.<G> Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#193132From: Jonathan BlackwellApr 18, 1995 1:57 AM
What is Howard Stern's URL ? -Jonathan MAC Quadra/486PC compatible courtesy Amiga, Emplant and BB. Emplant beta tester. Running AP v1.80. E-mail: JonathanB@delrina.com http://www.delrina.com
#193174From: steve pondApr 18, 1995 10:25 AM
I find Howard at: http://krishna.cs.umd.edu/stern/ It's a (good) unofficial page, but it points to 3 others.. Steve
#192962From: Paul IdolApr 17, 1995 2:37 PM
Steve- Thanks for the tip. I think I hit that button to see what it did and nothing happened, but I may be wrong. I'll try it! Btw, while I'm on the subjects, here are two things I forgot to mention: Why isn't there a status bar for ALL transfers instead of only for some? Some show the size of the whatever that's being sent, and a graphic gauge off the transfer status, so that I know how big whatever it is that's being sent is. Others just show the message READ xxxx bytes, without ANY indication of how many more bytes there are to be read! And why are pages only buffered backwards? If I go onto a page, and then back out, the backout is instantaneous, buffered on my computer I assume, but if I decide to go back into that page, it's a request all over again!!! Also, does anyone know which kind of memory is used for the image buffer that's specified in the prefs file? Mr. Zombie
#192968From: steve pondApr 17, 1995 3:39 PM
I wondered about the status bar for all messages to, I can only guess that some htmls are preceded by a header with the size in it whereas others arn't.. When you say things only buffered backwards have you tried going forward using the "Window history" by double clicking on the page of your choice.. works like the thread list in AP.. I've no idea which memory is used for the message buffer, I'd assume fast as although I've 16 megs of 32bit fast Ram I've only 1 meg of chip, and I've never run out… <g> Steve
#192994From: Paul IdolApr 17, 1995 6:17 PM
Steve- No, I hadn't tried window history. I'll give it a whirl. The screen gets to be awfully cluttered then, though–AMosaic itself, the Hotlist, and the Window History. Also, for anyone out there, AMHotlist seems to break when you cancel the first request for the homepage. I haven't tried it yet cancelling later requests. Mr. Zombie
#192991From: Marlene Zenker/SYSOPApr 17, 1995 5:30 PM
"If I decide to go back into that page, it's a request all over again!!!" Are you clicking on the link, or clicking on "forward"?
#192998From: Paul IdolApr 17, 1995 6:17 PM
On the link. Isn't "forward" impossible to resolve? It could mean forward to any of a number of links, right? Mr. Zombie
#192928From: Bart Van BockstaeleApr 17, 1995 10:49 AM
>>I tried downloading a page to local disk, and sometime after the transmission of the page appeared to have concluded, a save requester popped up, but upon clicking Save my computer crashed! In fact, as Steve warned me, I crashed a dozen times today alone, although I was on the Web for several hours, checking it to the extent that I could.<< Same thing over here, Paul. It seems to me you just ran in what I weep for since years: every computer I bought was *bad* have I been told. In nearly all literature my computers were bad and the peecees and macs were just plain wonderful. They only “forgot'' to mention they didn't work. It's probably the same thing here: everyone is hysterical about the web: it's wonderful, it's fantastic, it's unbeatable, it's the best! It doesn't work but that's no problem: who *wants* something that works? Nobody, right? If only it's professional. The Information Super Highway should probably be named the Information Super Hokum…. Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#192939From: steve pondApr 17, 1995 12:08 PM
Hmmm.. I've used Mosaic to save files with both types of requester (Amiga Req and the Mosaic single line one..) and I've had no crashes at all.. the only time I've managed to freak it out is when I drag the window out to full screen, that results in a lock-up.. I think it may be more to do with picasso that Mosaic though. ..If I drag it open in 2 stages I have no problem.. Steve
#192964From: Paul IdolApr 17, 1995 2:38 PM
More like the Information Cattle Path, Bart! <BG> Mr. Zombie
#192990From: Marlene Zenker/SYSOPApr 17, 1995 5:30 PM
Indeed, the web's much cooler if you have a very fast connection, or a browser that's a bit smarter about how it goes onto the web. Add to that the problem of the remote site being part of the limiting factor, and you get…well, you've already gotten the idea of why things are slow. Soooooo…. what to do? Well, first, don't use the default site when you start Amosaic. Either the remote machine is very slow, it has lots of traffic going to it, or *it's* connection is slow. You can start Amosaic up to a different site by adding any URL to the command line, like so: amosiac http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/ And that'll connect you to the NCSA's home page. If you want to abort the request, click on the button in the lower right hand corner of Amosaic 1.2, or the dial in the later versions. I believe that should stop the transfer in progress when data is being transferred. It may take a few seconds if you do it during a connect, depending on how things were coded. "Also, why don't Web pages indicate how large a graphic is?" Good question. I think the HTML-3 spec has the ability to specify the image height and width. What good does that do? Well, then your browser can allocate that room on the page, and throw the text up on the screen while your images are being downloaded. Not all browsers support this. I expect if that's not already in Amosaic, it's something they're working on. The size (in bytes) of the image is displayed at the bottom of the window while it's being downloaded. Can you upload that Hotlist program if it's not already here? "What can't the whole page be transmitted at once?" The HTTP protocol doesn't let you do it. I think this was done for a couple of reasons. First, it keeps the HTTP server on the remote site from being to bogged down with parsing every document and figuring out which images to send. That being the case, you have to download the HTML document first, and then the browser on your side can figure out which new pics it needs. In some browsers, images are cached, and therefore don't require retransmission. Some even keep pictures between online sessions. That reall y speeds things up…..if you have a browser that support it. I'd be willing to bet that the Amosaic folks recognize this limitation, and will do something about it. I believe that gopher's available native in later versions of Amosaic. Just type: gopher://gopher.site.here/ (I'm not sure about that tho…I haven't tried it yet). Connect to: http://www.yahoo.com/ And search for keyword ARCHIE for WEB pages that support archie. That's how I use it these days. Steve
#192997From: Paul IdolApr 17, 1995 6:17 PM
Yah, well, I'm sure even with a 28.8k connection the Web will be slow. If CIS at least supported compression things might be a little better. And AMosaic could be a *lot* better. It should be able to download pages to one's local computer and have them be *useable* and only updated if the real page has changed. I downloaded a 1/2MB gopher tree over at the Library of Congress before I knew about he cancel button, and there was no size indication anyway, and it was *USELESS*! Except as a reference, but I couldn't seem to load it into AMosaic and click on a document and then jump there. I'm definitely going to set a different default site for AMosaic, because I timed it today for the AMosaic home page and it took 1:30 to get the first page. I'll upload the Hotlist now. >>"What can't the whole page be transmitted at once?" The HTTP protocol doesn't let you do it.<< If the protocol was more sophisticated, it could process everything quickly even with dependant sends, like based on graphic size thresholds and cached graphics and so on. It sounds to me like HTTP is VERY dumb. The big delays for me are much more from waiting for connections rather than transfers. And some links seem like you have to get the graphic first–there aren't always those little arrows above the inlined graphic icon. I did find gopher support, although there are a lot of pages–gopher and otherwise–that seem to be down. They refuse access. And then some of them seem to time out. The big problem seems to be that they're putting more eye-candy into the web than the web can handle–when you consider that the vast majority of web surfers must be using serial connections. I'm sure the web is a marvel when you're hooked up directly to a backbone, although I imagine that connection requests can be almost as slow–isn't most of the time waiting for a connection spent while the server processes the request, or is most of it spent waiting for the request to travel? Anyway, thanks for your time and thoughts. Mr. Zombie
#193153From: Marlene Zenker/SYSOPApr 18, 1995 5:14 AM
I agree about the big pics. Some sites have HUGE pictures, and GIFs at that. Luckily, JPEGs are becoming more common since newer versions of some browsers support 'em. That'll help cut on transmission time. I find that the most time is spent having the server process the request. Steve
#193185From: Paul IdolApr 18, 1995 12:28 PM
I can't seem to display JPEGs. I have a JPEG datatype, although it's slow… but when transfer is completed I just get a lined box or grey space. Mr. Zombie
#193127From: Black Belt SystemsApr 18, 1995 1:56 AM
Paul, Your problems are _completely_ software related. When I wander the WEB, using either SLIP _or_ PPP, things just march right along. No delays, no problems. I use a 486/dx4/75 & the usual Windows browsers. SLIP is fine (at 14.4kb) as is PPP. –Ben …via AutoPilot
#193135From: Paul IdolApr 18, 1995 2:03 AM
Ben- Huh. So what software do you recommend using? Or is there nothing I can do other than find a different provider? Because plenty of people here are having similar problems. It also varies widely among different web sites. IAM's page, for example, comes up relatively quickly, and I've now set that as my default site because of it. Mr. Zombie
#193342From: Black Belt SystemsApr 19, 1995 3:26 AM
Paul, On the Amiga, I don't know – I just wanted to be sure you knew that the net, the web, is not at fault here. I use a Windows machine exclusively for internet access at this poimt. –Ben …via AutoPilot
#193349From: Paul IdolApr 19, 1995 5:42 AM
Ben- What software do you use, then? Because I've heard plenty of Windozers complain too. My understanding is that Interscope is pretty good–better than Mosaic, anyway–so maybe I'll try it when I get my Emplant up and running, but the single biggest problem for me is the long wait after AMosaic says "Done sending http request" before I actually start receiving page data or whatever. How much is that really affected by software on my end? This is also bourn out by the fact that some pages–such as IAM's–are much more responsive than others. Fortunately for you, but not for the rest of us, your experience seems to be atypical. Mr. Zombie
#193513From: Black Belt SystemsApr 20, 1995 4:25 AM
Well, lets see. For all my net access _except_ the WEB, I use "Internet in a box". Nice email, about as good a newsreader as I've seen except you can't read offline. FWIW, I also bought and extensiuvely tried "Chameleon", and my summary opinion of that software is it couldn't be much worse and still be called "software". The news reader is purest, absolute unmitigated junk, the mail is crippled, and the low level connect software seems to be designed to drive you directly out of your mind. Don't buy it. Ever. 🙂 For the WEB, I use "NetScape". This I downloaded from the appropriate ftp site, which I no longer have any idea where was, sorry – but net denizens should be able to direct you to it, it's popular as all get out – that's how I heard about it. The web software that comes with IIAB in a box isn't nearly as nice as the netscape product, and it all works together seamlessly, so there you go. For the low level connection underneath IIAB, I use "Trumpet", which works _extremely_ well. Got this off a net site in Ireland. 🙂 The only problem with the IIAB setup was that the underlying dialer ASSumes you will be using the selected set of service providers in the box; I wasn't, and don't plan to. You can't write scripts worth snot in the IIAB low level connect manager (it makes too many assumptions), so I couldn't make it work with my provider. I then went on an oddessy I *really* didn't want to have to do in order to learn exactly what bizzare and peculiar protocols I'd have to handle with Trumpet to get to my provider – I managed to get it all going (I'm very stubborn.. 🙂 and at this point everything is going very well. I now know more than I ever wanted to about Trumpet and the IBM provider I use, but with a great deal of directed effort, I'm forgetting it as fast as I can. 🙂 All of this runs _very_ well on my 486 dx4/75 laptop under windows 3.1. We have a complete Internet site running; "blackbelt.com" We have set up WEB services, ftp, and various email channels and so internetting is quite important at this point. Only CIS compares in volume to the internet at this time, and the trend is clear – CIS will soon be behind. The noise level on the net is nothing less than horrible, but we've methods in place to help deal with it that are working well for us. Me, I prefer CIS for a number of reasons, but this is business, so I've not got a great deal of choice. Anyway, hope that all helps. –Ben …via AutoPilot