Mac Vs. Amiga
52 messages in this thread
Well I have great news for the Amiga Lovers, I have a 2000 and just got a
Mac SE30 a week ago. The Mac has been one problem after another! The
software is very good, but Apple ties you into there printers and other add
ons. I can't even get postscript. Worst of ALL I have a BAD HEADACHE ever
night after using the Mac. I think the 3000 and the 2.0 will put Amiga's in
the Mac league operating system wise and be a much better value without the
eyesore! I hate the tiny screen. I must give them credit for the operating
system and a few other items, but heck, I like my Amiga MUCH better. I felt
like a trader but I am selling the Mac and the 2000 and getting a loaded
3000. I have the HP Laser IIP with postscipt that I will keep. I found out
that you have to have the Appletalk card (port) to get postscript. The IIP
can use a standard postscript driver, but not with the Mac. I have to buy
HP's Appletalk card to get the two to work, but it's not available yet!!
AND almost $300.00 !! Long live the Amiga!! I just found out how much I
really like it!!
I hope this doesn't offend anyone! (Mac users) Just my opinion.
Thanks! Jamie
er, why'd you have to buy a MacSE? Can't you get by with using AMAX?
Steve
Well, I did not have to buy it. I took it on trade from a customer who has
or had a couple of Mac's. I got it for hundreds of dollars less than dealer
cost. He works for an Apple dealer and wanted a keyboard. I thought, what
the heck, I have had every computer except a Mac. I think I have it sold.
NOW I will have the money for the 3000 sitting in the bank!!
I may go ahead and get the Amax kit. Does it work very well? I have been
running DOS with the Mac by a program called SoftPC. It works great! I wish
we had it on the Amiga. It reads and write IBM stuff with no problems. It
even lets you set up a harddrive on the Mac HD. BUT my EYES still h hurt!!
Thanks, Jamie
Ever compared a Mac SE to a Mac IIfx (Apple's latest flagship)? The IIfx
has a 40 Mhz 68030, 6 32bit NUBUS slots, 1 processor direct slot, 32k
static ram cache, 4 megs superfast ram, 80meg internal harddrive, 1 3 1/2
super y drive (1.4 meg), extended keyboard that allows u to turn the
machine on & off right from the keyboard, etc, etc etc… Apple also has a
new video card (8 * 24 GC) which has 2megs of VRAM (expandable to 4megs),
NTSC compatible, and it's 24 bit capable (256 colors out of a palette of
16.7 million). The video card has a coprocessor RISC chip running at 30 Mhz
to help things move along a bit quicker. Not to mention that apple has more
third party hardware and software support than the Amiga has. Ever compared
a MACUSER or MACWORLD magazine to AmigaWorld or Amazing Computing in
thickness? True, the best thing that the Amiga has going right now is the
multitasking & DMA. Other than that, all u have is a serious game machine.
Everytime I go to an Amiga dealer 75 to 80% of the software on there
shelves are games. CBM is trying to catch up to the big boys with the new
A3000 but the lack of 24bit color will be it's Achilles heel. Not until CBM
addresses 24bit color, the Amiga will remain as is. Apples problem is that
there machines are over priced (IIfx $8500.00). But, if I could recover all
the money I spent on my system (2 A2000's, 1 Bridgeboard, 1 40 meg
hardcard, 1 80 meg harddisk, 2 S upra modems and other hardware &
software), I would have gladly gone MAC. In fact, I'm currently trying to
finance the dream system of my life ($13,500) I'm tired of waiting for new
technology from commodore. I'm especially tired of spending my hard earned
money on products that I will outgrow to quickly. Signed Un-sattisfied
Amiga User.
Chowdy Rafael,
Don't be so sure you'll be happy with your dream Mac system. I'd be
willing to be you run into a few unexpected problems when start using it.
That 256 color board your looking forward to means that when you save a
piece of artwork to disk, it's gonna take anywhere from 100-250K of disk
space. Disk drives may be cheaper for the Mac, but they aren't that cheap.
I can easily fill a 20-megabyte drive with the brushes and work files for
one graphic creation. I've found that the only way that I could possibly
work on the IICX that I have in the kitchen is if I go out and buy myself
some kind of removable storage system and a dozen or so cartridges for it.
With only 100 Meg of storage space it's just too cramped to do anything
useful with.
The art programs for it are wonderful and I'd love to have a program
similar to Studio 8 on the Amiga. But digitizers are lots more expensive
in the Mac realm and scanners run about the same price as Amigans pay.
I'm assuming of course, that since you mention 256 colors as being a
priority, you anticipate doing a lot of graphics work with your dream unit.
Yes, the Mac IIs are nice, but they do have their drawbacks. Chow, Cheryl
P!
Hi Cheryl.
Large files are to be expected if u are using 24 bit colors. If the Amiga
had 24bit capability, I'm sure the same problem would apply.
I think my biggest problem after purchasing a IIfx is where to get the
extra cash for software and getting used to the MAC's OS.
Imagine having the IIfx running under Amiga OS with CBM's prices. Ahhhhh…
Thanks for your reply.
Rafael,
Getting used to the Mac's operating system isn't that tough for someone
who's used an Amiga. Go back and forth between the two pretty easily. Sure
I'm not a Mac guru, so I don't use the MWP debugger to figure what happens
when a bomb blows up (grin). But I can figure out how to load and run
programs, etc.
I'm sure you'd have little trouble with the transition.
I do have to agree with about the prices though. They are more than a tad
on the high side.
Chow, Cheryl P!
There are a couple of ways of looking at the Amiga versus Macintosh
thing. The Amiga will ALWAYS be better suited for video than the Mac. That
will give it the ultimate edge in videographics and hence, this new
multimedia thing. It does you little good to have a fancy 24 bit graphics
card with a zillion by zillion resolution if the only place it can be
displayed is on a $5,000 RGB analog monitor. Things may change radically
when HDTV comes out of the motionless FCC hearings, but for now and a quite
a few years into the future, the Amiga isn't doing all that bad.
Certainly, if they could make a fast high pixel display for CAD and DTP,
it would be a great boon to the Amiga, but the big boys have those markets
pretty well sewn up. Even the Macintosh can't seem to break in.
I don't claim to be visionary, but I think that Amiga Inc. (not to be
confused with CBM) had a pretty good vision.
Lee Bosch
Hi Lee.
Apple's GC video card will allow u to control resolution. Whether u like
320×200 or zillionxzillion, u will be able to control the res and at 24bit
color to boot. If u wish to dump an image to a "MADE IN TAIWAN" VCR or to a
Radius 1024x? monitor, that choice is up to u. My opinion is that for a
machine to be great, it needs serious software and hardware to be available
TODAY, not tommorrow or next month…TODAY.
Yes, Amiga HAD a pretty good vision (5 years ago). CBM screwed it up.
Rafael: Excuse me for jumping in on your chat with Jamie, but:
I agree that most Amiga retail software dealers carry mostly games. But
don't misconstrue what you see on a wall with what's available. Many
powerful, high-end productivity packages are out there, including stuff
that does 24-bit color and desktop video ("multimedia," if you prefer). In
price-performance, these packages will blow away what's available (and
usually only runnable) on high-end Macs. That's why I bought two Amigas for
my cable TV studio. The A500 "serious game machine" in my house will run
most any Mac Plus package with an AMAX unit, but as yet I've found little
in the way of interesting/useful Mac software that doesn't cost more than
the AMAX hardware! The Amiga shareware market is well-developed and off in
numerous directions, which should ensure continued software evolution on
the machine. The Mac's a nice computer, but as you yourself point it, it's
overpriced. I would add: overhyped, overextended and, increasingly, overly
departed from its original, unhacked simplicity. Amiga — the computer for
the RESTIVE us.
Ron –
Actually, I heard it was "Amiga — the computer for the BEST of us" (stolen
from somebody else (whose name I can't recall at the moment).
Jeff Schweiger
Hi Ron.
Thanks for your reply.
At this point I wish to step-off this Mac Vs. Amiga flame and ask CBM to
read these 30+ message threads (are u there CBM?). Get off your cans and
start spending more money on R&D! Forget about T.V. ads with floating
houses and celebrity spotlights! U develop a machine that will blow the
hood off of these other machines and u'll soon discover the world of profit
sharing and christmas bonuses. Take heed 'cause time is running out. Amen.
] I hope I did not offend anyone with my opinions (opinions are like
***holes, everyone has one).
Ron writes:
Amiga — the computer for the RESTIVE us.
Rafael writes:
MAC II's — the computers for the RESTLESS us.
;^)
I have seen the II series. They look great! I am not knocking the Mac. I am
just heart broken and wallet broken that my printer can be used at this
time toget postscript.
The Mac OS is great and the software is just as good. I am not
trying to put the Mac down, just voicing my opinion. I hope I don't run
into problems with the 3000 on software.
Jamie
Enough! Enough! I must confess!
I was hired by Apple to brainwash u guy's into buying MAC's!
Repent! Save yourself's from the Amiga doldrums and go Apple or face the
horrible technological monster of computer obsolecence!
For a mere $8500.00, the Almighty J. Sculley will absolve u from your sins
and send u a MAC IIfx! Don't delay! Switch today (or I won't get my
commision for this quarter)! Hehehehe…
I've used AMAX a bit. It works well, but it doesn't support sound or a
hard drive. Hard drive support is being worked on.
Steve
Jamie
No, Rafael is not my brother… but he sounds like him. (Don't you like
these guys who forget the Mac has been around twice as long as the Amiga?
So why don't they have Multitalsking?)
;^}
wmc
Hi – I'm a not-offended Mac user (bet you guys have never seen one of
those). I don't want to argue with you but I might be able to help. I think
you could use your Mac applications to generate postscript files (by keying
Opt-f during a print) and then send those files to the HP with a serial
cable using Send PS (available on CServe, I think). The AppleTalk board
would be much more convenient but it isn't the only way.
Re the 3000. Doesn't it bother you that very little existing software seems
to run on it (from what I read here)? I'm about to add an Amiga to my
collection and I've decided on a 2000 so I can do something in the next 6
months.
Bill:
Don't sell the 3000 short just yet. The OS isn't in it's finalised form
yet, and many applications that don't work at this time probably will by
release time. Other programs that people are complaining about are mostly
games, that require a 68000 to run right.
-Mike Schiller
CIS: 76416,3065
I'm not looking to sell it short – I was just speculating that it might
take 6-9 months to "Get its act together" While games not running doesn't
bother me, I was wonder about things like titling and animation.
The 2.0 software is in beta. When it is released the existing will run.
Steve
Thanks for the opinion – I know its probably a dumb question but would you
like to speculate on when that might be?
Thanks
Bill Dwyer
Commodore has stated that September is the release date. While Commodore
may not exactly be known for their blazing speed on getting things to
market, they are also not known for blowing sunshine in our faces, and then
not delivering
a said product, when they say they will, either. -Rick
September sounds so far away … Maybe I will look at the 2000 again.
Bill
According to Commodore we'll be able to get it in September.
Steve
Thanks
Bill
Bill,
No one really knows what software will or won't run on the 3000, because
the operating system is not yet finished. The machines being shown are
demo versions only and they are running beta versions of the software. Each
new beta release is letting more of the older stuff work, and the
programmers are working on some of the software to make it work as well. So
– we just don't know yet. The 3000 was demonstrated at my club today, and
they showed us all of the software they had tested with the machine. It
included most of the big-name productivity packages, and all of the things
they brought along were working fine.
……Betty
Thanks for replying – and for the hard information- I think I might wait a
bit longer.
Bill Dwyer
Betty,
Could you name the "big-name"productivity packages that ran at your meeting
on the A3000? The machine my dealer has is very dissappointing (and a bad
sales tool) as it runs essentially only Dpaint and Excellence.
wmc
Bill,
Uh, the 3000 runs all the Amiga software using v1.3 of the operating
system. The new OS isn't exactly necessary to take advantage of the
advances of the A3000. While the finalized v2.0 will be in ROMs, it will
have been matured first by developers with compatibility foremost on their
minds.
Think of it this way- Doesn't it bother you that the Mac IIfx won't run
most of the current Mac software (false presumption, it will run most with
the right system software). Equivocate KS2.0 to System 7.0 on the Mac…
which doesn't run all of the Mac software. You confused hardware
compatiblity with operating system compatibility. Correctly written
software will run on any Amiga machine. While the '030 might cause
problems with incompatible instructions, the same situation arises on the
Mac, which uses the Motorola chips also.
-Chas
The problem with you mac assumption is that it isn't true. I had a IIfx
three days after the announcement by Apple. I moved my 600M hard disk full
of software from my II to the IIfx, installed the newest (and shipping)
version of the operating system(6.05) and was back in business in less than
30 minutes. I routinely use 40-60 Mac Applications and bushel basket full
of utilities, inits and cdevs. So far (1 month later) everything runs
except an oddball IEEE 488 interface control program.
I'm not looking for a religious war on Macs vs Amigas but I get the general
impression that there is less rigidly enforced standardization on the Amiga
which might result in more "new machine" problems. My impression that
"nothing works" on the 3000 was gathered from messages here.
Bill,
Your impression that "nothing works" on the A3000 isn't what the
situation really is. What's going on (and it's really unfortunate) is that
the current crop of A3000's that the dealers have are running a beta
version of the operating system. Thus, while there certainly are programs
that don't run (as well as a great many that do run)…so of those problems
are related to bugs still remaining in the OS, rather than any problem with
the software.
I like the idea that Commodore announced the machine, but I'm
afraid it may get an undeserved reputation as being "non-compatible". I do
know that the folks at Commodore are working very hard to insure as much
compatability as is possible, and that programs that followed the rules, do
all seem to work. Again…there are exceptions, but that's the nature of
beta software…it's not done yet.
Don
Does seem a little suicidal on Commodores part, doesn't it ? Mostly, I'
think I've decided to wait awhile
Bill
At this point, we only here what doesn't work… (oops hear) I have run
many utilities etc. on our 3000 under the beta 2.0 as well as major
applications with varying degrees of success.. everytime I call to say '
this software crashes' they say oh yeah.,.. we fixed that you need the new
version… or they are finding bugs in software… shortcuts andsuch. many
applications will want to do new releases to take advantage of 2.0 anyway.
Understood – What's your experience running 1.3 on the 3000 Bill Dwyer
Commodore is going to have a VERY bad quarter this quarter, IMHO.
However that is the only suicidal thing they did. Apple announced the IIfx
and A/UX2.0, Commodore had to do something or else look bad. Instead,
they've been a hit in tons of magazines that never even knew the Amiga
existed before.
— Ethan
Its a pity all the makers can't profit from positive publicity instead of
real sales, isn't it. I'm reminded of such notables as the Mindscape.
Certainly, Commodore has no corner on that problem. I'm interested that you
see the IIfx as a forcing move. Its a nice machine, certainly, but "no big
deal" in the Mac community since its only an evolutionary step. The best
thing about the IIfx is that it forced reductions in some crazy accelerator
prices. Bill
And you were running 7.0 on it, right?
-larry
Nope- the IIfx required a minor update to the current system, designated
6.05, which was shipped with the machine on the day of announcement
(actually a little before to get it into dealers hands before the
announcement) 6.05 is also downward compatible with all Macs with 1M or
more. 7.0 is a ways off yet but wasn't required by the II fx
Bill
Actually, that was what I was saying. It is not the A3000 that causes the
software problems anymore that the IIfx does. The new system software,
however can wreak havok. My point was that you were confusing KS2.0 with
the A3000 and I intentionally confused System 7.0 with the IIfx to
dramatize the point.
Yes, the standards are less rigidly enforced, which can cause problems with
software but the standards ARE there, it is juste developers that ignore
them who get buggy software.
-Chas
e/xit
Bill, the situation you describe with the fx is exactly what folks here are
trying to say. The OS is independent from the hardware. Take your message
and replace all occurances of the term "6.05" with "1.3.2" and "IIfx" with
"3000" and you have an equally true description of the Amiga sitution.
Now, you'd agree that the unreleased System 7 has some kinks that need to
be worked out. The same is true for 2.0.
Regards, Art.
Bill:
Actually, if you read the messages around here carefully, the bottom line
has been this:
a) If a productivity program will run on a 2500/30 (which I have at work,
and have found that EVERY paint, animation, wordprocessing, DTP, structured
drawing, spreadsheet, database, etc. program I own runs on it), then it
will probably run on the 3000 under the 2.0 BETA release of the OS.
b) The commerical version of 2.0 expected to ship with the 3000s in July
will be even more compatible, but may still be on the HD and mapped to 32
bit RAM -and if that is true, the final, ROM based version of 2.0 should be
even better.
c) Virtually ALL of the programs mentioned here as NOT running on the 3000
were GAMES. Games usually violate the rules. Some serious software also
violates the rules. Most software which violates the rules breaks. A few
program which do not may also break at the moment (I'm not entirely sure of
that, but it may be the case), but the jury is still out on that point
until the final version of 2.0 is out.
?|^] Ray Lewis
I really appreciate the "hands on information" – I'm debating between a
2000 now or a 3000 in a few months to do video production.
Thanks
Bill Dwyer
Ray:
If most people that now use a '020 or '030 card are using the SetCPU
program, which as I understand it mappes the KS ROM to 32bit RAM, what's
the advantage of having 2.0 in ROM rather than on HD like it is in the beta
release, seems to me that as the 3000's will all come with a HD that having
the KS on HD, might be the way to go. Please let me know if I'm missing
something major about this.
-Mike Schiller
CIS: 76416,3065
Mike,
Those of us with '020 or '030 cards use SetCPU to move the kickstart ROM to
32 bit ram for speed! The kickstart rom on the A2000 is on the 16 bit bus
and can only be accessed at the same speed as the 68000 could. Once moved
to 32 bit ram, the ROM image is now accessable on a 32 bit bus, and at a
much higher speed, probably with 0 or 1 wait states.
On the 3000, the ROM will be on a 32 bit bus, so access is already twice as
fast compared to a 16 bit bus. The speed the rom can be accessed depends
on the acces time of the ROMs that will be used, and how many wait states
will be used.
So, as I see it, on the 3000 there may be a minor speedup having the
kickstart in RAM, it would probably be under 50% faster. On the 2500/20 it
is probably on the order of 300% faster. The other consideration is how
much ram one is willing to give up. 1.3 is 256K bytes of ram, while 2.0 is
512k bytes. On my machine (2500/20) I will probably still map the rom to
32 bit ram (Hopefully there will be a SetCPU v 1.6), leaving me with 3.5
meg 32 bit ram. If I had a 3000, even though it can have much more 32 bit
ram, the speed improvement would not be worth loosing 512K bytes of ram (to
me anyway).
73, Kelly
Bill,
Thanks for the tip! I like the Mac, but I exepected my hardware to
work. But with all the electronic things you run into these kind of
problems. I am sure I'll have a few with the 3000 as well.
Jamie
Running on multiple environments at least gives you a little perspective
missing from many of the "religious fanatics" that seem to dominate almost
all the boards in Compuserve
Bill,
Doesn't it bother you that so little software runs on Mac's 7.0?
2.0 is NOT out yet.
-larry
I could'nt have said it better, Larry…:-)
The "other" rumor I keep hearing is a couple of atari users over on GEnie
who are telling everyone that the 25mhz 3000 (with 030 caches disbled) is
no faster than a 16mhz 3000….When will these people lay off the sour
grapes?
I have no idea what runs on 7.0 since it is really not out (as opposed to
not out but being demo'd at every dealership and user group)
Larry, &.0 has not been released yet either. It was announced at last
week's developer's conference in Cupertino that it would be delayed until
the end of the year. And I can tell you that you are sadly mistaken about
the amount of software that does run on 7.0. The same rule applies to it
that applies to AmigaDOS 2.0. If you played by the rules, your software
will run. If you took shortcuts (for whatever reason, speed of execution,
not supported abilities or just plain laziness,) the software won't run.
So let's stop with the 7.0 bashing, eh?
Chow, Cheryl P!
Jamie,
you should talk to my brother. He had an A500 (no hd) and went to work afor
a company that gave him an SE30 on a network with HD etc. About the same
time he was unfortunate enough to fall for the MSS Platinum Scribble!
upgrade offer and ended up totally dissallutioned with the Amiga. He used
it for targe practice with his 357 Magnum one day.
Now he calls me every month or so to tell mey how sh**ty AMiga is and how
great Mac is. Guess I tell him to call you instead…. ;^}
wmc
Hmmm, he used a 357 on it, eh? Sounds *just* like the kind of indvidual I'd
want to avoid trying to help overcome any initial learning curve….