AMI IN FEDERAL OFFICES
60 messages in this thread
Ray,
Commodore had an opportunity to get Amiga 2500UX machines into BOEING Aircraft
for Unix, DeskTop Video and General Computing. The rep from Boeing went to CES
or Comdes (I forget which) and couldn't get any help at the Commodore booth.
It took an independent software manufacturer who was displaying in the
Commodore booth to approach this person who had just been shunned by the
Commodore sales reps. He took this man's business card to Max Toy and finally
the man was helped.
If it were not for this independent person who saw an opportunity (One that the
Commodore reps surely missed) Boeing would not have an Amiga.
Max Toy did send a 2500UX system to Boeing in the end, and THEN the ignorant
reps tried to make the sales…
I wonder what Commodore would do it IBM wanted to buy their computers?
An aside, the largest computer users group within the IBM organization here in
Canada is comprised of Amiga owners.
Brian R. Niessen DesignTech
You hear stories like this all the time. I don't give these stories much
credibility. After all, if someone is hot on the Amiga, they would certainly
try harder, if people in the booth were busy. And if they weren't serious
about the Amiga, let's say they walked away from the booth without any answers,
and they bought an XYZ clone, then what was lost? If the clone makes them
happy, fine. If they aren't smart enough to know that an Amiga is cheaper than
a Mac II, so what?
I thought the whole point was, this guy would supposedly get better treatment
from IBM. You must have meant to say, if the CBM reps really did help the
potential customers, they'd be good enough to work for IBM. Ever hear of the
Peter Principle? People get promoted until they can't be promoted any more,
meaning they get promoted to their level of incompetence.
Use the RM Function to read
these messages.
Andre, please read my message again. I wasn't insulting the customer,
imaginary as they may be. I wasn't insulting CBM. Please read my other
messages in this thread, if you think I'm being nasty.
Andre, you provide order to an otherwise chaotic CI$! By the way, I think
the person you meant to send flames to was, as USUAL, Ben Blish! %^>
— Ethan
Are you serious? Ben? Funny, I don't think I saw his name in this thread on
the header! Well, I should have expected it; when I'm not around he'll feel
free to sling around insults. :->
He must have changed the header to your name. 🙂 Sorry the lightning fell in
the wrong place. andre
What's the large company?
— Ethan P.S. The chance of your being able to answer that is minute at
best. %^>
Ethan,
The story was told to me by the independent salesman who took the BOEING
person's business card to Max Toy and is now looking after the BOEING sales and
support.
Luckily, none of the sales will be lost, but hopefully a lot more will be
relalized from the quick reaction of the people other than the sales reps.
Sincerely, Brian R. Niessen DesignTech Business Systems Inc.
What did I say about customers? If anything, I was complaining about the
story, not the people involved. These apocryphal examples of CBM blowing a
sale are not good for anybody. I didn't say anything bad about customers in
general. I'm very well aware of customers being my bread and butter. My point
about "so what" means: if this person who walked into the booth expects to do
real business at a COMDEX, or that they're going to ignore the Amiga because
they can't get someone's attention working the show floor, and they have the
bucks to go buy a Mac, then who cares? This person is making an impulse
purchase, or a purchase to cover their behindI certainly hope that you aren't
implying that "convincing" customers entails mispresentation, or that a company
that doesn't spend $7 million a year on t-shirts (as Apple does) must be doing
the wrong thing…
Customers? We get plenty of fan mail. We answer every question we get, every
letter, every phone call. We got a letter this morning that said "I'm glad I
didn't buy InterFont. Thank God I didn't spend the money on it. It doesn't
work!" End of letter. It contained three or four sentences, on very nice
letterhead. We're going to write him a nice letter, too, asking him what he
meant.
Don't forget that you're often getting the opinions of John Foust, Inc., when
I'm online. I do hold back a lot, maintaining that corporate look, when it
says "Syndesis" on the by-line. Do you think everyone at Black Belt Systems
acts like Ben, too? 🙂
Use the RM Function to read
these messages.
I think that unfairly we are knocking the IBM series of machines (and
compatibles of course). IBM's cost too much so I won't even bother to defend
them. But others, such as Compaq, and yes, the Commodore Colts. What they are
are powerful, text based machines. With a 386/25 machine, or now a 386/33
machine, you have very high speed machines which are great for things like
Lotus and dBASE. I tell people who just want those kinds of functions that the
MS-DOS world is the place for them. But for people who have other things in
mind, or even want a mix of things, definitely look elsewhere.
— Ethan
Well, I have been trying to avoid the more caustic approach, in favor of a more
reasoned approach. Say what can be done, what it *is* good for, etc.
Unfortunately, I have been received with what can best be called a "smug,
so-what attitude." It goes back to what has been said in several places, that
CBM, in order to make a splash, has to do it *much* better than Apple or DOS
compatibles.
–Gabe
How about the "soft pillows?"
[O O] Rick "No one expects the Span– oh bloody heck!" Stevens
?
V
Nooooo, "He must be made of sterner stuff…"
Gabe [quickly losing my mind in NYC]
Ray, unless I'm completely mixed up, you either sent that to the wrong
person or you misunderstood. My understanding is that Syndesis was defending
the man from Boeing and attacking the representatives who ignored him.
— Ethan
Preach it Ray!!! I'm sick of hearing complaints about customers. I've been on
both sides of the counter and I know what kind of people are buying software.
Yes, some of them give a bad name to stupidity! <grin> Regardless, the
customer's money is what makes the company go-round.
Michael St. Laurent
Right. Final word: The customer knows best and is always right.
(But sometimes it is a little hard to swallow, especially when someone is being
rude. Remember who you're talking to on the other end: they're human too and
a lot of times are innocent. Dispense wrath with discretion.)
andre
Andre,
I prefer…
"The customer may not always be right, but he's _always_ the customer."
-larry
I think there's lots of people like that, lots of developers like that. Some
people hear about new technology, some people don't. That's the way the world
works. Some people have all sorts of obstacles against new concepts, new
hardware, new software. But obviously, we don't, cause we're all in the Amiga
Forum. 🙂
I'm surprised that this person didn't know about the Amiga, as the one
place commodore did manage to advertise was MTV!! 8^>
— Ethan P.S. For people who didn't know, that's not a joke. MTV and VH-1
were it.
That's very interesting, you say Boeing got a 2500UX already. This is CBM
USA, not the european branch shipping it trans-atlantic? Do you know if it was
merely a prototype, because if it wasn't, commodore has a finalized version
almost ready. Finally.
— Ethan
I, like you, suppose that this is a Prototype system. I talked to Commodore
Canada today and they have 3 UX models in Canada for display purposes. But I
guess if a company as large as BOEING is interested, they will comply.
I konw the Canadian federal gov't is looking for the UX models as well.
Sincerely, Brian R. Niessen DesignTech Business Systems Inc.
Well, all of that is good news vis a vis the Amiga. Getting governments and
large corporations to participate in the evaluation and beta/gamma testing of
hardware and software for something like the UX is precisely the right thing to
do. Just as intelligent as getting talented computer artists to evaluate
prototype paint programs, professional TV production folks for video, or
professional developers for programming languages and tools.
They own a piece of the effort themselves, and they feed back real world
condierations about design and execution.
I know all this sounds quite obvious, however, a) there has been scant evidence
CBM has understood this in the past and b) I sometimes get the feeling around
here that a lot of Amigans would actually prefer to have the machine be our
little secret, and would be upset if it actually became widely accepted by
crass, uncool folks like the Fortune 500.
?|^] Ray Lewis
(P.S. I don't mean the majority. But I think that shoe fits quite a few
people around here, and if it pinches a bit, that's too bad.)
What you say about the Amiga becoming popular does sort of ring true. It
has been a fight from the beginning. Its exciting to crusade for what's right,
and to be able to be smugly superior and correct in so being. Assuming (as I
do) that the Amiga will (eventually) become a big-name machine, it will be
hard.
The idea of CBM giving a machine to Boeing, although apparently obvious,
seems to be a PERFECT way of introducing it to people who are unfamiliar with
it. I know that there are some people where I work (with Citicorp) who might be
interested in buying one. Currently, they've wasted, IMHO, tons of money on Sun
386i. Before Larry comes down on me like a ton of bricks, the Sun is a great
machine, but it is being used primarily for Lotus and WordPerfect MS/DOS! The
whole thing is being networked.
What if CBM had offered to a group like ours looking to network a 2500UX?
Things might have been somewhat different. Also, Commodore should get off its
high-horse that all products should have a commodore label on them and sell an
A2525 with a 25 MHz GVP 68030 board. Everything I've heard rates them
exceptional, the fastest thing on a PC. There is nothing better available, and
for a demanding unix system (as it is inherently a multi-user system) speed is
of the essence!
— Ethan P.S. Was there any common thread to this message?????
Puh-leeeze! "Don't complain about that fly in your soup, then everyone will
want one." First of all, if we begin to incorporate other people's hardware in
our products we might as well begin to close shop. First the payments would be
astronomical in hardware and royalties, then we're not an OEM company (why
don't you market the 2525 if it'll make a million?!) Then everyone from Tecmar
to Microforge (remember them?) will want us to put a controller in the box.
It's mostly that we're trying to provide something as a solution and also as a
flexible box. Want a 2525? No prob. Create it. You have the technology, as
they used to say with Steve Austin. 🙂 andre
The reason I feel this way is mainly for the upcoming UNIX machine. What
about people who want a 68030 unix machine? Unless CBM has some big surprise
coming (a A2630 board coming out a lot sooner than anyone thinks) people will
be stuck with either a 68020 or buying the whole system piece-meal. By the way,
when I mentioned using GVP's card, I did mean trying to negotiate a deal where
both sides would benefit. I imagine that there must be some middle ground that
works. What about the high-res card being developed at the U. of Lowell?
— Ethan
A2630? Ahem, no comment. :-]
High res card, faster stuff, etc., it's there and it's coming, but no
specifics. It's no use to worry about something that isn't materialized yet,
unless you're a hardcore type-A, you know. andre
Andre,
Hazy (Dave Haynie…B2000 designer) has mentioned the A2630 several
times on UseNet…so not to worry, the cat's already out of the bag…but we
understand you can't comment on it.
<grin>
Don
Andre, I was wondering if you had any comments on the fact that commodore
spends a relatively small per cent of its budget on R&D as compared to other
major companies? I heard 4% as compared with 8%.
— Ethan
Ahh, Tecmar and MicroForge. I still run one of each. The Tecmar is still one
of the best looking drives and the fastest. The Version 1.1 software drivers
is still running perfectly under KS 1.3
Too bad…
Sincerely, Brian R. Niessen DesignTech Business Systems Inc.
Ethan, why does CBM have to do it? Quoting from an ad in today's Washington
Post: Commodore Amiga…68030/68882…4 Mb 32 bit Ram… 1 Mb Video Ram…40 Mb
HD….etc. $5495.00. One of our local dealers has added GVP stuff to an A2000HD
and is selling it bundled.
There were two Amiga ads in the Post today; one was full page and the above
68030 machine was 1/8th page. Both were in the entertainment section…..the
Widow strikes again. Rob.
In most businesses, people like to buy the product in a "formal" approved
package. If individual stores bundle packages, that's great. But for certain
systems like the upcoming 2500UX, there is no equivalent 2000 that can simply
have cards added to it. It would be a lot more expensive than simply having
commodore give a 68030 version of the 2500UX, and I feel the easiest and
cheapest way for commodore to do this, without sacrificing quality, is to take
cards from GVP.
— Ethan
Ethan,
???? The simplest way for CBM would be to buy 68030 cards from GVP????
Perhaps their PC division should simply buy PC's from IBM and re-sell
them also? Of course, IBM PCs are inferior to CBM's clones…but I guess that
doesn't matter (to you).
Since the A2620 is superior to the GVP 68020 card, one would presume
that the CBM A2630 card is superior to the GVP 68030 card…unless GVP suddenly
got real smart.
BTW, I don't know where you're getting your information, but you
certainly can upgrade an A2000 to an A2500UX when it becomes available.
Take 1 plain jane A2000, add the following:
A2090a with 80 Meg HD
A2620 coprocessor card with 4 Meg 32 bit RAM
150 Meg Qtape drive (hooks to A2090a I believe)
Amiga UNIX software on tape cartridge
Tah dah!!! Assemble carefully and you've suddenly got an A2500UX.
Don
Don,
The Commodore PC-60 ('286 machine) here in Canada is actually an Intel board in
the Commodore case (For now, they say).
Bri
Sincerely, Brian R. Niessen, DesignTech Business Systems Inc.
Bri,
Intel doesn't sell machines…they're an OEM supplier. Just like CBM
doesn't make drives…they buy them from an OEM supplier.
That's not the same as buying the IBM motherboard.
Don
Don,
'Scuse me, but GVP doesn't have a 68020 card.
Lloyd
Don, don't get so defensive! First of all, GVP doesn't make a 68020 card,
so I'm not sure what you're saying. From everything I've heard, the 68030 card
is an excellent card, extremely fast. It is also flexible, capable of handling
MHz's that aren't multiples of the current 7.14 system clock. GVP's card is
also already capable of handling UNIX. It seems like a match made in heaven!
There are only just so many dollars available to CBM with which to give to R&D.
If an excellent product is already available, it seems like commodore is making
things more difficult.
Also, about being easy to upgrade from the 2000 to the 2500UX, I don't
deny that every part is available, but are they readily available? Most stores
I know don't carry a 150meg tape drive! But some of them will carry the UX. Its
a neat, compact, preprepared bundle, no assembly required. Also, it is always
cheaper to buy something as a unit than to buy its component parts. The 2500
being a perfect example.
— Ethan
Large corporations as well as Commercial Developers who request UX systems can
get cleared for these systems. We're doing it for a big account in our area.
But yes, it's probably a prototype. andre
Andre, I was wondering if there was anyway that a large group like
citicorp could get there hands on some machines. They don't even have to be
unix prototypes, 2500 are fine. I think that there are some groups in citicorp
who might have a use for the machine but don't know anything about it.
— Ethan P.S. Citicorp owns Citibank and is the largest banking group in
America.
Yes, I know Citicorp. They also own my Visa card. 🙂
Get me the particulars in eplex or somehow. I'm very sure CMB would be willing
to work with you, as long as you ASK. Believe it or not most people still
prefer the Jewish Mother Method for asking: "How many Jewish Mothers does it
take to screw in a light bulb? Answer: "None: Oh, don't worry about me, I'll
just sit in the dark and go blind reading…no one cares…"
Believe me, that rings true, because I have one (a jewish mother, not a burned
out light bulb!) 🙂 andre
I see, Frech is jewish not German. Just a little curiosity. By the way,
if CBM does do dealings with Citibank, I really recommend you not make the typo
you just made on the message to me. You typed CMB instead of CBM. That's the
initials for Chase Manhattan Bank, one of CitiBank's biggest competitors in the
NYC market! Not that I mind, of course…
Will get back to you on it.
— Ethan
Hee hee, sorry, was that a freudian slip? Of course I should have said CBU.
And Frech is actually German, but someone changed the spelling a few
generations ago, and well, for lack of anything better to do, it stuck. But
the family-name books will denote it as german. But that's for another place
and time. andre
I know that CBU is the stock symbol, but what does the U stand for?
— Ethan
Ethan, not always does a company get the symbol the ways.
CBM belongs to a mobile home manufacturer if I remember right. (That's the
stock symbol CBM, not the company Commodore Business Machines).
CBU is probably from Commodore BUsiness
^ ^^
Sincerely, Brian R. Niessen, DesignTech Business Systems Inc.
Yes, that's great Andre, BUT to they have to pay for them first? (The large
corporations).
There was a "story" about the use of an Amiga in the Star Trek movie, but
Commodore invoiced the studio for the Amiga. Then they invoiced them for
interest on the unpaid balance.
The studio sent the machine back and used a Mac for the great scene where
Scotty was trying to talk to the mouse.
Wasn't that typical of the "Ready, Shoot, Aim" attitude?
They did get an Amiga into "Prince of Darkness" with no effort on their part.
In fact, I bet Commodore didn't even know there was an Amiga on the show.
Sincerely, Brian R. Niessen DesignTech Business Systems Inc.
I wouldn't be too sure. We've been working on deals for about 2 years to put
Amigas into Disney, Warner Brothers, Universal, etc. Because you don't hear
about it doesn't mean they don't exist. Non disclosure, you know.
When I was a user group officer and heard about the Star Trek deal I also had
blood boiling, but hey, that was before I was with CBM and it's natural that
they might have been screwed up. 🙂 🙂 But there's no way to confirm that
story; just to continue and not to try to make the same mistakes. How would
you like it if everytime you tried to do something new I said that you were
evil and terrible because at one time humans practiced slavery, killed Christ,
got out of the trees, came out of the water…
Get the idea? Those who dwell in the past have no future. andre
Andre,
I too have been working since the prototype Amigas to get them everywhere, even
while I was at Commodore, BUT…
I have two TV shows on the air right now in Canada, and in September in the US
on FOX Network, and Commodore Canada will do NOTHING to help. They claim that
nobody watches these shows.
One is a 'Dump Slop On Kids' game show that is so popular with kids now which
used 7 Amigas on it, and we wanted Commodore to provide some machines (Even
C64's) as prizes (There were stereos, mountain bikes, etc as prizes) just so
that I could get the name AMIGA on the credits.
Since they did not donate ANYTHING, we are not allowed to say "Computer Systems
are Amiga", etc. All the credits said was "Computer Programming – Brian R.
Niessen".
And the crux of it all was that I had to stick my neck out and tell the
producer that I would not work on the show if they gave away ATARI computers,
of which Atari was not stingy about giving us.
This show is on every Saturday morning and reaches kids across all of Canada.
<continued>
<continuation>
The other show is an afternoon Game show that has excellent ratings and is in
it's second season. It is on 5 days a week and even has celebrity shows on in
the evenings once a week.
I use 6 Amiga systems on it providing Video, Audio, Lighting controls, etc, and
again all the credits say is "Computer Systems – Brian R. Niessen".
Since Commodore doesn't want to even acknowledge the existance of the Amigas in
real-life, real world TV work, what can I do to tell viewers that these are all
Amigas they are seeing???
Proud to be using Amigae, but it's no fun not being able to tell people!!
Sincerely, Brian R. Niessen, DesignTech Business Systems Inc.
Andre,
If you're willing to come and put on a show for Tallahassee Community
College (where I hope to meet you Thursday) I'd say you're indeed working
pretty hard on deals.
Chip Orange
Re: the Star Trek story … pretty typical of most companies, I'd guess. The
beancounters always get in the way <grin>.
Remember when they wanted "E.T." to follow M&M candies, but was refused because
they didn't want an "alien" eating M&M's? Then the producers went to Reese's
Pieces and that company made zillions off the association with E.T. Maybe they
told CBM that they were gonna make fun of a mouse-driven computer, and could we
have an Amiga for it? <kidding>
All companies shoot themselves at times. Just recently a lot of my friends who
had been given some Tandy machines TWO years ago to review, got invoices for
them all of a sudden! This after their reviews no doubt sold hundreds of
machines. Kinda ticked them off.
Like I said, typical beancounters. <sigh>